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Intercounty training

Tombo2001

There's an interview with Philly McMahon in a health food magazine at the moment where he says:

'A typical training week is two training sessions, a gym session and generally a game'.

http://www.naturallygoodhealthmagazine.com/ngh/imag/nghsummer17/html5/index.html?page=1&noflash&utm_content=buffer6146f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

I've seen this a few times from Dubs players in interviews, where they say they do 4 sessions a week. (I'm assuming he means this is what he does in a week rather than a day).

Against that, we have Sean Cavanagh yesterday saying -

"I don't understand how Dublin are so far ahead because in Tyrone we have given everything and I mean everything; in the gym, on the pitch - we have literally hurt our bodies every single night. We have gone out for nine, 10, 11 months and that still isn't good enough.

I believe we have some incredibly skilled players. I don't know how the game can go to any more time commitment for players, it's incredibly hard for players. I just don't know where the game goes, how much more professional it can become."

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/sean-cavanagh-dublin-2-372450

Surely its not possible for the Dubs to get to the level they are at on 4 training a week.

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PARlance

Quality of squad,
Quality of training,
Quality of conditioning,
Quality of support team,
Etc etc.

And most importantly, they remembered to turn up to the game. With a gameplan that worked.

Tombo2001

PARlance wrote: »

Quality of squad,
Quality of training,
Quality of conditioning,
Quality of support team,
Etc etc.

And most importantly, they remembered to turn up to the game. With a gameplan that worked.

So Tyrone are all over the shop and Dublin arent.......come on.

The question is - surely the Dubs cant get to where they are on four training sessions a week. There is no way.

Specifically - no athlete could build up the endurance needed for a full match based on this training.

Poor_old_gill

I'd imagine that he is referring to a communal training (and prob still understating it).

Players will have their own tailored gym plans, etc

statto25

That might be what they are doing training wise at the moment. They could be at 6 sessions a week during the winter and spring. Dublin are probably the most professional in terms of facilities and approach so 4 sessions at this time of year is probably the right amount.

Tombo2001

statto25 wrote: »

That might be what they are doing training wise at the moment. They could be at 6 sessions a week during the winter and spring. Dublin are probably the most professional in terms of facilities and approach so 4 sessions at this time of year is probably the right amount.

How do better facilities mean that you can train less?

What sort of facilities are you talking about?

PARlance

Tombo2001 wrote: »

So Tyrone are all over the shop and Dublin arent.......come on.

The question is - surely the Dubs cant get to where they are on four training sessions a week. There is no way.

Specifically - no athlete could build up the endurance needed for a full match based on this training.

I'm not sure what you're really asking. Do you want someone to come out and say that the Dubs must be doping or that they sneak in a 5th session a week?

Tyrone got hammered by them, Sean may (or may not) be blaming Dublins superior fitness for that but that wasn't the main reason for their defeat. Dublin outclassed them in all areas.

Just because Sean says that Tyrone worked hard on their fitness doesn't mean that they must be as fit as Dublin as a result. I'm sure Kerry train just as much as Mayo and they weren't at the same level as Mayo.

Better training regimes, better nutrition, more competition within a squad will drive players to excel. There are lots of variables at play. Two Counties can spend the exact same amount of time training and come out with different results.

Tombo2001

PARlance wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're really asking. Do you want someone to come out and say that the Dubs must be doping or that they sneak in a 5th session a week?

Tyrone got hammered by them, Sean may (or may not) be blaming Dublins superior fitness for that but that wasn't the main reason for their defeat. Dublin outclassed them in all areas.

Just because Sean says that Tyrone worked hard on their fitness doesn't mean that they must be as fit as Dublin as a result. I'm sure Kerry train just as much as Mayo and they weren't at the same level as Mayo.

Better training regimes, better nutrition, more competition within a squad will drive players to excel. There are lots of variables at play. Two Counties can spend the exact same amount of time training and come out with different results.

No I am absolutely not saying that.

My own view to be honest is that Dublin has a pool of players that is 10 times larger than Tyrones and that is why they are better; simply put they have better players.

However the question I was asking was - Philly McMahon is saying he is training 4 times a week as a Dublin squad member; now personally I have never been anywhere near an intercounty squad but to get to a fairly mediocre level in masters competition in a different sport I was training 6 days a week; and I just find it odd that he is saying he is training only 4 days a week.

