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Child Item

My employer wants me to disclose the nature of illness

Shinsen

Hi all,

I'd need an advice please.
I've been off from work for an illness for some weeks. My company sent me to an occupational doctor for a visit. With the doctor I had a confidential conversation, he said that he was going to talk with my company, that he was going to say that I'm unfit to work without disclosing the nature of my illness. He said exactly the words that he was going to report to the company, nothing more, nothing less. He was was detailed on that matter.
Later, I received a call from my employer. They said that they want to know the nature of the illness and they said that the occupational doctor told them that if they wanted to know the nature of the illness, HR can ask me directly. I doubt very much that this was said from the doctor, he didn't mention anything about it.
Another concern is in relation to regular contacts in which I have to engage with HR. They want me to go to my GP every week for a weekly certificate and they want me to call HR every week as well. All this, despite it's been said that for the moment the lenght of my sickness leave is undefinite.
I wonder if the legislation requires that, in that case ok I'll do it. But if not, to be honest, repetitive visits to a GP for a certificate (that I have to pay each time by the way), and calls with HR, will cause me just more distress. I'm not sure what is the reason behind it, apart from controlling me, I think that they want to exhaust me so that I'll finally get back to work. Instead, I think this will cause me just more pressure and may slow the process of recovery as well. What I really need now, beside the medical examinations that i have to follow, is resting and having a break from work.
If you could give me any sort of advise, I'd appreciate it very much.
Thank you.

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Frowzy

billybonkers wrote: »

Massive breach of data protection here, with GDPR on the horizon I can't believe a company would be so stupid to share this information. I suggest you contact a solicitor who is specialised in Employment Law and explain your situation to them. They will be best qualified to advise you on the next steps.

Unacceptable is the bottom line here. I know how I would feel if I had an illness that I wanted to remain confidential revealed to anybody.

You have rights here and a solicitor is the only person qualified to give you advice. Please speak with one today.

DPC - https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Home/4.htm

Slow down, solicitors cost money and they may not be needed just yet.

You don’t know the full story here. If the OPs Income Protection Insurance was organised through the company chances are that there may have been a clause in the paperwork signed that states that you were ok with the sharing of information. I would take this issue as secondary and ensure first that the job itself is not at stake and that the OP has some stress free time to recuperate.

Shinsen

rock22 wrote: »

Someone in the company believe that if they knew the nature of the illness they would know when you are likely to return. This is clearly nonsense as they are not competent to make that judgement.
Clearly you are upset that the details of doctors appointments have been shared with the company but that does not necessarily mean that the nature of the illness has been shared.

Despite the medical certificates from my GP, my employer wanted to verify that I am unfit to work. They arranged an appointment with an occupational therapist. I went. I showed the occupational therapist all my medical reports and he examined me. He considered me unfit to work. He's a doctor and he knows how much time more or less I should need to recover. He shared this information with my employer, nothing else. I didn't want to disclose the nature of my illness and the doctor said that I'm entitled not to disclose it.
My employer didn't need to know anything else. However they insisted in knowing more.
In relation to the point "that does not necessarily mean that the nature of the illness has been shared", the specialization of the doctors tells everything. Furthermore, I've seen in the company that when somebody is off sick, for some reason, everybody knows the reason. Even myself who I am not into gossiping and I'm generally the last person in knowing things, I ended up knowing as well. I'm talking about people who had very serious illnesses as well.
I don't know what to say. In my company we're demanded to do data protection trainings every year, we must do a test as well and we must pass it. And then these things happen...
Unfortunately I don't have a Trade Union agent I could talk to. I sent an email to Data protection to see if I can make a complaint. I called the Free legal advice service as well, they'll call me soon.
I don't think I can do much else now. I called the insurance company and the broker, I realized this has affected me a lot, I got very upset on the telephone. They both apologized and told me that they'll talk with their manager or team leader and/or they'll open a complaint case. Whatever, the breach has taken place, I think this won't bring to anything. What has been done, cannot be undone.
I think I need my head to put a rest now, this has caused me a lot of turmoil. Definitely, the last thing I hoped it happened.
Thank you all for your advice and your words.

