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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

Sonny678

Firstly Congratulations to the Dubs. Dublin are the team of the decade. One of the All time great teams. Their achievements will go down in the history books. They are a credit to their county and clubs. This is a golden era for Dublin football.

However there those seem to be allot of people trying to rewrite history and downplay Kerrys 75 to 86 achievements. In order to prove Dublin are the best. I think allot of supporters who started following the game in the last 10 or 15 years are pushing this idea that Dublin are the greatest. They probaly dont know the achievements of Down or past Cavan teams. And never heard of Downs Sean O Neill or Cavans Higgins.

However the facts do not back this up. By saying the facts is not downgrading Dublins wins. They have achieved greatness. But facts are facts.
1 Kerry team of 70s and 80s. Did three great things 1 Win All.Ireland in 1975 with one of the youngest teams ever to win Sam ? by beating one of the greatest teams ever..2 They won a 4 in a row between 78 to 81. 3 They won 3 in a row 84 85 86.

They also had some of the greatest players of all time playing in their chosen positions. This Dublin team have one player playing that could be said to be the best ever in his position. Eg Stephen Cluxton is the greatest goalkeeper ever. Kerry had Jack O Se the greatest midfielder ever and possibly the greatest footballer ever. They had Pat Spillane the greatest number 12 in the history of the game . And Mickey Sheedy the greatest number 15 in the history of the game. They also had Paudi O Se possibly the greatest number 5 ever. While John O Keefe Ogie Moran Ger Power John Egan Bomber Liston are some of the greatest players of the modern era.

Kerry had to face tougher opposition then Dublin. Kerry had to beat one of the greatest teams ever, the Dublin team 74 -77. This Dublin have not faced an All time great team. That is a fact. Also every year Kerry faced an excellent Cork team who were a top Division 1 team and where regularly in the top 3 in country. Dublin have not had to face top Division 1 team in their provience since the early noughties. Also in ther 70s you had very good Meath and Armagh teams.

In the west you had a brillant Roscomon team ,one of the greatst teams to come west of the Shannon in the last 50 years. A brillant defence backboned by the Great Harry Keegan and at midfield one of the greatest talent to ever cross the Shannon , the late great Dermot Earley senior. That Roscomon team won 5 Connachts and Roscommons first league and gave the greatest team ever one of their toughest finals. You also had a brillant Offaly team led by the most naturally talented footballer ever, Matt Connor. Offaly 82 was a brillant team. In the mid 80s Tyrone and Monaghan had two excellent teams. Which in any other era would have won an All Ireland. The Monaghan team 85 is Monaghans greatest team ever. And the Tyrone 84- 86 was up to that point Tyrone greatst team ever led by warriors like Donaghy John Lynch Eugene McKenna and Frank McGuigan. That team was a much superior outfit to the current Tyrone team. Would any current footballer be as brillant as the great Frank McGuigan.

In comparison Dublin have been great but so many counties are hitting record low levels.

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Tombo2001

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Eh..... none

And to correct an earlier post, kerry won 4 titles in the Noughties, 2000 is/was technically still in the nineties.

Interesting enough barroom debate but nothing much more than that. Impossible really to compare teams from different eras, for instance the teams from the nineties played a completely different game to now, let alone the teams from the 60s or 70s.

You can't really be definitive, but it can be enjoyable to remember great teams from the past. For instance in 20 years time, I'd imagine this Mayo side will be remembered fondly by many. Perhaps another discussion would be 'Are Mayo the best side never to win an All Ireland'?

On that point

The GAA in general owes this Mayo team a huge amount for what they've brought to the game in the past few years -

If you look at the really exciting games we saw this year
Dublin - Mayo
Kerry - Mayo
Roscommon - Mayo
Derry - Mayo

Other than that what was there? The Monaghan Carlow match wasnt bad; Tipp Armagh maybe ......It would have been a poor poor championship if you took Mayo's contribution away.

Same last year with their top performance in the final; and their top performance against Kerry the previous year.

Quazzie

When Dublin can do it, playing away games, and with the same budget as the rest of the counties then they'll be considered great. Until then they'll just be considered a professional team in an amateur sport.

