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Remapping implications

amf78

Hi,

I'm considering getting my car remapped but before doing that I would like to know if there are any adverse implications or legal issues involved.
I'm not talking about voiding the warranty (no longer relevant anyway), increasing fuel consumption or even shortening the engine lifetime.
I'm wondering about potential NCT issues, insurance, road tax and the ability to have it serviced.
Any advice is much appreciated.

Cheers!

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joujoujou

You must inform your insurer about that.

Silane

It will affect your insurance if you declare it. That's about it. Tax, servicing, NCT, and everything else is unaffected

Limbo123

Best of luck finding a company in Ireland that will insure you with a remap.

selectamatic

To my knowledge there isn't an insurance company in Ireland that can check if a car has been remapped or not. There's well known cases of tuning boxes causing issues after an assessor has found them but for a remap there is no physical evidence.

dar83

selectamatic wrote: »

To my knowledge there isn't an insurance company in Ireland that can check if a car has been remapped or not. There's well known cases of tuning boxes causing issues after an assessor has found them but for a remap there is no physical evidence.

I think this way of thinking is outdated by now. Yes if it's a standard looking car with no other visual modifications and/or the issue an insurance assessor is looking into was clearly not caused by speed etc... then most likely it will go unnoticed. However, there are assessors out there now that aren't stupid and they have been known to checking ECU's and what not to see if they're in a standard configuration, so I wouldn't go down the road of thinking that it's hidden and will never be found.

It is extremely difficult here to get insured with modifications, including remaps, but not impossible. The best method is to be with one of the bigger insurers and have a history with them. They're a lot more open in that case to allow you have modifications declared on your policy, but be prepared for a premium hike if it's anything that increases power by more than 5% or so. You've also got a much better chance of getting cover if the car you drive also comes in a configuration with more power that is already in their systems and that your remapped version would match more closely (this is the easier way!).

Limbo123

Axa wanted a full engineers report stating my catback did not increase power before they would even give me a quote and I had been with them for 6 years.

selectamatic

The parameters of the various readings from ecu's can change for a variety of reasons though and also many manufacturers have and still are making changes mid year and mid production therefore there isn't really any set criteria to go off.

I've never heard of a case where a remapped ecu has been flagged and I've never seen a story about it causing any issues in the media so is there any evidence to suggest otherwise?

mikeecho

OSI wrote: »

I've not heard of any. Although I would say it's probably easier now for insurers to know than ever, I know for example that VAG cars have a very simple flag on the ECU that tells anyone that's looking that the map has been unofficially modified, so no need to go comparing map figures.

And then you have the likes of BMW who will do an official remap, that they stand over.

grogi

mikeecho wrote: »

And then you have the likes of BMW who will do an official remap, that they stand over.

But that leaves too much paper trail IMHO.

Henry Ford III

selectamatic wrote: »

The parameters of the various readings from ecu's can change for a variety of reasons though and also many manufacturers have and still are making changes mid year and mid production therefore there isn't really any set criteria to go off.

I've never heard of a case where a remapped ecu has been flagged and I've never seen a story about it causing any issues in the media so is there any evidence to suggest otherwise?

Are you suggesting that it's okay to just say nothing to your insurer because of the unlikely chance of a remap being discovered?

That would be pretty blatant non disclosure I'd have thought.

selectamatic

mikeecho wrote: »

And then you have the likes of BMW who will do an official remap, that they stand over.

Didn't Volvo do one for the d5 engine too.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Are you suggesting that it's okay to just say nothing to your insurer because of the unlikely chance of a remap being discovered?

That would be pretty blatant non disclosure I'd have thought.

I didn't suggest anything. I simply stated a remapped ecu generally isn't an issue flagged by assessors.

Henry Ford III

selectamatic wrote: »

...I didn't suggest anything. I simply stated a remapped ecu generally isn't an issue flagged by assessors.

I think I'd agree that is most likely.

If they really want to dig in though and thoroughly investigate a claim I'm pretty sure they have the ability to open an ecu and see if it's in standard form or been messed with.

