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Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

gimmick

So this is a thread for your musings which do not deserve an entire thread of its own.

For example

I just watched Card Subject To Change. Horrific to think that since its been made the following has happened -

Kamala has become an amputee

Sensational Sherrie, Paul Bearer and Trent Acid are dead

Had Kevin Sullivan and Nancy stayed together one of Wrestlings darkest moments would be completely different or never would have happened.

Lacey Von Erich almost became a diva. She is also crazy hot. Pure nom.

I also mused that even while Sherri was a dispicable heel while she was on tv she may well have been my first celeb crush.

All this in one lazy evening.

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Insect Overlord

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say but don't you think there is a worrying prospect of others like Ryan with limited talent, who want to get a name for themselves, resorting to ever more low-rent tactics that you'd tend to associate with the likes of Steve-O, Johnny Knoxville etc? And I like watching those antics when I'm watching Jackass, but I don't like watching this being styled as pro wrestling, when to me it is embarrassing, stupidly phony, and in Ryan's case, sleazy and crass.

Hmmm. Sounds a lot like ECW to me...

Mr.Nice Guy

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Is your issue from a subjective moral standpoint, or are you coming concerned purely with the perception of the wrestling business?

My issue is that I see the spot as trashy, phony, and something that gives both wrestling and its fans a bad name.

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Hmmm. Sounds a lot like ECW to me...

ECW had to apologise for the crucifixion storyline which got them a ton of bad press. They lost out on acquiring Kurt Angle because he was so offended by that. You really think they would have endorsed a guy flipping people with his penis?

[Deleted User]

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

ECW had to apologise for the crucifixion storyline which got them a ton of bad press. They lost out on acquiring Kurt Angle because he was so offended by that. You really think they would have endorsed a guy flipping people with his penis?

Kurt himself had no problem saying he wanted to basically rape Sharmell Huffman. What, pray tell , has that got to do with athletic scripted finishes.

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

Kurt himself had no problem saying he wanted to basically rape Sharmell Huffman. What, pray tell , has that got to do with athletic scripted finishes.

It was suggested that ECW would have tolerated the Joey Ryan spot. But they had certain lines they would not cross. This whole debate is about where people happen to draw the line. (Or whether there is a line). I'm still not clear on what the Joey Ryan defenders happen to think on that.

What about this tweet from the chap himself which he later deleted...

https://twitter.com/KrisPLettuce/status/869342957631098880

Was this over the line, or is it all fair game in the race to the bottom?

Necro

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I agree with most of what you say but don't you think there is a worrying prospect of others like Ryan with limited talent, who want to get a name for themselves, resorting to ever more low-rent tactics that you'd tend to associate with the likes of Steve-O, Johnny Knoxville etc? And I like watching those antics when I'm watching Jackass, but I don't like watching this being styled as pro wrestling, when to me it is embarrassing, stupidly phony, and in Ryan's case, sleazy and crass.

I don't even like Jackass tbh so while I can certainly see there's a market for this type of low brow entertainment being included in pro wrestling (ECW became a household name off it long before Johnny Knoxville jumped into his shopping cart).

If there ever becomes a point where a spot involves men taking dumps on each other, be it indy, mainstream, whatever - I'll be signing off from watching (Porn Parodies excluded). I will add that hearing about stuff like this as a casual fan is what puts me off making time to watch anything outside of the mainstream of pro wrestling.

To be honest the main issue for me is that the Dick Slap spot is more of a talking point of what was (gathering from others) an excellent card. And if promoters see this and book accordingly to the low brow nonsense it's a worrying trend.

Like why aren't we talking about Marty Schurrl or the host of other talent on display that night rather than focusing on Joey ****ing nobody Ryan and his penis. This is the major issue imo. Foley and Cody are equally to blame for agreeing to be dick slapped imo.

A Brad Maddox Guy

Chances are the non-wrestling fans that talk down about wrestling won't ever see Joey Ryan's dickflip but whether they do or not won't actually change anything. Non-wrestling fans will not appreciate a 5* wrestling match in the exact same manner they won't appreciate Joey Ryan using the power of his penis to flip someone i.e. "why would anyone over 12 watch that fake sh*t".

(For the record I don't care for Joey Ryan or his **** but I can't imagine that it is even slightly affecting the business in a negative way as those who don't like it can stay oblivious to it 99% of the year as evidenced by there are regular posters on this wrestling forum who have no clue who he even is.)

