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Proposed tax system change reported on 08 Sep 17

Juran

I read about this today (08 Sep 2017). It's badly needed but I don't know if Ireland can lose its dependency on PAYE workers. I am Irish, I have worked in Ireland for 20 years, I have a degree, and a masters, I worked hard for both. I worked my way up through the private technology industry from technical, to engineer, to senior and manager. In the end I felt like every pay increase and bonus was going to the tax system with no return. I have moved to Europe, not because I had to, because I want to save. In Ireland I can live, but in Europe I can live and save for the future. I am here with hundreds of talented Irish engineers who have left Ireland due to the tax system. High income taxes will result in a huge brain drain which will impact Ireland's ability to attract new investment and employers. But because PAYE seems to fund so much of the country ..... how does Ireland get away from this dependency???

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[Deleted User]

Del2005 wrote: »

Our health service is very well funded but some how doesn't work. More taxes will be wasted until there is major reform of our public and civil services, we might even be able to reduce them if they were more efficient.

In business there is a constant push for efficiency and cost reductions, publicly funded entities seem to be constantly looking for ways to spend more money.

I fully agree that the HSE is a mess and our public/civil services absolutely need reform. But that reform needs to happen before taxes can be cut, otherwise we just end up with an underfunded (and thus, most likely, even less efficient) version of what we have now.

MrPudding

Avatar MIA wrote: »

That as may be, but it's the government that pays for it, which they do with taxes.

I pay 52% tax on my marginal income and while I'd like to pay less (who wouldn't) I'm not in favour of paying less taxes so the less well off pay some or more.

Hey, I don't disagree with you. You were the one that said if he were in the UK be would be saddled with a bunch of debt. I was simply pointing out that, given his age, that would not actually be the case.

MrP

Avatar MIA

CalamariFritti wrote: »

You can't compare a small business struggling to make ends meet between rates and taxes and insurance with a big corporation.

So, increasing taxes is going to help small business how? Or do you mean singling out larger corporations and screwing them. They'll probably be fine with that. :pac:

CalamariFritti wrote: »

I think its a bit lazy to say there is no alternative.

The alternative has been considered, and rejected. Do you think they've not considered increasing corporation tax? Sometimes not doing something is the right thing.

Lazy? Not aware of that economic term?

CalamariFritti

If done right it might make things a little more balanced. The business environment is no coherent system either. You can't compare a small business struggling to make ends meet between rates and taxes and insurance with a big corporation. The current system is flawed in so many ways. Its leads to imbalances, social problems, its wasteful and not sustainable in the long run both environmentally and socially. I think its a bit lazy to say there is no alternative. Its like not rocking the boat because I'm still alright enough myself.

Avatar MIA

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Thats not going to work forever and ever. There is a flaw in that system IMO.

And how is making the business environment more unfavourable going to improve things?

CalamariFritti

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Have you ever read the Golden Goose story as a child?

Why do so many global companies have their European HQ in Ireland?

It's a very delicate balance, would it be great to get another few billion out of them, yes. Is it worth upsetting the appleTM Cart and taking the risk, No - IMO.

I think you're thinking too small.

Yes they are our jobs too and our goods and our pension funds and it is a delicate system. But there is no denying big corporates and financial institutions have squeezed more money to the top in the last 30 years than ever before. Thats not going to work forever and ever. There is a flaw in that system IMO.

Avatar MIA

clevtrev wrote: »

They all seem to want to be based in Dublin where there are no job shortages and they are putting increased pressure on already squeezed resources.

Seem is different to actual, and who wants all those high paying jobs anyway, right?

clevtrev wrote: »

Employers PRSI is half the european average and corporation tax is half the european average. Income tax is the third highest in Europe. A modest increase to employers prsi and corporation tax is fully warranted and I would contend that it would have absolutely no impact the levels of inward investment.

Have you seen the unemployment rates in parts of the EU? France, Spain, Italy for example? All far bigger domestic economies than a certain country on the periphery of Europe.

clevtrev

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Have you ever read the Golden Goose story as a child?

Why do so many global companies have their European HQ in Ireland?

It's a very delicate balance, would it be great to get another few billion out of them, yes. Is it worth upsetting the appleTM Cart and taking the risk, No - IMO.