I am asking, how much training does a top quality intercounty player need to do.

Hammar

Tombo2001 wrote: »

No I am absolutely not saying that.

My own view to be honest is that Dublin has a pool of players that is 10 times larger than Tyrones and that is why they are better; simply put they have better players.

However the question I was asking was - Philly McMahon is saying he is training 4 times a week as a Dublin squad member; now personally I have never been anywhere near an intercounty squad but to get to a fairly mediocre level in masters competition in a different sport I was training 6 days a week; and I just find it odd that he is saying he is training only 4 days a week.

I am asking, how much training does a top quality intercounty player need to do.

Those would be 4 times a week "collective training" as a group. All the Dublin players, as poor_old_gill stated earlier on,on this thread will be on their own individual training programmes,which they will do on on their own or in small groups.

IBrows89

A big help could be travel to and from sessions, I'm guessing most of the guys live around Dublin and may (this is just an assumption as commuting in Dublin can also be shocking!) not have to travel as much as a lot of the other teams who may have to commute hours to training. It may not sound like much but commuting that much extra can take it's toll on you mentally and physically. Wouldn't have as much as advantage as the way they outperformed Tyrone but definitely does help.

And as mentioned they probably train all the time in a full team group whereas the people communing may do it in smaller groups, which probably isn't to the same standard.

statto25

Tombo2001 wrote: »

How do better facilities mean that you can train less?

What sort of facilities are you talking about?

They have access to the best training complex in the country and the equipment located there. They also employ professionals in various fields such as S&C, nutrition, recovery to ensure that the players are getting the most from whats available to them. What I am trying to say is that Dublin are able to train 4 times a week and win All Irelands because they have an excellent setup on all fronts.

PARlance

Tombo2001 wrote: »

No I am absolutely not saying that.

My own view to be honest is that Dublin has a pool of players that is 10 times larger than Tyrones and that is why they are better; simply put they have better players.

However the question I was asking was - Philly McMahon is saying he is training 4 times a week as a Dublin squad member; now personally I have never been anywhere near an intercounty squad but to get to a fairly mediocre level in masters competition in a different sport I was training 6 days a week; and I just find it odd that he is saying he is training only 4 days a week.

I am asking, how much training does a top quality intercounty player need to do.

Ah ok, I thought it was all a big wind up to doping. Kerry are the only team at that

4 days is about right as a team. But they won't be having burgers and chips on the days off. Their days off would probably include their own tailored plan to do themselves, stretching, flexibility etc.

It's not just 4 days a week though. It's years and years of 4(ish) days a week.

Bonniedog

PARlance point about it not being about what you do in the season, but what you have been doing for years before that, which counts. Few people are going to finish a marathon in under four and a half hours if they only start distance running 6 months before the event.

Dublin's conditioning is a combination of high level training under expert guidance going back to when most of these lads were in their mid teens and part of development squads and underage. Likewise, Mayo are superbly conditioned team and currently possibly the only team that can match Dublin on that level. Kerry have notably faded in championship encounters against Dublin since 2011. And to my eye did so in the replay against Mayo.

Dublin do have a "large pool of players" at club level, but there are not 70 or 80 people at training sessions! Rules regarding panel selection are same as apply to all counties. Dublin have given pre season and even league run outs to a lot of different players but only a small % ever make it onto a championship panel. That means that while the squad has evolved, that the basic levels of preparedness remain the same, and new players are coming into that system which brings them on.

One thing is certain is that whatever about Tyrone, Mayo will not be found wanting physically, and Mayo has no advantage that doesn't apply, or potentially apply to Tyrone in terms of travel, resources etc.

I like Cavanagh but it is possible to read a bit of mealy mouthedness and insinuation into what he said.

nice_guy80

quality coaching over quantity always wins out

biggest problem in the gaa can be over training

at this stage of season any sessions are short and snappy focus on speed and accuracy and gym work is basically mobility work and some low rep close to max weight training

Realt Dearg Sec

Tombo2001 wrote: »

we have given everything and I mean everything; in the gym, on the pitch - we have literally hurt our bodies every single night.

There's your problem lad.

Greybottle

Could be Tyrone are overtraining? I'd a great physio who reckoned a rest day is often better than a training day.

Nutrition as has been mentioned is also very important. I'd expect each Dublin player has their own personal diet plan. As well as their own personal training plan.