rock22

Shinsen, it is clear that trust between you and your employer has broken down. Is there any person who could act on your behalf in this matter. I am thinking of a union representative or , if necessary, a solicitor.
Your employer has no right to knowledge of your illness. But they do have a reasonable expectation of knowing the probable length of your absence. Someone in the company believe that if they knew the nature of the illness they would know when you are likely to return. This is clearly nonsense as they are not competent to make that judgement.
Clearly you are upset that the details of doctors appointments have been shared with the company but that does not necessarily mean that the nature of the illness has been shared.
i would strongly advise that you try and find a representative who can deal with this for you while you are unwell.

billybonkers

Massive breach of data protection here, with GDPR on the horizon I can't believe a company would be so stupid to share this information. I suggest you contact a solicitor who is specialised in Employment Law and explain your situation to them. They will be best qualified to advise you on the next steps.

Unacceptable is the bottom line here. I know how I would feel if I had an illness that I wanted to remain confidential revealed to anybody.

You have rights here and a solicitor is the only person qualified to give you advice. Please speak with one today.

DPC - https://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Home/4.htm

Shinsen

Turtwig wrote: »

You have certificates from the relevant professionals stating you are unfit to work. That should have been enough to satisfy your employer.

Where this get's messy is you may have consented in either an exchange with your employer, your insurer or your work contract for the data exchange from insurance company to a party such as the risk administration. Or your employer may have breached your consent.

You could seek legal advice and perhaps consult the data protection commissioner if you feel aggrieved? It also depends on exactly what data was forwarded to your employer. The information about appointments may be generic attended hospital at a certain time on a certain date for X amount of euros stuff.

I didn't consent.
Where is the data protection commissioner?
The information of the medical appointments carries the name of the doctors and the specialization as well.

Frowzy

the_syco wrote: »

If the sickness leave is indefinite, why couldn't the employer let the OP go, if "an early return to work is unlikely"?

The doctor has said that the sickness period is indefinite, not endless. The doctor expects that the OP will return to work at some stage. Indefinite could mean six weeks or six years. They could only dismiss them now if the doctor said that the OP is unlikely to ever regain his/her health to the point that they would be able to resume work and their current position.

If the illness persists and in say two years the OP has still not returned to work then the employer would have a case to say that they cannot hold the position open as the uncertainty is having an effect on the continuity of their work. If we are only talking about a few months then it’s much to early for that.

Obviously I’m speaking in general terms. I don’t know the nature of the illness or the job that the OP does. There would be cases where the employer could argue earlier, for example if the person is a surgeon but has had an arm amputated then they would never be able to return to that job so it’s realistic for the employer to terminate the contract of employment as the person is no longer fit to carry out the duties they were employed for. However, if the OP is an astronaut and has developed a fear of enclosed spaces then obviously they can’t work now, but realistically with therapy and time they may overcome this and be able to return to work but the period of recovery is indefinite as every person recovers at a different rate.

Then of course there’s other things to consider such as has work contributed to or aggravated the condition? So has the person developed an illness because of the work environment, for example I might develop stress or depression because of a very stressful or high paced work environment. Or I may work as a cleaner who has a skin irritation aggravated by certain cleaning products, but I wasn’t aware that I would have this reaction before I took ok up employment. Then I bring the issue to the attention of the employer who is unwilling to consider using alternative products which do not irritate my skin. In each of these cases the employer cannot terminate my employment because the illness is a result of the work environment and they have a duty of care to me. However I would be looking at taking them to court for damages and a redundancy package.

The OP would need to get advice specific to their situation.

s7ryf3925pivug

Six months leave at full pay is very generous. An indefinite period of leave makes arranging cover difficult - a six month contract would be wasteful if you're back in three weeks for example. I know someone who was required to provide them by contract. In that case they were able to switch to a leave of absence, which was for a defined period with the option to extend if necessary. They were not paid for this but were able to resume when the period ended. This was far less stressful for them than the week by week approach.