WesternZulu

Darragh O Se has a piece in The Irish Times today where he says Mayo are the second best team of the last 30 years.

There is an agreement to say they're the best team not to win an All-Ireland but there have been better teams in the last 30 years. Any team that has won multiple finals in that timeframe is automatically better and you could say so too is any team that has even won one.

As a Mayo man they're easily the best we've had since the 50's but some perspective is needed.

ThunbergsAreGo

The world greatest is entirely subjective and you will never get agreement on it

Not least on an internet forum

Bridge93

tritium wrote: »

The dublin team of the 1890s surely deserves a fairly high ranking to if we're willing to go back that far.

If Mayo and Kerry from the 30s are in then absolutely they should. None of us were around to see any of them, just word of mouth and records

Tombo2001

WesternZulu wrote: »

Darragh O Se has a piece in The Irish Times today where he says Mayo are the second best team of the last 30 years.

There is an agreement to say they're the best team not to win an All-Ireland but there have been better teams in the last 30 years. Any team that has won multiple finals in that timeframe is automatically better and you could say so too is any team that has even won one.

As a Mayo man they're easily the best we've had since the 50's but some perspective is needed.

Personally, I'd take Darragh O'Se's view over any journalists as he's been there, done it.

Kerry people are not know for being humble about football. He was on a Kerry team that won 4 all irelands in the noughties. He is saying this Mayo team is better. I'd agree with him. None of the teams that Kerry beat to win those all irelands were anywhere near as good as this Mayo team, thats for sure.

Tombo2001

WesternZulu wrote: »

Darragh O Se has a piece in The Irish Times today where he says Mayo are the second best team of the last 30 years.

There is an agreement to say they're the best team not to win an All-Ireland but there have been better teams in the last 30 years. Any team that has won multiple finals in that timeframe is automatically better and you could say so too is any team that has even won one.

As a Mayo man they're easily the best we've had since the 50's but some perspective is needed.

I just dont get that piece. There have been plenty of soft all irelands.

A good example for me would be Cork in 2010 - the current Mayo team is streets ahead of either Cork or Down that day.

davedanon

Quazzie wrote: »

When Dublin can do it, playing away games, and with the same budget as the rest of the counties then they'll be considered great. Until then they'll just be considered a professional team in an amateur sport.

Sounds like sore loser stuff to me

MfMan

WesternZulu wrote: »

Darragh O Se has a piece in The Irish Times today where he says Mayo are the second best team of the last 30 years.

There is an agreement to say they're the best team not to win an All-Ireland but there have been better teams in the last 30 years. Any team that has won multiple finals in that timeframe is automatically better and you could say so too is any team that has even won one.

As a Mayo man they're easily the best we've had since the 50's but some perspective is needed.

Sounds a bit fanciful alright. E.g. don't know how Mayo currently would match up v Galway 98-01, but that Galway team had something which this Mayo absolutely critically don't have - a consistent and wide-spread scoring threat.

Utopia Parkway

Bridge93 wrote: »

The Wexford team of the 1910's being criminally overlooked. 4 in a row and that after losing the previous two finals.

Sure they probably played with a pig's head back then.

Quazzie

davedanon wrote: »

Sounds like sore loser stuff to me

:rolleyes:

Sonny678

bruschi wrote:

Some good comments sonny678, but you have one glaring omission. Granted, you say modern era, but you have a Kerry team from the 20's as "the first real gaelic football team". I'll insert my bias and say that the Wexford team from 1913-1918 was the first real powerhouse. Contested 6 AI finals in a row, winning 4 of them. I obviously never saw them play, but reading about them and their achievements in what was a tumultuous time in the country would give you pride to see what your forefathers accomplished. there are some really good books out there of GAA games at that time. The bloodied field is an excellent book that discusses mainly the Tipperary and Dublin team of 1920, but delves into the whole situation of the time.

bruschi wrote:

I have no doubt that the standard back then is no where at all near the standard now, but you can only compare teams of their dominance of their period. at that time, that Wexford team were the standard bearers and had great battles with Kerry, Dublin and Tipperary in particular over those years and after.

bruschi wrote:

Of the Wexford team, the likes of Jim Byrne, Sean O Kennedy, Ned Wheeler, Aidan Doyle are all legendary names in Wexford as a result of their feats.