Also McMahon could be training with Ballymun the odd night and I think he has his own gym.

Short and sharp training is often better than hours beating yourself to exhaustion around a field.

PARlance

The OP missed Cavanagh's main gripe in the article imo. That being the cushy jobs.

BrianBoru00

IBrows89 wrote: »

A big help could be travel to and from sessions, I'm guessing most of the guys live around Dublin and may (this is just an assumption as commuting in Dublin can also be shocking!) not have to travel as much as a lot of the other teams who may have to commute hours to training. It may not sound like much but commuting that much extra can take it's toll on you mentally and physically. Wouldn't have as much as advantage as the way they outperformed Tyrone but definitely does help.

And as mentioned they probably train all the time in a full team group whereas the people communing may do it in smaller groups, which probably isn't to the same standard.

This.

Look I could re hash the old money arguments but that's a separate issue.

Tyrone, Kerry, Mayo and Dublin (as well as prob Galway, Kildare, Cork and Kilkenny & Tipp hurlers) are well financed but theres the law of diminishing returns. i.e. All the top counties and most of the others to be fair have pitches to train on and well equipped gyms.

The biggest benefit Dublin have on other teams is the proximity of all their players to training. It means they can have training at 7pm in the evening and players can be home relaxing at 9pm. the majority of other counties will have anything from 30-60% of their players based in Dublin for college or work and these players will not get home until after midnight in some cases and this impacts recovery hugely.

Take a player for Laois who is working in Dublin. leaves work at 530 and gets bus to Heuston/Phoenix park where he meets three other lads and they then drive down to Portlaoise grabbing a sandwich or pasta salad first. They arrive in Portlaoise at 730 for training at 8pm which is finished 915 and then they shower/change and eat and its 1015 before they're on the road back to Dublin for 1115-1145 depending on whether they have lift directly to apartment or they need extra bus etc.

For a Donegal or Sligo or Limerick player that scenario is worse. And this is not something that can really be solved by money - not on the GAA's behalf anyhow

PARlance

It was mentioned that Kerry's full squad where based in Kerry this year. I'm not sure if that's true or not but they definitely don't have 30-60% away.

Mayo have also less players away than before. There are 3 in Dublin full time afaik, another 3 or 4 in college but at least they're around for the summer.

Not sure about the rest but top counties are recognising (and acting) the advantage of having a panel close to home.

dxhound2005

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

This.

The biggest benefit Dublin have on other teams is the proximity of all their players to training. It means they can have training at 7pm in the evening and players can be home relaxing at 9pm. the majority of other counties will have anything from 30-60% of their players based in Dublin for college or work and these players will not get home until after midnight in some cases and this impacts recovery hugely.

Louth players don't have to travel very far in comparison to places like Kerry or Donegal. There is a Centre of Excellence no more than 20 miles from anywhere in the county. That hasn't helped much.

In the modern economy not everyone is working 9 to 5.30. What if you are a barman or waiter working in the evening economy, or a supermaket employee on the late shifts?

If the whole Dublin setup, personnel and facilities decamped to Louth or Fermanagh, how long before one of them would win an All Ireland?

Martina1991

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

This.
The biggest benefit Dublin have on other teams is the proximity of all their players to training. It means they can have training at 7pm in the evening and players can be home relaxing at 9pm. the majority of other counties will have anything from 30-60% of their players based in Dublin for college or work and these players will not get home until after midnight in some cases and this impacts recovery hugely.

I would agree with this. 9 of the Mayo lads are in Dublin, 2 others are guards outside the county. I don't know about the rest of them, but it is an advantage being based near all training facilities.

Martina1991

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Louth players don't have to travel very far in comparison to places like Kerry or Donegal. There is a Centre of Excellence no more than 20 miles from anywhere in the county. That hasn't helped much

All counties have centers of excellence but it doesn't guarantee quality footballers/ hurlers. The work has to be done at underage level first.

BrianBoru00

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Louth players don't have to travel very far in comparison to places like Kerry or Donegal. There is a Centre of Excellence no more than 20 miles from anywhere in the county. That hasn't helped much.

In the modern economy not everyone is working 9 to 5.30. What if you are a barman or waiter working in the evening economy, or a supermaket employee on the late shifts?

If the whole Dublin setup, personnel and facilities decamped to Louth or Fermanagh, how long before one of them would win an All Ireland?