I know someone else who chose to quit their job because of stress related illness, rather than take extended sick leave. They had done so with the notion of taking time off to recover, but financial responsibilities required them to seek another job quickly. Apparently they are fine now in their new role.

You could ask about any possibility of a defined leave of absence at reduced or no pay if your situation would allow you to manage that. You could discuss working from home or with reduced hours. You could look into changing jobs. If any of these might be options, they seem like they would be less stressful than your current situation.

I think engaging with your employer with the mindset of seeing things from their point of view might help resolve the situation. The prospect of returning to work without resolving things would probably be very stressful for you right now.

the_syco

Shinsen wrote: »

All this, despite it's been said that for the moment the lenght of my sickness leave is undefinite.

I assume you meant "indefinite"?

Frowzy wrote: »

You say you have only been out a period of months, it is illegal for a company to fire you while you are out on sick leave. You would have to be out years for them to take that action. The only way they could get rid of you now is if your doctor deemed you unfit to ever return to your position at that company, currently he’s certifying you as unfit to work at present, but not forever so you have lots of time before you have to deal with that.

If the sickness leave is indefinite, why couldn't the employer let the OP go, if "an early return to work is unlikely"?

Frowzy

Firstly I am so sorry that you are going through this. Your first concern should be your own health, so at all times be mindful of how you’re feeling and how much stress/pressure dealing with you employer is becoming.

Do you have a Union at work? Is there no shop steward or employee representative that can help you?

Firstly I want to put your mind at rest about losing your job, you are nowhere near that happening. You say you have only been out a period of months, it is illegal for a company to fire you while you are out on sick leave. You would have to be out years for them to take that action. The only way they could get rid of you now is if your doctor deemed you unfit to ever return to your position at that company, currently he’s certifying you as unfit to work at present, but not forever so you have lots of time before you have to deal with that.

Email your HR department and ask them to send you a copy of their published sick policy (use the word published as you want to be covered by the same policy as the rest of the staff not one they’ve thrown together because they now know the nature of your illness). By law every company must have one and they must supply it to you. So get them to email it to you, that way you have a date stamp, don’t delete any emails from them ever! When you get this document read it, read it and read it again. Every step or action you take from this point on must fall within the policy or you give them reason to take disciplinary action against you.

I believe that they are being unreasonable by asking you to attend a doctor every week if your doctor does not feel it necessary. A doctor can certify you from month to month if he sees fit to do so. The only cert you need on a weekly basis is your social welfare cert. this can be issued by the doctors receptionist once he has certified you unfit for work. There is, or shouldn’t be a cost for issuing a social welfare cert as it clearly states on the cert that the doctor is paid by the social welfare for issuing it.

Speak to your GP about his prognosis going forward. If it’s his opinion that it could be another six months to a year, or even longer, before you would be fit to return to work then you would have a case to apply to the social welfare to accept monthly certificates instead of weekly certificates. Be warned that the social welfare may ask you to attend their doctor. If you succeed in getting the social welfare to accept monthly certificates then your company would be extremely unreasonable to insist on weekly certificates going forward and they would be on shaky ground overruling the advice of two doctors.

Unfortunately now that the nature of your illness has been disclosed to your employer your can’t un-disclose it, so you will love have to live with it for now. Don’t stress over it at the moment, when you are well and back at work you can request to see your HR file, anyone can request this at any time, and if you feel that they are holding information on the file that is not relevant to your position going forward then you can ask them to remove it. So for example they can keep the information that says you have been out of work due to illness, but once they have a medical certificate to say you are well and able to perform your duties unless the illness will be ongoing there would be no need for them to hold the medical information going forward. That’s for down the road, first you need to get yourself well again!

If I were you I would make myself unavailable for phone calls and request that they email you going forward. You are unfit for work, you are recuperating and want to avoid stress. Try to get them to email or post any further requests to you, when they are having to put everything in writing then you will find that they will be much more reasonable as they cannot deny what you have in writing.

