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Remapping implications

amf78

Hi,

I'm considering getting my car remapped but before doing that I would like to know if there are any adverse implications or legal issues involved.
I'm not talking about voiding the warranty (no longer relevant anyway), increasing fuel consumption or even shortening the engine lifetime.
I'm wondering about potential NCT issues, insurance, road tax and the ability to have it serviced.
Any advice is much appreciated.

Cheers!

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grogi

CiniO wrote: »

But afaik there's nothing illegal in non disclosing such facts to insurance company.

Actually there is. In Common Law systems the insurance contracts are based on Uberrimae Fidei principle.

Even if not asked, everything that might influence the insurer to offer the cover and the price of the premium needs to be disclosed.

Your legal requirement is to have insurance policy for the car you're driving.
By purchasing one you are fulfilling your legal requirement.

And that is the biggest issue in Ireland.

There is a legal requirement for TPL insurance, but very little regulation of what this insurance covers, how it is offered, the fault determination etc.

It relies solely on the 'invisible market hand'. And MIBI ruling, which to me sounds very ambiguous.

There is no certainty for the drivers and no certainty for the insurers as well. That's why the latter don't want to enter any contract under which they might be made to pay even though the contract itself did not cover it.

amf78

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What if you cause serious injury or death to an innocent 3rd party though? If your power mod. was discovered your own damages would not be covered and you'd then find it impossible to obtain cover again due to your policy being voided because of your blatant non disclosure.

The issue shouldn't be disclosure or non-disclosure, the issue should be whether the said modification, disclosed or not, was the sole (or even contributing) factor in the accident. It wouldn't be hard for an expert in the field to convince the jury that the said modification is irrelevant, when, for instance, you have model variants out there with the same - or possibly more - horsepower and torque. If power increase is the added risk, then 300 or 400 bhp cars shouldn't be allowed anywhere outside racing tracks, whether or not it's a factory config.
That's what would happen in a normal world. In a world where we're one step away from making it illegal to cross the street without proper supervision if you're under 21, it's a whole different story.
If there's a law against driving without insurance, then there's should be a law preventing insurance companies from refusing to cover road worthy cars. It's that simple.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

But afaik there's nothing illegal in non disclosing such facts to insurance company.

Your legal requirement is to have insurance policy for the car you're driving.
By purchasing one you are fulfilling your legal requirement.

If you don't disclose facts as mods, etc to your insurer might be a breach of the insurance contract and might cause your insurer to re refuse to pay for damage to your own car, as well as they might look into recouping from you the amount they paid to third party.

But there's nothing illegal in not disclosing all the facts to insurer.

1/. Fraud.

2/. Obtaining insurance by deception.

Apart from that it's fine

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I didn't.

My point is by not disclosing a material mod. like a remap you are quite deliberately jeopardizing your cover, and future insurability.

I'm all for a bit of fun, provided it's legal.

But afaik there's nothing illegal in non disclosing such facts to insurance company.

Your legal requirement is to have insurance policy for the car you're driving.
By purchasing one you are fulfilling your legal requirement.

If you don't disclose facts as mods, etc to your insurer might be a breach of the insurance contract and might cause your insurer to re refuse to pay for damage to your own car, as well as they might look into recouping from you the amount they paid to third party.

But there's nothing illegal in not disclosing all the facts to insurer.

PrzemoF

selectamatic wrote: »

Think you need to swap to a smaller kompressor (supercharger) pulley to make it worthwhile as this will increase boost slightly a freer flowing exhaust would help too. I think a remap on its own would only see very marginal gains.

Thanks for the answer! I have the older version, so remap should give a lot (163 HP --> ~180 HP) as newer SLKs have exactly the same mechanical setup.

bmstuff

Kevin Irving wrote: »

... actually shows locations of 48 different control modules. New cars would have many more.

No 48 here is the maximum number of modules this car can have when fully loaded included side view cameras, gps, automatic transmissions and so on.