It'd be very unwise from an insurance perspective not to disclose such a material modification.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Silane

OSI wrote: »

I've not heard of any. Although I would say it's probably easier now for insurers to know than ever, I know for example that VAG cars have a very simple flag on the ECU that tells anyone that's looking that the map has been unofficially modified, so no need to go comparing map figures.

I don't think the TD1/2/3 flags work that way. The car has to be connected to Audi in Germany by an Audi dealership, then Audi compare the car's original ECU settings to what is currently on it, if it's changed they put the TD1 flag on it. So if you remap your car, and it never goes to Audi, it never gets a TD1 flag.

There's also the bluefin option, where you can remap the ECU, and in the event of an accident reset the ECU to original settings, there's no way an insurance assessor can see that (Without bringing the car to Audi).

grogi

Isn't there a flash counter as well? If the number of flashes doesn't match the number of authorised flashes, the car might get flagged too...

amf78

Thanks lads!
Reading you comments and digging deeper into this, it seems there 2 ways to achieve this: by re-programming the ECU (e.g. superchips) or by adding a chip which can be removed at any time without ever leaving a trace of its existence (chip express). Hmm...
Any idea about which to go for?

grogi

amf78 wrote: »

Thanks lads!
Reading you comments and digging deeper into this, it seems there 2 ways to achieve this: by re-programming the ECU (e.g. superchips) or by adding a chip which can be removed at any time without ever leaving a trace of its existence (chip express). Hmm...
Any idea about which to go for?

What happens if following an event you cannot remove the box from the engine? Many reasons for that - the access is removed (smashed bonnet, moved components in the engine bay etc) or you need to stay in hospital.

amf78

grogi wrote: »

What happens if following an event you cannot remove the box from the engine? Many reasons for that - the access is removed (smashed bonnet, moved components in the engine bay etc) or you need to stay in hospital.

Good question. But when asking which option to go for, I mainly had in mind performance/safety/horsepower boost rather than ability to hide it from insurer/manufacturer.

grogi

amf78 wrote: »

Good question. But when asking which option to go for, I mainly had in mind performance/safety/horsepower boost rather than ability to hide it from insurer/manufacturer.

Direct flash will be better if the above are your concerns.

vectra

amf78 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm considering getting my car remapped but before doing that I would like to know if there are any adverse implications or legal issues involved.
I'm not talking about voiding the warranty (no longer relevant anyway), increasing fuel consumption or even shortening the engine lifetime.
I'm wondering about potential NCT issues, insurance, road tax and the ability to have it serviced.
Any advice is much appreciated.

Cheers!

What car is it?
Some map great.
Other not much improvements can be had.

amf78

vectra wrote: »

What car is it?
Some map great.
Other not much improvements can be had.

Mercedes C-Class Coupe C220 CDI 2006 (automatic). BHP is currently 150 (148 actually).

Henry Ford III

Silane wrote: »

I don't think the TD1/2/3 flags work that way. The car has to be connected to Audi in Germany by an Audi dealership, then Audi compare the car's original ECU settings to what is currently on it, if it's changed they put the TD1 flag on it. So if you remap your car, and it never goes to Audi, it never gets a TD1 flag.

There's also the bluefin option, where you can remap the ECU, and in the event of an accident reset the ECU to original settings, there's no way an insurance assessor can see that (Without bringing the car to Audi).

Are you advocating fraud there?

bmstuff

amf78 wrote: »

Mercedes C-Class Coupe C220 CDI 2006 (automatic). BHP is currently 150 (148 actually).

I can remap your car safely to about 182Hp/403Nm (Stock 150Hp/340nm).
Nice difference, while not huge, you will definitely feel the difference.

Yes you are supposed to tell your insurance. Now there is virtually no way they can know. Connecting to ECU requires seriously specialised tools.

As for fuel economy usually around the city you won't see any difference (Depends of the car), but around motorway almost every time you will save between 1 to 5 Mpg on long runs.