If the whole Dublin panel became the Louth panel? Well probably they would win the All Ireland. but they beat Kerry by three points in 2015 and 1 in 2011 and Mayo by one point twice - I think the difference in having to travel would probably have meant them losing at least one of those games.
The margins at that level have been very close.
Whether they're bar men or waiters is irrelevant to this thread really apart to say that the odd student part time excepted I would say the amount of intercounty players in those jobs is negligible. I'd wager that out of 31 football teams on the island - 900-1000 players - less than 5 work anti social hours full time.

It's not the reason Dublin are so far ahead of Louth.

PARlance

Martina1991 wrote: »

I would agree with this. 9 of the Mayo lads are in Dublin, 2 others are guards outside the county. I don't know about the rest of them, but it is an advantage being based near all training facilities.

Most of those 9 have the summer off don't they? Being either students or teachers. It's not ideal, but at least having them around for the summer is better than nothing.

Boyler and Clarke are the Guards and they're Galway and Sligo respectively afaik. I think they're too close to even mention it as an issue.

I think it's just Seamie, Tom and Robbie H that have serious travel (FT jobs in Dublin) over the summer. The squad occasionally train in Longford to help them out. It's an unreal commitment and it is a big disadvantage when talking about fine margins required to win an AI.

Was Tom based in Scotland for a while? I seem to recall one of the panel was flying in/out regularly a few years ago.

dxhound2005

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

If the whole Dublin panel became the Louth panel? Well probably they would win the All Ireland. but they beat Kerry by three points in 2015 and 1 in 2011 and Mayo by one point twice - I think the difference in having to travel would probably have meant them losing at least one of those games.
The margins at that level have been very close.
Whether they're bar men or waiters is irrelevant to this thread really apart to say that the odd student part time excepted I would say the amount of intercounty players in those jobs is negligible. I'd wager that out of 31 football teams on the island - 900-1000 players - less than 5 work anti social hours full time.

It's not the reason Dublin are so far ahead of Louth.

Sorry for not being clear. I meant the management, coaching, medical and nutritional personnel and facilities from Dublin, not the players. Could that turn Sligo or Clare into All Ireland champions?

BrianBoru00

No.

Louth is an interesting one in that it has the population. (A general figure of 100,000+ of population needed to compete). Soccer appears to be dominant up there though with tow LOI teams.

Louth need to put in place structures to develop their players and retain as many as possible.

You mention "..management, coaching, medical and nutritional personnel.."
If your referring to the Louth county team versus the Dublin county team then no it won't make any discernible difference.

I'm of the firm belief that Dublin should not be getting any financial assistance from the GAA given they're sponsorship and finiancial support BUT to be fair to Dublin - they have put a lot of work into getting good solid coaching and management structures in place - remember they won 1 All Ireland between 1984 and 2010. They are reaping rewards now.
I think in an ideal world each county would have the exact same money available for each team / code but its what is done with this money that will and does make the difference

franglan

Spare a thought for the forgotten club players who are travelling home during the week from far flung places to train as a team too. I know my own club in Roscommon has 9 lads in Dub. Leave Dub at 5.30 to be training back home at 8 back up and in bed by 1am with work the next morning.

StupidLikeAFox

Theres no one thing that makes dublin the most successful team, it's a combination many things.

To speak to the original question, it's not clear what philly mcmahon was on about. He may have been leaving out video/tactics sessions or personal gym sessions.

Maybe he wasn't though - heard a rumour that the dubs took a break after the league final and didn't get together as a group for 5 weeks. Not sure how true that is, bit maybe jim gavin has found that there is no benefit in over training.

Spending time and training constantly with the same group of players all the time, putting your life on hold, off the beer for months, I can imagine it leads to a goldfish bowl situation. Maybe the dubs have created the right culture here of shorter contact time but higher standards. It's all speculation but they are doing something right

Bonniedog

Gavin treats the players like adults. They go for a pint after a game and get to have their speak.

A previous regime dropped players for going for a drink. Including Connolly who was in Casement Park watching hurlers with us about 8 years ago and was touted on by someone!

True story. Same happened to Mark Vaughan.

I am old enough to remember seeing Keaveney and Hanahoe and the boys in Meaghers after games. Supping pints. Different times now, but no fit 20 something is either going to lose conditioning after a few pints or if ambitious go on the rip after a match.