New cars these days have half that number of modules. Some up to 30 but then they have self parking, TV, 5 cameras, heated and ventillated seats etc

48 is called over engineered. As progress goes many functions are regrouped from 4-5 modules to only one these days. Simplicity and costs.
A brand new BMW 3 or 4 series would have about 12-15 modules only or more if more options.

Henry Ford III

rex-x wrote: »

The insurance companies have made it so that its impossible to do it legally.... I spent many years getting shafted by Quinn Direct with my 50% increased premiums and engineers reports for being honest until Liberty took over and instead of a renewal sent me a PFO letter saying they didn't want my 10 years no claims and 0 points as I was too high risk...

At that point I gave up! There is not one single company in Ireland that will allow power related modifications and I wont be told what I can or cant do to my car :mad:

If I crash through someones fence and knock down their prize winning endangered zebra while sailing through their priceless art gallery I look forward to being sued by the insurance company who try to recoup their costs because I didn't tell them about my remap, bring it on

What if you cause serious injury or death to an innocent 3rd party though? If your power mod. was discovered your own damages would not be covered and you'd then find it impossible to obtain cover again due to your policy being voided because of your blatant non disclosure.

http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/20575...1#post98104401

I note from some of your other posts that Liberty offered to re-examine your case following their decision not to renew your policy but after raising the issue with them you declined to provide details. Why?

Do you realise that their decision not to offer renewal terms should have been disclosed to your subsequent/current insurer? I wonder what they'd have said if it had been?

rex-x

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I didn't.

My point is by not disclosing a material mod. like a remap you are quite deliberately jeopardizing your cover, and future insurability.

I'm all for a bit of fun, provided it's legal.

The insurance companies have made it so that its impossible to do it legally.... I spent many years getting shafted by Quinn Direct with my 50% increased premiums and engineers reports for being honest until Liberty took over and instead of a renewal sent me a PFO letter saying they didn't want my 10 years no claims and 0 points as I was too high risk...

At that point I gave up! There is not one single company in Ireland that will allow power related modifications and I wont be told what I can or cant do to my car :mad:

If I crash through someones fence and knock down their prize winning endangered zebra while sailing through their priceless art gallery I look forward to being sued by the insurance company who try to recoup their costs because I didn't tell them about my remap, bring it on

kirving

shietpilot wrote: »

Can you back this up and provide an example make/model that has a fuel pump capable of storing the maximum pressure ever requested?

As I said, an example only, but absolutely possible. But the reality is that there are dozens of indicators which could be left behind in software following a remap and subsequent removal.

If anything out of the ordinary is seen by certain components, then it could be logged as a fault. Accelerate too quickly for that model car? Maybe the acceleration sensor is faulty - car logs it just in case. Again an example that could be visible if looked for.

It's not as simple as just putting the old map back on the car if someone really wants to investigate. DTC's are only a small part of the equation when it comes to fault logging in a modern car.

shietpilot wrote: »

39 engine control units? Hmmm

Well, Electronic Control Units. Page 34 here (BIG PDF) actually shows locations of 48 different control modules. New cars would have many more.

grogi

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's the same wheel size but a wider tyre.

Diameter is a bit larger, around 4% iirc.

Henry Ford III

grogi wrote: »

And I have always declared different rim sizes. I was driving Prius on 205/55/r16 instead of 195/55/r16 and that was noted down by insurer as well.

That's the same wheel size but a wider tyre.

grogi

s15r330 wrote: »

Half the cars in the country must have void insurance as something as simple as bigger wheels is a modification..

And I have always declared different rim sizes. I was driving Prius on 205/55/r16 instead of 195/55/r16 and that was noted down by insurer as well.

Henry Ford III

Titzon Toast wrote: »

When did you turn into Ned Flanders?!
Lighten up man, he's not talking about swapping the engine or nailing an extra turbocharger to it.

@ the OP, get a remap and say nothing, they're great fun.

I didn't.

My point is by not disclosing a material mod. like a remap you are quite deliberately jeopardizing your cover, and future insurability.