Your right. I did leave the Wexford team out. On purpose. Anyone who criticises me for that is correct. A bit mean spirited of me to do that. But my list of great teams was from 1927/ 28 to 2017. The year Sam Maguire was first presented. I didn't include anything before late 20s becuase how competitive was the championship when you had a revolution uprising a war of independence and civil war . So for that reason I left the Wexford team out. I'm probaly wrong to do so. So any criticism I get for leaving them out is well deserved. You could say they were great to win so many titles in such extraordinary times. They are truly great historical team. So in a new revised list I would include them outside the top ten teams. I should have included them. But as I said the list was from 27 to 2017.

Stoner

How the hell can anyone pick the best team ever! We've all only seen about 4 of them

Sonny678

Most people say Pele is the greatest footballer ever. Very few have seen him play in the flesh since he played all his club football in Brazil in the 50s and 60s and early 70s.
PS I know he play some football in the US in the late 70s. But that was a semi retirement league for all time great players past their best.

TrueGael

Of the 86 Kerry winning team 11 of the starters were starters on the 78 team quite a few started a few yrs before 78, once they retired the team organically declined , this will not happen with Dublin

The current situation is just a production line of superstars created by the GAA pouring millions and millions into Dublin over a 15 year period

blanch152

TrueGael wrote: »

Of the 86 Kerry winning team 11 of the starters were starters on the 78 team quite a few started a few yrs before 78, once they retired the team organically declined , this will not happen with Dublin

The current situation is just a production line of superstars created by the GAA pouring millions and millions into Dublin over a 15 year period

Only five of the 1975-86 Kerry team got 8 All-Ireland medals and played in all of them.

For Dublin 12 of this year's 26-man panel have 5 medals, one or two missed out in previous years because of injury, and another group have four.

TrueGael

blanch152 wrote: »

Only five of the 1975-86 Kerry team got 8 All-Ireland medals and played in all of them.

For Dublin 12 of this year's 26-man panel have 5 medals, one or two missed out in previous years because of injury, and another group have four.

I specifically referenced 1978 and there were 11 starters on each - that is the effectively 1 team When they retired there was an organic decline

With Dublin there only 9 same starters in 2016 and 2017 - How many have been constants from 2011 - Cluxton, O'Sullivan, Connolly, McCarthy

Nobody else could hope to do that - cyclical my arse

Sonny678

But there are many Kerry players on 6 and 7 All Ireland medals from the period 75 to 86. That team achieved three great things 1 Youngest team ever to win Sam in 75 beating one greatest teams ever 2 Winning a three in a row and 3 Winning a four in a row. Until this Dublin beat one of the greatest teams ever ( a multiple All.Ireland winner) or win 9 Sam's or a 5 in a row. Kerry are the greatest. It's ridiculous to say otherwise.
This idea that players were not as fit as current players so modern players are better does not making any sporting sense whatsoever. So the players in 2020 and 2030s will be better then today's players because they will be fitter. And players in 2040s and 50s will be even better becuase they will be even fitter as sport science improves. This argument lacks any insight or understanding of sport.
You can make anyone superfit if they are healthy and determined. The worst footballer in the country can be made superfit. But you cannot train a player football ability. You either have it or you don't. Football skill and natural ability is a god given gift. So Sean Purcell the master if he was around today and had the same access to fitness coaches your saying he would not stand out. Of course he would and so would Mick Higgins or Sean O Neill. The ability to kick the ball over the bar from fifty metres or scoring goals or have vision to pick out the right pass. You can train the worst footballer ever to be fitest athlete in the world and he still would not be able to do the above.

Bonniedog

Having seen three of the teams you refer to Sonny - and welcome back by the way, you are mine of history - I would disagree with your ratings.