I Must say nobody challenges the group think in this country. We have more multinationals in this country than we need or want. They all seem to want to be based in Dublin where there are no job shortages and they are putting increased pressure on already squeezed resources.

Corporations do not pay their fair share in Ireland. Employers PRSI is half the european average and corporation tax is half the european average. Income tax is the third highest in Europe. A modest increase to employers prsi and corporation tax is fully warranted and I would contend that it would have absolutely no impact the levels of inward investment.

Avatar MIA

CalamariFritti wrote: »

But I think the main problem is that the really rich and the big corporations and the financial sector is getting away with murder. And thats the same thing all over the world.

Have you ever read the Golden Goose story as a child?

Why do so many global companies have their European HQ in Ireland?

It's a very delicate balance, would it be great to get another few billion out of them, yes. Is it worth upsetting the appleTM Cart and taking the risk, No - IMO.

CalamariFritti

I think the problem is not so much PAYE. Yes middle and just above middle income workers are squeezed too much. And low income workers and no income non-workers probably have it relatively good here. But I think the main problem is that the really rich and the big corporations and the financial sector is getting away with murder. And thats the same thing all over the world. Social balance is seriously warped and will probably lead to trouble in the near future. The powers calling the shots are too greedy for their own good.

Avatar MIA

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I don't mind paying taxes once the public services are there

hospitals
schools
third level
social support services

my taxes support jobs. everyone's taxes support jobs.

though once I pay taxes why should I have to pay a further charge when I access the public health system, or send a child to third level?

Why, because you'd have to pay more taxes to get those "free".

We're a country of approx 4.5 million, with approx 2 million people working. Our country is not far off the size of England, with a fraction of the population (very low population density - which is strange for a country in the West of Europe). But, if you want economy of scale agitate to rejoin the UK.

Personally, I think we're doing very okay. Perfect, no. What country has it perfect?

Del2005

[Deleted User] wrote: »

High taxes haven't done Denmark much harm. Most reasonable people wouldn't mind paying high taxes if they got high quality public services in return. You can't expect top quality public services (and a fair welfare system) if you don't play a part in funding them.

Our health service is very well funded but some how doesn't work. More taxes will be wasted until there is major reform of our public and civil services, we might even be able to reduce them if they were more efficient.

In business there is a constant push for efficiency and cost reductions, publicly funded entities seem to be constantly looking for ways to spend more money.

nice_guy80

I don't mind paying taxes once the public services are there

hospitals
schools
third level
social support services

my taxes support jobs. everyone's taxes support jobs.

though once I pay taxes why should I have to pay a further charge when I access the public health system, or send a child to third level?

Avatar MIA

MrPudding wrote: »

I think there is a fairly strong argument that educating your population has an advantage, in and of itself, for the whole of society without having to recover the money back from those students.

MrP

That as may be, but it's the government that pays for it, which they do with taxes.

I pay 52% tax on my marginal income and while I'd like to pay less (who wouldn't) I'm not in favour of paying less taxes so the less well off pay some or more.

MrPudding

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Auld wans thread
>

And then, didn't most got it paid for and got grants without means testing?

Well, the guy you were responding to has been working for 20 years, so had he been in the UK the UK taxpayers would have paid all of it, and given him some free drinking money, yet he would not be paying higher rates of tax.

I think there is a fairly strong argument that educating your population has an advantage, in and of itself, for the whole of society without having to recover the money back from those students.

MrP

Avatar MIA

MrPudding wrote: »

Not if he went to uni over 20 years ago...

MrP

Auld wans thread

And then, didn't most got it paid for and got grants without means testing?

MrPudding

Avatar MIA wrote: »

And who paid for or highly subsidised that? If you got it in the UK you'd be saddled with huge student debt.

Not if he went to uni over 20 years ago...

MrP

Blazer

Dr Brown wrote: »

We should follow Sinn Feins economic policy and only tax people who are on over 100k.

If there is any short fall the government could just rob a few banks to make up for it.

Ah that’s completely wrong.
Isn’t it over 40k that Sinn Fein class as the super rich?
I’d be for lowering PAYE and raising USC and no exemptions for USC. No matter what you earn everyone pays a %

[Deleted User]

Juran wrote: »

High income taxes will result in a huge brain drain which will impact Ireland's ability to attract new investment and employers.