I'm all for a bit of fun, provided it's legal.

dar83

Most aren't declared because it's usually the quickest way to be declined a quote, probably right after having a disqualification in the list, which is frustrating.

We really need a modification friendly insurer here, like Adrian Flux in the UK or similar. Problem is our market is too small to be appealing to companies like that, but you never know, hopefully with the shake up the industry might get here we might see the opportunities rising for full declaration and it not resulting in a blackballing of your car.

bazz26

It's a double edged sword really ~ being honest and declaring modifications gives insurance companies a license to print money which in turn discourages owners from declaring them.

I'd say the majority of modifications are not declared whether it be right or wrong.

bear1

amf78 wrote: »

Thanks to all for the useful information.
I do have one final question which might sound naive or beside the point but here it is.
Considering the fact that there are quite a few road worthy, perfectly legal cars in Ireland with more than 300 bhp under the bonnet, an increase from 150 to 170-180 bhp seems rather trivial.
Then what about heavily modified cars, who are clearly geared towards racing but cruise public roads without restrictions... where do those guys get insured?

Not sure what you mean by this? They get insured the same as the rest of us do. But those cars left the factory with that power. If they want to increase it then technically they would need to follow the same practice as informing the insurance company.

s15r330

Half the cars in the country must have void insurance as something as simple as bigger wheels is a modification.
Insurance companies would screw you without a second thought.
I have 3 tdi's all remapped. Nice boost in performance and improved mpg. Best money I spent on a car.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Are you advocating fraud there?

Have to laugh at people who portray this squeaky clean persona on public forums. Different story in real life i'd say.

shietpilot

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Even if the ECU is reset back to original, the fuel pump for example may log that a higher pressure than the original factory limit was requested. The only explanation for that would be a non-factory map. (maybe not, an example for this discussion).

Can you back this up and provide an example make/model that has a fuel pump capable of storing the maximum pressure ever requested?

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Directly from my car's manual below. Almost a 14 year old design as this stage but has 39 ECU's of different complexities around the car.

39 engine control units? Hmmm

amf78

Thanks to all for the useful information.
I do have one final question which might sound naive or beside the point but here it is.
Considering the fact that there are quite a few road worthy, perfectly legal cars in Ireland with more than 300 bhp under the bonnet, an increase from 150 to 170-180 bhp seems rather trivial.
Then what about heavily modified cars, who are clearly geared towards racing but cruise public roads without restrictions... where do those guys get insured?

selectamatic

PrzemoF wrote: »

/thread hijacked
Anyone recommended for mapping SLK200 2004 in Munster?

Think you need to swap to a smaller kompressor (supercharger) pulley to make it worthwhile as this will increase boost slightly a freer flowing exhaust would help too. I think a remap on its own would only see very marginal gains.

kirving

Directly from my car's manual below. Almost a 14 year old design as this stage but has 39 ECU's of different complexities around the car.

Even if the ECU is reset back to original, the fuel pump for example may log that a higher pressure than the original factory limit was requested. The only explanation for that would be a non-factory map. (maybe not, an example for this discussion).

I work in automotive electronics and this kind of stuff is routinely logged for warranty and debug purposes. The Tier 1 suppliers ensure this is stored so that they can properly diagnose faults and root cause the fault for the manufacturer (and avoid paying warranty cost if not at fault).

Don't believe for a second that Garda collision investigators won't rip out the ECU and bring it back to the manufacturer in the event of a serious collision.

One or more of the computers in your Volvo
are capable of recording detailed information.
This information is intended for use in
research to enhance safety and for diagnosing
faults in some of the in-car systems. The
data may include details regarding seatbelt
use by the driver and passengers, the functions
of various vehicle systems and modules,
and status information about the
engine, throttle, steering, brakes and other
systems. This data can also include details of
the way the car is driven. This type of information
can include, without being limited to,
specific details such as vehicle speed, the
use of the brake and accelerator pedals and
steering wheel position. This latter type of
data can be stored for a limited period while
the car is being driven and subsequently
during a collision or a near-collision. Volvo
Car Corporation will not disclose the stored
information without consent. However, Volvo
Car Corporation may be forced to disclose
the information due to national legislation.
Volvo Car Corporation and authorised Volvo
workshops may also read and use the information.

bear1

Here's an idea, call your insurer beforehand and ask them what their position is on this.
Saying it will affect your premium is not a given - the insurer may be fine with it or they will say well that will be an extra xxx euro or we will void you insurance policy if you do it.
You can either go the road where you tell them nothing and hope nothing happens or go the other road and declare all up front.