Dwyer's Kerry are still the outstanding team. Dublin since 2011 second, comfortably ahead of Heffo's teams, then Tyrone of noughties, Kerry of same era, and yes, Mayo.

With honourable mention for Donegal, Cork and Armagh.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

But there are many Kerry players on 6 and 7 All Ireland medals from the period 75 to 86. That team achieved three great things 1 Youngest team ever to win Sam in 75 beating one greatest teams ever 2 Winning a three in a row and 3 Winning a four in a row. Until this Dublin beat one of the greatest teams ever ( a multiple All.Ireland winner) or win 9 Sam's or a 5 in a row. Kerry are the greatest. It's ridiculous to say otherwise.
This idea that players were not as fit as current players so modern players are better does not making any sporting sense whatsoever. So the players in 2020 and 2030s will be better then today's players because they will be fitter. And players in 2040s and 50s will be even better becuase they will be even fitter as sport science improves. This argument lacks any insight or understanding of sport.
You can make anyone superfit if they are healthy and determined. The worst footballer in the country can be made superfit. But you cannot train a player football ability. You either have it or you don't. Football skill and natural ability is a god given gift. So Sean Purcell the master if he was around today and had the same access to fitness coaches your saying he would not stand out. Of course he would and so would Mick Higgins or Sean O Neill. The ability to kick the ball over the bar from fifty metres or scoring goals or have vision to pick out the right pass. You cannot train the worst footballer ever to be fitest athlete in the world and he still would not be able to the above.

All I am saying is that to date, in terms of time and achievements, this Dublin team have matched the Kerry team. In seven years from 1975 to 1981, Kerry won five All-Irelands, in the same length of time, 2011-2017, so have this Dublin team. As I mentioned already only five of that team survived the whole period from 1975 to 1986. Dublin are similarly evolving.

Of course, that isn't everything, but in my opinion, Dublin have faced a far higher standard of competition and have had to navigate an extra round of matches giving them the edge.

To give just one example, a 1960s Down team really only had Kerry to beat. This year Dublin beat Kildare, Monaghan, Tyrone and Mayo, all of whom will play in Division 1 of the League in 2018. Kerry and Donegal have been All-Ireland champions this decade and Dublin have had to content with them, not to mention a Mayo team that reached 7 successive All-Ireland semi-finals. The Kerry team of the 1970s really only had Dublin to face. Someone compared the Roscommon team of the late 1970s to Mayo but being honest, that team only had Dermot Earley and only had a season or two. The sustained excellence throughout this decade of Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Mayo and Monaghan has meant Dublin have faced real competition every year.

On skills, I have never seen a forward line with so many players - Kilkenny, Connolly, Brogan, Andrews, O'Callaghan etc. - who can kick a point with either foot. The quality of kick-passing from the likes of Fenton, McCarthy, O'Sullivan and Flynn is awesome. Cluxton, as we know, has redefined goalkeeping. In defence the quality of the tackling from the likes of McCaffrey, Cooper and Fitzsimons is of a similar high level. The skills being exhibited by this Dublin team are second to none.

One of the tests you set - that this Dublin team needs to beat a multiple All-Ireland winner - to demonstrate greatness will never be met by this Dublin team because the quality of this Dublin team is such that while a team may beat them once in championship - Donegal or Mayo - they won't do it a second team because Dublin will learn from those defeats and are too good to be caught a second time as Kerry were in 1977.

Finally, while I will accept that not all with agree with me that this Dublin team is the greatest, I don't buy the argument that they are anything less than second best behind that great Kerry team.

Sonny678

Bonniedog wrote:

Having seen three of the teams you refer to Sonny - and welcome back by the way, you are mine of history - I would disagree with your ratings.

Bonniedog wrote:

Dwyer's Kerry are still the outstanding team. Dublin since 2011 second, comfortably ahead of Heffo's teams, then Tyrone of noughties, Kerry of same era, and yes, Mayo.

Bonniedog wrote:

With honourable mention for Donegal, Cork and Armagh.

Bonniedog wrote:

Having seen three of the teams you refer to Sonny - and welcome back by the way, you are mine of history - I would disagree with your ratings.

