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Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

dowlingm

So there's been quite a bit of discussion of greenways on threads like Western Rail Corridor (Train & Rail Systems) and I was thinking it might be useful to have a thread which pulls together both technical discussion (for example how greenways can co-exist with adjacent roadways or railways) and news (expansions of existing greenways / announcements of new ones)

According to the Connaught Tribune there are moves on getting on Galway-Clifden along the old rail line alignment. Is there anything else starting to reach firm proposals as opposed to discussion?

MOD EDIT: Fantastic Greenway map of Ireland by riddlinrussell here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1HAHB3jpXV7qgrTHgopH4Zl7-ItDHGEPv&ll=53.4320326010536%2C-8.939188105408448&z=7

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spacetweek

Railways are only useful for moving people between cities and large towns. Anything else may have to close.

ED E

Is there any model for creating greenways along active railways? Obviously passing at a station (buried in a town) is a problem but maybe there's a solution Im not thinking of.

riddlinrussell

ED E wrote: »

Is there any model for creating greenways along active railways? Obviously passing at a station (buried in a town) is a problem but maybe there's a solution Im not thinking of.

I'd think it would be a non-starter for a few reasons, any government owned, unused railway land is probably reserved for potential line expansion, land alongside the railway will be subject to the same headaches as currently disused lines face for greenway projects with land ownership, and its hard to see too many people wanting to cycle right beside a live railway line, especially if they were using it for tourism. The only area I could see it having potential is for commuter cycling into cities, and thats where the space is already at a premium, so it wouldn't be ideal.

ED E wrote: »

Is there any model for creating greenways along active railways? Obviously passing at a station (buried in a town) is a problem but maybe there's a solution Im not thinking of.

It is quiet common in other countries to see greenways right beside the train tracks on very lightly used lines.

Muckyboots

ED E wrote: »

Is there any model for creating greenways along active railways? Obviously passing at a station (buried in a town) is a problem but maybe there's a solution Im not thinking of.

Most definitely, yes. Happens in other countries. Usually, the alignment double or triple tracks in towns and in many cases you find well used unofficial trails already there. The railway infrastructure would add value to a greenway and the greenway would protect the railway alignment.

Muckyboots wrote: »

Most definitely, yes. Happens in other countries. Usually, the alignment double or triple tracks in towns and in many cases you find well used unofficial trails already there.

I'll never forget walking on a rail track of a closed line while hiking in Norway. Spectacular views, walk through tunnels, though crossing one or two of the bridges was a bit scary, literally rotting and falling apart, like something out of India Jones

McAlban

Muckyboots wrote: »

Tipperary to Waterford Greenway-
https://www.facebook.com/DavMol/
This new FB page is getting savaged by a well-orchestrated campaign by the rail lobby. All's fair and such, but please give it a "like" to keep some balance and fact based discussion on their posts. Rural greenways are in the ascendancy. Rural railway is declining. Some people are in denial.

Complete and utter rubbish, it's a Facebook group with 21 Likes. And another WRC Greenway. Lets just rip up another railway between two cities to allow every rural town to have a greenway and attract, whom exactly? The More greenways you build the less revenue share of tourist money.

McAlban wrote: »

Complete and utter rubbish, it's a Facebook group with 21 Likes. And another WRC Greenway. Lets just rip up another railway between two cities to allow every rural town to have a greenway and attract, whom exactly? The More greenways you build the less revenue share of tourist money.

The more km's of cycling network you have, the more attractive the country becomes as a cycling destination.

People who go on cycling holidays, like to cycle across entire countries for days, if not weeks on end.

BTW non of this is new, cycling holidays like this are very common on mainland Europe. We are only starting to tap into this massive market.

Norrie Thomas

bk wrote: »

The more km's of cycling network you have, the more attractive the country becomes as a cycling destination.

People who go on cycling holidays, like to cycle across entire countries for days, if not weeks on end.

BTW non of this is new, cycling holidays like this are very common on mainland Europe. We are only starting to tap into this massive market.

The big problem in Ireland is that Greenways are being used as a cover to close down railways.

Norrie Thomas wrote: »

The big problem in Ireland is that Greenways are being used as a cover to close down railways.

I don't really see that.

The thing is most of these railways are already closed and have been for years and their is little hope of them ever reopening, due to demographics, population densities, etc.

So rather then letting these lines sit their rotting and gradually been built over by peoples gardens, etc. It seems like a better use of them to use them as greenways and keep them in public ownership.

Then in future if the population of Ireland explodes and rail on these routes suddenly makes sense, then the line can be reopened. Perhaps even have the rail line and greenway side by side.