I was a Shop steward for a number of years, but I am not a full time union representative. I would always advise anybody that even if there is not a union at work that doesn’t stop you from joining a union. Yes the employer may not negotiate with the union directly, but having someone that you can call for advice in a situation like this is invaluable, especially for the small monthly cost.

Best of Luck going forward. I found myself in a similar situation to yourself a few years ago and even though it may seem like the end of the world at the moment I promise that you will get through this and life will go on with or without this job. Your health is your wealth, look after that first.

Turtwig

Shinsen wrote: »

It has happened that after all the effort of keeping the nature of my illness as confidential, this confidentiality has been broken.
Because I have been off sick for a few months now, I have to incur into other medical appointments arranged by the insurance company that will cover part of my salary. The exchange of information has been only between them and I.
Until this week, a risk admnistration company which I don't know yet what is their involvement, they have forwarded the information with the medical appointments to my employer who have forwarded to me.
I am really very annoyed and disappointed now.
Do I have any right to make a complaint against this company?

You have certificates from the relevant professionals stating you are unfit to work. That should have been enough to satisfy your employer.

Where this get's messy is you may have consented in either an exchange with your employer, your insurer or your work contract for the data exchange from insurance company to a party such as the risk administration. Or your employer may have breached your consent.

You could seek legal advice and perhaps consult the data protection commissioner if you feel aggrieved? It also depends on exactly what data was forwarded to your employer. The information about appointments may be generic attended hospital at a certain time on a certain date for X amount of euros stuff.

Shinsen

mr_cochise wrote: »

Hi Shinsen,
it is up to you if you want to complain and to continue to withhold information.
However, this is likely to result in you eventually having all payments from your employer or the insurance company cut off.

It is my advice that you look at this from it being a process as opposed to some people being nosey. The likely reality is that they don't really care what the nature of your illness is, but to approve payments to you, they need to verify that you are ill. Once they do this, they just get on with the rest of their daily tasks.
Don't take this personally. It is simply a process to ensure that the sick pay scheme is not abused.

I appreciate what you say. However, I was previously visited by an Occupational therapist who confirmed to my employer that I am unfit to work. He told me as well that I am entitled not to disclose the nature of my illness.

Gerry T

mr_cochise wrote:

It is my advice that you look at this from it being a process as opposed to some people being nosey. The likely reality is that they don't really care what the nature of your illness is, but to approve payments to you, they need to verify that you are ill. Once they do this, they just get on with the rest of their daily tasks. Don't take this personally. It is simply a process to ensure that the sick pay scheme is not abused.

They got the verification from the doctor and as you say they don't care what the illness is.
So in your opinion if the OP tells the employer their suffering from neck pain for example that the employer will then be satisfied. That's just silly, the employer is not qualified to judge.
If the OP has depression, which carries a stigma then I wouldn't advise they disclose. The employer is being a bully.

All My Stars Aligned

Shinsen wrote: »

It has happened that after all the effort of keeping the nature of my illness as confidential, this confidentiality has been broken.
Because I have been off sick for a few months now, I have to incur into other medical appointments arranged by the insurance company that will cover part of my salary. The exchange of information has been only between them and I.
Until this week, a risk admnistration company which I don't know yet what is their involvement, they have forwarded the information with the medical appointments to my employer who have forwarded to me.
I am really very annoyed and disappointed now.
Do I have any right to make a complaint against this company?

Probably not what you would like to hear but I would strongly advise taking some legal advise for a firm that specialise in employment law. Advise gained from Boards, however well intentioned, may not be appropriate to you circumstance.

I hope your heath is improving.

mr_cochise

Hi Shinsen,
it is up to you if you want to complain and to continue to withhold information.
However, this is likely to result in you eventually having all payments from your employer or the insurance company cut off.

It is my advice that you look at this from it being a process as opposed to some people being nosey. The likely reality is that they don't really care what the nature of your illness is, but to approve payments to you, they need to verify that you are ill. Once they do this, they just get on with the rest of their daily tasks.
Don't take this personally. It is simply a process to ensure that the sick pay scheme is not abused.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

I was out of work for one day as I woke up with a pounding migraine and I was vomiting. You don't need a sick cert in that company unless you are out on a Monday, Friday or three days in a row.