Bonniedog wrote:

Dwyer's Kerry are still the outstanding team. Dublin since 2011 second, comfortably ahead of Heffo's teams, then Tyrone of noughties, Kerry of same era, and yes, Mayo.

Bonniedog wrote:

With honourable mention for Donegal, Cork and Armagh.

Bonniedog wrote:

Having seen three of the teams you refer to Sonny - and welcome back by the way, you are mine of history - I would disagree with your ratings.

Bonniedog wrote:

Dwyer's Kerry are still the outstanding team. Dublin since 2011 second, comfortably ahead of Heffo's teams, then Tyrone of noughties, Kerry of same era, and yes, Mayo.

Bonniedog wrote:

With honourable mention for Donegal, Cork and Armagh.

Thanks Bonnie man. Your a gentleman.
Im always lurking in the background ready to get involved if any Dubs lose the run of themselves.

So your only picking teams you saw.
Again Pele is the greatest ever. Very few saw him play club or international football. Very few of his games or televised. If you watch the 1970 q final v England. It was on TV the whole game recently. That team is considered the greatest ever . But if you watch the above game the slowness of the game now stands out. But still Pele and Brazil 1970 are the best.

Rocky Marciano and Joe Lewis are two of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time. How many people saw them fight in the flesh. Babe Ruth is probaly the greatest baseball player of all time. How many people alive today saw in play in the 1920s. Christy Ring is the greatest hurler of all time. There is very little film of the great man. I know King Henry modern achievements, but I still think in 10 or 20 years Ring will be number 1. We need to honour the men of the past. And preserve their memory and achievements. The latest is not nessarily the greatest. The current flavour of the month is not nessarily the greatest of all time. Anytime a team wins an All Ireland they are praised . Deservedly so. But it is 10 to 20 years time we will know how rated this Dublin team is. Some teams reputation grows others falter.

I remeber in the mid 00s 2005 summer a journalist writing that Armagh team were second greatest team of all time. Only kerry were better. Now that was brillant team. But I think most would agree Tyrone of the noughties was a better team. It's how history will judge this great Dublin that will be the true measure of their greatness.

Bonniedog

We can only judge what we see Sonny!

My memory only goes back to 1970s and much as it galls me, there was never a team like Dwyer's. This Dublin team might match them in winning titles, we don't know.

My Da whose memory goes back further always thought that the Down team of 60s was best team he ever saw. Didn't seem to rate Galway 3 in a row highly for some reason, and it was a period when big powers were in downtime.

Anyway, its all for talks sake. I know that whether or not they ever win one that I'll remember this Mayo team as one of best teams to walk onto that pitch.

Sonny678

Bonniedog wrote:

Having seen three of the teams you refer to Sonny - and welcome back by the way, you are mine of history - I would disagree with your ratings.

Bonniedog wrote:

Dwyer's Kerry are still the outstanding team. Dublin since 2011 second, comfortably ahead of Heffo's teams, then Tyrone of noughties, Kerry of same era, and yes, Mayo.

Bonniedog wrote:

With honourable mention for Donegal, Cork and Armagh.

And no mention of Meath 87 88. A team of O Malley OConnell Lyons Cassells Dowd McEntee Hayes O Rourke Stafford and Flynn. They don't rate. The best full back of the 80s Lyons, one of the best corner backs of the modern era O Malley,the best full forward line of the last thirty years O Rourke Stafford Flynn or the only modern player on the team of the Millennium the best number 7 ever Martin O Connell . A double winning team are not as good as the current Mayo team . And Meath 87 88 are not as good as the Cork team 89 90 that in 5 games between Meath v Cork , Meath were defeated 1 time out of 5 games ( 4 All Ireland finals and national league semi final between 87-90). Cork 89 90 a better team then a team they couldnt beat. That's a strange viewpoint indeed. Meath should have won no All Irelands they would been as good as Mayo. And Meath should have not won all their matchs with Cork but lost them all and then they would been a better team.
And Armagh and Donegal did not win a double two in a row. In most discussions a two in a row team is better then 1 in a row team in senior, junior ,club, ladies football, whatever code of level, that would be the general rule.