BarryD2

I'm all for Greenways although there are some issues. They need to be open to both cyclists and walkers/ runners/ joggers. There can be a little intolerance shown at times by some users.

I also think each Greenway proposal should be examined carefully for cost/ benefit. They're not all equal in terms of scenery and quality and costs. Following the success of the Great Western Greenway, there does seem to be a tendency to replicate the idea across the country. Which may or may not always work.

Norrie Thomas

bk wrote: »

I don't really see that.

The thing is most of these railways are already closed and have been for years and their is little hope of them ever reopening, due to demographics, population densities, etc.

So rather then letting these lines sit their rotting and gradually been built over by peoples gardens, etc. It seems like a better use of them to use them as greenways and keep them in public ownership.

Then in future if the population of Ireland explodes and rail on these routes suddenly makes sense, then the line can be reopened. Perhaps even have the rail line and greenway side by side.

Sounds good in theory but in practice Greenways on old railway lines tend to block development. Fairly close to home the Comber Greenway between Belfast and Newtownards blocked the implementation of a BRT line on that route. Instead of using the old double tracked rail route the BRT is now planned to run on the already congested Newtownards Road. That's what happens when Greenways take over railways.

Norrie Thomas wrote: »

Sounds good in theory but in practice Greenways on old railway lines tend to block development. Fairly close to home the Comber Greenway between Belfast and Newtownards blocked the implementation of a BRT line on that route. Instead of using the old double tracked rail route the BRT is now planned to run on the already congested Newtownards Road. That's what happens when Greenways take over railways.

I wouldn't support a greenway on an alignment where there is a serious possibility of services returning like above.

But most of the greenways we are talking about here are going through some of the most rural and least densely populated areas of Europe. So I really don't see these lines having any possibility of reopening.

Norrie Thomas

bk wrote: »

I wouldn't support a greenway on an alignment where there is a serious possibility of services returning like above.

But most of the greenways we are talking about here are going through some of the most rural and least densely populated areas of Europe. So I really don't see these lines having any possibility of reopening.

Yes, most. I can think of the Deise Greenway and Valentia as prime examples of good use of a Greenway. But the WRC Greenway proposals are entirely there as a deliberate spoiler for the West on Track campaign to redevelop the West. I can speak with experience having been stalked by those campaigners myself.

Muckyboots

Norrie Thomas wrote: »

Yes, most. I can think of the Deise Greenway and Valentia as prime examples of good use of a Greenway. But the WRC Greenway proposals are entirely there as a deliberate spoiler for the West on Track campaign to redevelop the West. I can speak with experience having been stalked by those campaigners myself.

Absolute nonsense. 650 people walked in support of the Greenway campaign in Tuam. 3,000 people signed a petition without any coercion. Most of them don't know who West on Track are, or care less. You can't have a monopoly on ideas, no matter how good you think your own might be.

Muckyboots

McAlban wrote: »

Complete and utter rubbish, it's a Facebook group with 21 Likes. And another WRC Greenway. Lets just rip up another railway between two cities to allow every rural town to have a greenway and attract, whom exactly?

It's a new page so the number of likes is irrelevant. There was also a blatant attack by people acting as coordinated trolls after the page was shared on another respectful railway appreciation page. People have, rightfully in my view, accused some greenway campaigners of acting in a less than savoury manner - but this time the railway campaigners let themselves down badly and tried to bully someone just who wanted to share their own views and views formed on local experience, as opposed to many of the railway trolls. Do on to others and all that.

McAlban wrote: »

The More greenways you build the less revenue share of tourist money.

So - No tourists wanted here? You're not a hotelier, I take it.

marno21

Greenways don't have to be exclusively aimed at tourism - they are also a fantastic local amenity allowing locals to cycle and walk on a path with little or no interaction with traffic.

In places like Tuam where the roads with hard shoulders are very busy and have turning traffic or the quiet roads are unlit and narrow, greenways are a fantastic alternative and would benefit far more people than a white elephant "freight train service".

MJohnston

I don't understand the idea that a greenway blocks future rail lines or other transport infrastructure - surely a greenway means a suitable route is actually far more likely to be remain secured and free for future use?

McAlban

Muckyboots wrote: »

It's a new page so the number of likes is irrelevant. There was also a blatant attack by people acting as coordinated trolls after the page was shared on another respectful railway appreciation page. People have, rightfully in my view, accused some greenway campaigners of acting in a less than savoury manner - but this time the railway campaigners let themselves down badly and tried to bully someone just who wanted to share their own views and views formed on local experience, as opposed to many of the railway trolls. Do on to others and all that.
So - No tourists wanted here? You're not a hotelier, I take it.