As for wear and tear, usually those engines run at 60 to 80% of their capacity from factory for a few reasons, meet emissions regulations, noise, warranty on parts etc

Now remapping will ad turbo pressure, higher fuel flow, different timing etc, so engine will run more efficiently from a mechanical point of view within manufacturing tolerances (For those doing remaps properly).

Different components will wear out quicker over the course of a few years but also depending on your driving habits, like tyres if you like to floor it regularly, clutch will wear quicker if you drive like you stole it etc.
But that is true for any car, remapped or not.

But most cars when remapped properly will just behave better, no lag when driving off, have a kick when you need it, save you a bit of gas on the long runs, and put a smile on your face and offer happy motoring for several years.

Several cars will get an 40-50hp and 100Nm extra torque will be a lot faster though, so as usual when planning to get it remapped, make sure you car is in good condition, no oil leak, service performed regularly before and after, brakes and tyres in good condition.

Titzon Toast

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Are you advocating fraud there?

When did you turn into Ned Flanders?!
Lighten up man, he's not talking about swapping the engine or nailing an extra turbocharger to it.

@ the OP, get a remap and say nothing, they're great fun.

mikeecho

Nothing wrong with a reputable remap, just ensure that its served on time, every time. Or if you want to be a super caution Ned Flanders like me.. have oil and filter changed at half intervals.

30k between oil changes is far too long.. 15k.. i'm happy with that , especially if you have a reliable, dependable, cost effective mech

PrzemoF

/thread hijacked
Anyone recommended for mapping SLK200 2004 in Munster?

bear1

Here's an idea, call your insurer beforehand and ask them what their position is on this.
Saying it will affect your premium is not a given - the insurer may be fine with it or they will say well that will be an extra xxx euro or we will void you insurance policy if you do it.
You can either go the road where you tell them nothing and hope nothing happens or go the other road and declare all up front.

kirving

Directly from my car's manual below. Almost a 14 year old design as this stage but has 39 ECU's of different complexities around the car.

Even if the ECU is reset back to original, the fuel pump for example may log that a higher pressure than the original factory limit was requested. The only explanation for that would be a non-factory map. (maybe not, an example for this discussion).

I work in automotive electronics and this kind of stuff is routinely logged for warranty and debug purposes. The Tier 1 suppliers ensure this is stored so that they can properly diagnose faults and root cause the fault for the manufacturer (and avoid paying warranty cost if not at fault).

Don't believe for a second that Garda collision investigators won't rip out the ECU and bring it back to the manufacturer in the event of a serious collision.

One or more of the computers in your Volvo
are capable of recording detailed information.
This information is intended for use in
research to enhance safety and for diagnosing
faults in some of the in-car systems. The
data may include details regarding seatbelt
use by the driver and passengers, the functions
of various vehicle systems and modules,
and status information about the
engine, throttle, steering, brakes and other
systems. This data can also include details of
the way the car is driven. This type of information
can include, without being limited to,
specific details such as vehicle speed, the
use of the brake and accelerator pedals and
steering wheel position. This latter type of
data can be stored for a limited period while
the car is being driven and subsequently
during a collision or a near-collision. Volvo
Car Corporation will not disclose the stored
information without consent. However, Volvo
Car Corporation may be forced to disclose
the information due to national legislation.
Volvo Car Corporation and authorised Volvo
workshops may also read and use the information.

selectamatic

PrzemoF wrote: »

/thread hijacked
Anyone recommended for mapping SLK200 2004 in Munster?

Think you need to swap to a smaller kompressor (supercharger) pulley to make it worthwhile as this will increase boost slightly a freer flowing exhaust would help too. I think a remap on its own would only see very marginal gains.

amf78

Thanks to all for the useful information.
I do have one final question which might sound naive or beside the point but here it is.
Considering the fact that there are quite a few road worthy, perfectly legal cars in Ireland with more than 300 bhp under the bonnet, an increase from 150 to 170-180 bhp seems rather trivial.
Then what about heavily modified cars, who are clearly geared towards racing but cruise public roads without restrictions... where do those guys get insured?