Bonniedog

Meath was major omission! Possibly best full forward line in history with Stafford. O'Rourke and Flynn,

Amprodude

Sonny678 wrote: »

Meath 80s ( 2 time All Ireland winners ) v Cork 80s ( 2 time All Ireland winner) = a great GAA rivalry

Cork only won once in the 1980s. 1989 that was. They lost twice to Meath 1987-88. They beat them in 1990.

Always_Running

Stoner wrote: »

Mayo should regret 2012.
I never felt worried in 2013 at all. It was close on the scoreboard but that was about it Imo

Sunday was far closer imo. I was worried for most of it.

Whats to regret about 2012? Donegal were in their zone that year probably one of the most organized and well drilled All Ireland winners of the last decade. Has been plenty of near misses since including Sunday but i think 1996 is still Mayos biggest regret of all.

BrianBoru00

Jack O'Shea the best midfielder ever? ? He s not even the best Kerry midfielder ever.
Mick O'Connell would be regarded as the best down in the Kingdom and basically anyone over 60. What about Tommy Murphy? or Anthony Tohill or either of the Dermot Earleys or Brian Mullen or Darragh O Se or TJ Kilgallon . .

Cluxton has revolutionised the game but as a shot stopper he's not in the same category as Clarke. . .(though I do think the concensus would be that hes the best in memory)
Its the same with picking teams

For me based solely on the teams I ve seen play regularly enough (i.e. omitting the Kerry team of the 80s as I only have vivid recollections of the 86 final.)
I would rank the Kerry team 2006-9 as the best Ive seen in pure footballing terms.
It would be hard to pick out one from Meath 87/88, Cork 89/90, Meath 96-99, Galway 98-2001, Tyrone 2003-08, Kerry 1997-2004,
There were great rivalries there and very competitive Championships which makes it hard to gauge the current Dublin team.

How would they do against any of those things - again nigh on impossible to answer given the change in the game over the past 6 years.

Sonny678

Bonniedog wrote:

We can only judge what we see Sonny!

Bonniedog wrote:

My memory only goes back to 1970s and much as it galls me, there was never a team like Dwyer's. This Dublin team might match them in winning titles, we don't know.

Bonniedog wrote:

My Da whose memory goes back further always thought that the Down team of 60s was best team he ever saw. Didn't seem to rate Galway 3 in a row highly for some reason, and it was a period when big powers were in downtime.

Bonniedog wrote:

Anyway, its all for talks sake. I know that whether or not they ever win one that I'll remember this Mayo team as one of best teams to walk onto that pitch.

I think it serves the Dubs to big up this Mayo team. A wonderful brave team. A credit to their county. Anyone would be proud to have this Mayo team as their county team. Very admirable bunch. Bravery passionate skilful a terrific group of men. But, you know the but.

But put the emotions and passion away and ths Dublin agenda ( been forward by the Dublin media) to upgrade a team that never won Sam to one of the greatst teams ever. It does not make sense.
Down win 2 in a row in the sixties. After winning first provience in 59. From a part Ireland that was at the time seen as nearly impossible to Sam. Beating kerry team with Mick Dwyer and Mick O Connell. Down 60 61 are not as good a team as the current Mayo team. That's makes no sense whatsoever. I'm not buying that. It's a no brainer the Down team 60 61 is one the greatest teams ever. To say otherwise would be factually wrong. Even Donald Trump wouldn't disagree with that.

Sonny678

Amprodude wrote:

Cork only won once in the 1980s. 1989 that was. They lost twice to Meath 1987-88. They beat them in 1990.

Cork team was 87 to 91. It was pretty much considered an 80s team. The same Meath team was 86 to 91 was pretty much considered a 80s team. People are just nitpicking now. Looking for the smallest factual error.

Amprodude

Sonny678 wrote: »

Cork team was 87 to 91. It was pretty much considered an 80s team. The same Meath team was 86 to 91 was pretty much considered a 80s team. People are just nitpicking now. Looking for the smallest factual error.

Just pointing it out to you that 1990 isn't the 1980s.