PrzemoF

/thread hijacked
Anyone recommended for mapping SLK200 2004 in Munster?

mikeecho

Nothing wrong with a reputable remap, just ensure that its served on time, every time. Or if you want to be a super caution Ned Flanders like me.. have oil and filter changed at half intervals.

30k between oil changes is far too long.. 15k.. i'm happy with that , especially if you have a reliable, dependable, cost effective mech

Titzon Toast

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Are you advocating fraud there?

When did you turn into Ned Flanders?!
Lighten up man, he's not talking about swapping the engine or nailing an extra turbocharger to it.

@ the OP, get a remap and say nothing, they're great fun.

bmstuff

amf78 wrote: »

Mercedes C-Class Coupe C220 CDI 2006 (automatic). BHP is currently 150 (148 actually).

I can remap your car safely to about 182Hp/403Nm (Stock 150Hp/340nm).
Nice difference, while not huge, you will definitely feel the difference.

Yes you are supposed to tell your insurance. Now there is virtually no way they can know. Connecting to ECU requires seriously specialised tools.

As for fuel economy usually around the city you won't see any difference (Depends of the car), but around motorway almost every time you will save between 1 to 5 Mpg on long runs.

As for wear and tear, usually those engines run at 60 to 80% of their capacity from factory for a few reasons, meet emissions regulations, noise, warranty on parts etc

Now remapping will ad turbo pressure, higher fuel flow, different timing etc, so engine will run more efficiently from a mechanical point of view within manufacturing tolerances (For those doing remaps properly).

Different components will wear out quicker over the course of a few years but also depending on your driving habits, like tyres if you like to floor it regularly, clutch will wear quicker if you drive like you stole it etc.
But that is true for any car, remapped or not.

But most cars when remapped properly will just behave better, no lag when driving off, have a kick when you need it, save you a bit of gas on the long runs, and put a smile on your face and offer happy motoring for several years.

Several cars will get an 40-50hp and 100Nm extra torque will be a lot faster though, so as usual when planning to get it remapped, make sure you car is in good condition, no oil leak, service performed regularly before and after, brakes and tyres in good condition.

Henry Ford III

Silane wrote: »

I don't think the TD1/2/3 flags work that way. The car has to be connected to Audi in Germany by an Audi dealership, then Audi compare the car's original ECU settings to what is currently on it, if it's changed they put the TD1 flag on it. So if you remap your car, and it never goes to Audi, it never gets a TD1 flag.

There's also the bluefin option, where you can remap the ECU, and in the event of an accident reset the ECU to original settings, there's no way an insurance assessor can see that (Without bringing the car to Audi).

Are you advocating fraud there?

amf78

vectra wrote: »

What car is it?
Some map great.
Other not much improvements can be had.

Mercedes C-Class Coupe C220 CDI 2006 (automatic). BHP is currently 150 (148 actually).

vectra

amf78 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm considering getting my car remapped but before doing that I would like to know if there are any adverse implications or legal issues involved.
I'm not talking about voiding the warranty (no longer relevant anyway), increasing fuel consumption or even shortening the engine lifetime.
I'm wondering about potential NCT issues, insurance, road tax and the ability to have it serviced.
Any advice is much appreciated.

Cheers!

What car is it?
Some map great.
Other not much improvements can be had.

grogi

amf78 wrote: »

Good question. But when asking which option to go for, I mainly had in mind performance/safety/horsepower boost rather than ability to hide it from insurer/manufacturer.

Direct flash will be better if the above are your concerns.