I was absent on a Wednesday.

My supervisor asked me exactly what was wrong with me when I returned.
I told her I don't need a sick cert and nowhere in the employee handbook does it say I have to disclose the nature of my illness. She insisted I told her. On principle, I vehemently refused.

She called in the manager who backed her up and told me not to disobey the supervisor

No amount of pointing to the handbook made him or her back down.

I just eventually said "Do you want to know .. do you really? I had the fukcing sh1ts". They told me there'd be disciplinary actions for my outburst but I just fobbed it off as I knew I had accepted another job at that stage and I was just in the middle of penning my resignation letter when she called me in.

Don't accept any kind of bullying from those managers.

Shinsen

It has happened that after all the effort of keeping the nature of my illness as confidential, this confidentiality has been broken.
Because I have been off sick for a few months now, I have to incur into other medical appointments arranged by the insurance company that will cover part of my salary. The exchange of information has been only between them and I.
Until this week, a risk admnistration company which I don't know yet what is their involvement, they have forwarded the information with the medical appointments to my employer who have forwarded to me.
I am really very annoyed and disappointed now.
Do I have any right to make a complaint against this company?

NotInventedHere

Couchpotato82 wrote: »

You have no obligation to tell your employers anything as long as the Cerys keep coming in.
However, if you get overly obtuse in your dealings with them it will, unfortunately, come against you in the future as regards promotion/career progression. You are being paid for not working. You are costing them money and like all profit based organisations they'll view you as a liability and they won't forget it when you get back to work. For an easy life I'd be honest with the company. Speak to the most trusted manager you have access to. Outline briefly your issues and how important it is to you for your chat to be confidential.

Your advice is is extremely naive. Lets say you had a sexually transmitted disease, would you like your employer to know?

Shinsen

Couchpotato82 wrote: »

You have no obligation to tell your employers anything as long as the Cerys keep coming in.
However, if you get overly obtuse in your dealings with them it will, unfortunately, come against you in the future as regards promotion/career progression. You are being paid for not working. You are costing them money and like all profit based organisations they'll view you as a liability and they won't forget it when you get back to work. For an easy life I'd be honest with the company. Speak to the most trusted manager you have access to. Outline briefly your issues and how important it is to you for your chat to be confidential.

I understand and I appreciate that you wrote this here, however I am more focussed on my health now. Whatever happens later, will happen. I cannot think too much ahead at the moment. Now I just need to know if there is some support and if I can be entitled of privacy. And peace, because out of everything, this is what I mostly need at the present moment.

Couchpotato82

You have no obligation to tell your employers anything as long as the Cerys keep coming in.
However, if you get overly obtuse in your dealings with them it will, unfortunately, come against you in the future as regards promotion/career progression. You are being paid for not working. You are costing them money and like all profit based organisations they'll view you as a liability and they won't forget it when you get back to work. For an easy life I'd be honest with the company. Speak to the most trusted manager you have access to. Outline briefly your issues and how important it is to you for your chat to be confidential.

jimmycrackcorm

Tenigate wrote:

Your gp can sign you off for 3 weeks, no problem. Just ask him/her to get the secretary to do up a weekly cert. You may have to pay an admin fee.

This solves the problem of weekly certs. But by no means do you have to disclose the nature of the illness to your employer. Either the doctor says you are fit for work or not.

Shinsen

davo10 wrote: »

If by specifics you mean informing the employer of the nature of your illness, an employee contract cannot over ride your statutory rights. Patient confidentiality is sacrosanct, an employee is not required to give details about illness, a Doctor cannot be compelled to divulge it to an employer against the patient's wishes.

I was hoping to hear that!

davo10

Mr_cochise (youve deleted post) if by specifics you mean informing the employer of the nature of your illness, an employee contract cannot over ride your statutory rights. Patient confidentiality is sacrosanct, an employee is not required to give details about illness, a Doctor cannot be compelled to divulge it to an employer against the patient's wishes.