High taxes haven't done Denmark much harm. Most reasonable people wouldn't mind paying high taxes if they got high quality public services in return. You can't expect top quality public services (and a fair welfare system) if you don't play a part in funding them.

Del2005

clevtrev wrote: »

I
corporation tax - this is a bit sacred cow in Ireland. Sure we have attracted lots of multinationals but a few percent points wouldnt have a major impact on new arrivals. profitable companies arent paying their fair share in taxes compared to almost all european countries. An increase of 2.5 percent would net about 1.5 billion per annum

Very few countries actually get their base corporate tax. The companies that pay tax in France, Germany and the US etc don't pay anywhere near the headline rate and they aren't using us to avoid any tax.

Raise our corporate tax rates and you won't have to tax high earners as there won't be any. We used to have a highly educated young relatively cheap workforce in a low corporate tax country, now we just have a relatively low corporation tax.

Dr Brown

Pwindedd wrote: »

So if we lower the taxes for higher earners, how do we make up the deficit ? Make the lower paid pay more tax ?

We should follow Sinn Feins economic policy and only tax people who are on over 100k.

If there is any short fall the government could just rob a few banks to make up for it.

Your Face

Avatar MIA

Large corporations like consistency, for planning. Our CT system is famously consistent. And famously attractive. If the Sacred Cow is producing leave it alone.

clevtrev

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Raise it by 2.5% this year and the consistency is gone. Companies will think 2.5% this year, what about the year after. The CT practice has been highly successful, and pisses off Trump. What more do you want?

since there is no consistency applied to any other parts of the tax system not sure why it would be so important to maintain this consistency for corporation tax. As I said a sacred cow

They are considering reducing taxes (VAT) on properties to increase production.

Well theyre considering reducing VAT (which they wont do!). introduction of a stamp duty would help to dampen price increases to some extent and could be restricted to higher value properties / exclude starter homes.

What would be the point of reducing Income tax and raising a general tax?

the point of raising a general tax is to reduce income tax.....simples

Avatar MIA

clevtrev wrote: »

I can think of at least 3 options that would create a more equitable tax system

corporation tax - this is a bit sacred cow in Ireland. Sure we have attracted lots of multinationals but a few percent points wouldnt have a major impact on new arrivals. profitable companies arent paying their fair share in taxes compared to almost all european countries. An increase of 2.5 percent would net about 1.5 billion per annum

reintroduce stamp duty on property transactions - would definitely take some of the bubble out of the current situation and contribute a lot to the state coffers.

and of course water charges! theres a billion year straight off the bat

Raise it by 2.5% this year and the consistency is gone. Companies will think 2.5% this year, what about the year after. The CT practice has been highly successful, and pisses off Trump. What more do you want?

They are considering reducing taxes (VAT) on properties to increase production.

What would be the point of reducing Income tax and raising a general tax?

clevtrev

Pwindedd wrote: »

So if we lower the taxes for higher earners, how do we make up the deficit ? Make the lower paid pay more tax ?

I can think of at least 3 options that would create a more equitable tax system

corporation tax - this is a bit sacred cow in Ireland. Sure we have attracted lots of multinationals but a few percent points wouldnt have a major impact on new arrivals. profitable companies arent paying their fair share in taxes compared to almost all european countries. An increase of 2.5 percent would net about 1.5 billion per annum

reintroduce stamp duty on property transactions - would definitely take some of the bubble out of the current situation and contribute a lot to the state coffers.

and of course water charges! theres a billion year straight off the bat

Donald Trump

uch wrote: »

Your about as funny as Tuberculosis

Uch you too

:P

uch

Donald Trump wrote: »

Juran your own OP

Your about as funny as Tuberculosis

Donald Trump

Juran your own OP

Pwindedd

Elessar wrote: »

We don't.

Fair play to you. I can understand completely why people like yourself choose to leave. Unfortunately it seems the country is beholden to the low paid, social welfare "fcuk people who better themselves" begrudging shinnerbot brigade who can't/won't see that lowering taxes for higher earners is a strong incentive to better yourself. Instead we want to punish them with higher taxes while giving the lower paid more, for less contribution. Ultimately making the situation worse as the better people leave and we can't attract top talent/firms to make up for the shortfall.

/rant

So if we lower the taxes for higher earners, how do we make up the deficit ? Make the lower paid pay more tax ?