Ah yes, Throw out the argument that anyone who disagrees with the particular Greenway in question is:

Anti-Greenway
A Pro-Rail Fanatic
Anti-Tourism

This seems to be the SOP for Some Greenway Supporters, but lets face it, mostly from the TUAM/SLIGO area.

I've looked at the page, seems to be un-moderated debate. I don't see any hint of collusion between the people attacking this idea. Just people who think the idea is wrong. And then You are on here encouraging members here to go troll on the Greenways behalf.

I don't know how many times I have to say it! I fully support Greenways, But we have un-finished existing Greenways fully supported by most locals, local councils, local business. We have Greenways with Planning and Zoning stuck in bureaucratic Hell, Greenways being blocked by Land Grabbing Farmers, Lack of Funding etc.

There are plenty of Greenways that need the efforts of Greenway Campaigners to get started or finished, and plenty more razed railways that could benefit from their support. Instead of this Parish Pump s**t.

If this guy wants a Greenway, how about linking up the existing Deise Greenway to Mallow? That Would be Sensible. The Blackwater valley is one of the most picturesque parts of the country.

Muckyboots

McAlban wrote: »

I don't know how many times I have to say it! I fully support Greenways, But we have un-finished existing Greenways fully supported by most locals, local councils, local business. We have Greenways with Planning and Zoning stuck in bureaucratic Hell, Greenways being blocked by Land Grabbing Farmers, Lack of Funding etc.

And we have a disused railway line with no realistic prospect of it reopening and a rotting railway infrastructure requiring crowd funding to keep the roofs on stations. Save the WRC- with a Greenway.

Norrie Thomas

Muckyboots wrote: »

And we have a disused railway line with no realistic prospect of it reopening and a rotting railway infrastructure requiring crowd funding to keep the roofs on stations. Save the WRC- with a Greenway.

I wish I shared your faith in the concept of a Greenway "saving" lines. They don't save them, unless you can come up with an example where a Greenway led to a running railway somewhere. It's an established fact that Sustrans in the U.K. fight any Greenway to Railway proposals tooth and nail. Sustrans and their supporters blocked the Belfast to Comber line from being reused as a Busway.

MJohnston

Norrie Thomas wrote: »

I wish I shared your faith in the concept of a Greenway "saving" lines. They don't save them, unless you can come up with an example where a Greenway led to a running railway somewhere.

They almost definitely save the alignment of the lines. The problem with saying that "Greenways don't lead to running railways" is that generally the railway line became available because the service wasn't viable, and no Greenway is ever going to be able to solve that problem - I mean it's also pretty rare for former railways to be successfully resurrected.

Muckyboots

Local greenway advocate and Minister Ciaran Cannon are cycling from Enniskillen to Tuam today, parallel to the disused railway, to highlight the benefits a Greenway linking all the towns and villages would bring to the region.

[Deleted User]

From another thread

Muckyboots wrote: »

http://fermanaghherald.com/2017/09/cycle-trail-link-fermanagh-galway/ "The ambitious new Greenway could join the fields of Athenry with the Lakelands of Fermanagh".... "and could link with the planned Ulster Canal Greenway, which will link Clones and Enniskillen".

[Deleted User]

Just want to add, Greenways, while being a great tourist amenity, the facilities themselves are hugely popular with locals.

I love cycling, I've driven up to Westport and cycled on the one up there. Fantastic local amenity!

I'm counting the days until there's one open in Galway

Little Mc

Norrie Thomas wrote: »

I wish I shared your faith in the concept of a Greenway "saving" lines. They don't save them, unless you can come up with an example where a Greenway led to a running railway somewhere. It's an established fact that Sustrans in the U.K. fight any Greenway to Railway proposals tooth and nail. Sustrans and their supporters blocked the Belfast to Comber line from being reused as a Busway.

Is a busway a railway? Hint - it isn't.

Banjoxed

Little Mc wrote: »

Is a busway a railway? Hint - it isn't.

it would have been grade separated. Now it won't and will have to play dodge the traffic. Clearly an inferior outcome.

Zubeneschamali

Banjoxed wrote: »

it would have been grade separated. Now it won't and will have to play dodge the traffic. Clearly an inferior outcome.

For the buses and passengers, yes. Not for the Greenway users.

marno21

Feasibility study tender gone out for Waterford-Rosslare greenway.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase.asp?PID=118779

Subzero3

Is there any greenways planned for the limerick area? Would love to strap on one of those child trailers to the bike and get a good hours cycle (safely).