Shinsen

davo10 wrote: »

Sorry, to clarify, the company GP is not a second opinion. The second opinion is given by a GP not employed by the company, it is an iinfependent GP with no connection with your employer and is selected with your agreement.

Thank you, I understand now what you mean.
Ok, then I must have put it in better words. I wrote 'company's gp' just to abbreviate or better... to distinguish him from my GP, but I didn't mean to say that he's a doctor who works for my company.
He's a doctor who works for an external company, they do independent examinations. I hope that clarifies. My company sent me there, however they are externals, my company paid for my visit to them.

davo10

moquinetta wrote: »

Sorry, English is not my first language, I might have not explained myself in a proper way.
So far in my messages I have distinguished between Occupational doctor and GP.
My company sent me to the Occupational doctor for having a second opinion. He also said that I am unfit.

Sorry, to clarify, the company GP is not a second opinion. The second opinion is given by a GP not employed by the company, it is an iinfependent GP with no connection with your employer and is selected with your agreement.

davo10

mr_cochise wrote: »

Your employer is not legally required to pay you while you are off sick. What harm is there in telling them the nature of your illness? They need to account for the money paid out to ensure they are not being scammed. Work with them, be open with them and you will find that they will actually be supportive to your situation.
All you have to do is recognise that they have procedures to follow in these circumstances and are not out to get you.

1. Data protection.
2. The employer is not entitled to information about nature of illness under patient confidentiality legislation.

Shinsen

mr_cochise wrote: »

Your employer is not legally required to pay you while you are off sick. What harm is there in telling them the nature of your illness? They need to account for the money paid out to ensure they are not being scammed. Work with them, be open with them and you will find that they will actually be supportive to your situation.
All you have to do is recognise that they have procedures to follow in these circumstances and are not out to get you.

Yes they are, in the contract it says that employees are entitled to up to six months paid sick leave.
I cannot comment on disclosing the nature of illness, that's the reason why I've opened the forum for an advice. However, it's a serious and delicate condition and not even doctors know exactly what it is, for this reason I need time for medical tests and examinations.

Shinsen

davo10 wrote: »

The second opinion is not your GP, it would be an independent GP.

Sorry, English is not my first language, I might have not explained myself in a proper way.
So far in my messages I have distinguished between Occupational doctor and GP.
My company sent me to the Occupational doctor for having a second opinion. He also said that I am unfit.

mr_cochise

Your employer is not legally required to pay you while you are off sick. What harm is there in telling them the nature of your illness? They need to account for the money paid out to ensure they are not being scammed. Work with them, be open with them and you will find that they will actually be supportive to your situation.
All you have to do is recognise that they have procedures to follow in these circumstances and are not out to get you.

davo10

moquinetta wrote: »

Thank you.
What about this paragraph? "In terms of medical evidence you may be required to attend your employer's medical expert. If there is a conflict of medical evidence between you and your employer as to the possible return date, your employer will be expected to get a second opinion before taking the decision to dismiss you."
I have attended the employer's medical expert, they got the second opinion. Following the second opinion, I am unfit.

The second opinion is not your GP, it would be an independent GP.

It would be a legal minefield for an employer to dismiss you so it would have to be a long term absence for them to travel that road. But, don't discount it, the bigger the company the less they will care. But if you are unable to work, and if both the company Doctor and your GP concur, then the only issue is the length of absence.

If your contract doesn't define a certification period it is open to interpretation. Weekly or fortnightly is the norm so if they can show that other employees had similar requirements, then they will be on solid ground.

Shinsen

davo10 wrote: »

The "why" first, though of course you have rights in relation to sick leave, the burden placed on your employer must also be recognised.

How long? That is not defined, it would be up to an employer to show the impact of your absence to an unfair dismissals hearing.

Read "capability"

Thank you.
What about this paragraph? "In terms of medical evidence you may be required to attend your employer's medical expert. If there is a conflict of medical evidence between you and your employer as to the possible return date, your employer will be expected to get a second opinion before taking the decision to dismiss you."
I have attended the employer's medical expert, they got the second opinion. Following the second opinion, I am unfit.