Mr.Nice Guy

A Brad Maddox Guy wrote: »

Chances are the non-wrestling fans that talk down about wrestling won't ever see Joey Ryan's dickflip but whether they do or not won't actually change anything. Non-wrestling fans will not appreciate a 5* wrestling match in the exact same manner they won't appreciate Joey Ryan using the power of his penis to flip someone i.e. "why would anyone over 12 watch that fake sh*t".

(For the record I don't care for Joey Ryan or his **** but I can't imagine that it is even slightly affecting the business in a negative way as those who don't like it can stay oblivious to it 99% of the year as evidenced by there are regular posters on this wrestling forum who have no clue who he even is.)

Surely the goal of the industry is to try to create new fans and turn people from non-wrestling fans to fans. You're right that there are people out there who view wrestling as fake and embarrassing for anyone over 12. But this spot if they happen to see it is going to make them even more convinced of their negative view of wrestling. And it makes it even harder for those of us who value professional wrestling to explain to people why we enjoy it, when they are being given this impression that this is what wrestling is about.

And the guy is gaining notoriety. He is already signed to Lucha Underground and he is getting plenty of work at indy shows, while now he is involved in angles with fairly well known wrestlers like Rhodes and Foley. I don't see this as a case of "ignore him and he'll go away"; it's more a case of "ignore him and watch a dozen others follow his lead over the next decade, lowering the bar with sleazy shock antics."

Bounty Hunter

BWAs Joey Ryan is soo invading Monday Night Grappling (MNG) and d!ck slapping the crap outta your champ in next years draft. :pac:

It's so weird to think that Cody was facing Okada for the IWGP Heavyweight title last month but we are talking about his interacting with Joey Ryan's knob

Lithium93_

I'm sensing a split here in people who are "Not too bothered about the dick flip, it's only a comedy spot" and those who are of the "It's still real to us damn it/condemning said spot" train of thought.

If you're off the latter school of thought, just don't pay any attention, it's that simple really.

Mr.Nice Guy

Lithium93_ wrote: »

I'm sensing a split here in people who are "Not too bothered about the dick flip, it's only a comedy spot" and those who are of the "It's still real to us damn it/condemning said spot" train of thought.

If you're off the latter school of thought, just don't pay any attention, it's that simple really.

I'm sensing a split of those who view professional wrestling as a scripted competitive fight which is most successful and enjoyable when it is presented in a serious, dare I say professional way e.g. Lesnar and Joe recently, with those who think because kayfabe is dead that we should piss on the corpse "it's all fake sh*t so nothing matters", and who think phony, sleazy spots ought to be defended and encouraged even though they are polluting the business.

Bounty Hunter wrote:

BWAs Joey Ryan is soo invading Monday Night Grappling (MNG) and d!ck slapping the crap outta your champ in next years draft. :pac:

Can you imagine if I got Corny back?

Insect Overlord

Wrestling is a circus. It has the strong men, the trapeze artists, the tightrope walkers, the clowns, and the freaks. It's always been that way. How do you keep missing that point?

Mr.Nice Guy

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Wrestling is a circus. It has the strong men, the trapeze artists, the tightrope walkers, the clowns, and the freaks. It's always been that way. How do you keep missing that point?

You are the one that has missed the point. Spectacularly so. Wrestling has been around for over a hundred years and for the most part it has been presented the way I enjoy it, and when this was the norm wrestling was far more popular than it is today. Invisible hand grenades, penis slams, and guys no-selling being powerbombed off a ladder through a table are a relatively recent phenomenon.

whiskeygirl

People get so caught up in internet smarkdom these days that they forget that wrestling is lads/ladies pretending to fight, for a paycheck. There's no correct style or presentation, only people's opinions on such. If whatever this Ryan chap does gets more eyes on him and more money in his pocket, mission accomplished.

[Deleted User]

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Wrestling is a circus. It has the strong men, the trapeze artists, the tightrope walkers, the clowns, and the freaks. It's always been that way. How do you keep missing that point?

Because it's still real to him dammit.

He's content and happy to harp on about Joe and Kurt bringing legitimacy but is also happy to ignore Joe going around with a sharpened hunting knife and Angle wanting to have his way with Booker T's wife, ya know, in that animalistic beastiality way.

Wrestling is a show. It's got a bit of everything. MNG says wrestling had been at it's best when it focused on these legit athletic contests. Funny, I seem to remember the height of it being Austin terrorising Vince and making him p*ss his pants.... Somewhat close to his dreaded poo spot!

Lithium93_

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm sensing a split of those who view professional wrestling as a scripted competitive fight which is most successful and enjoyable when it is presented in a serious, dare I say professional way e.g. Lesnar and Joe recently, with those who think because kayfabe is dead that we should piss on the corpse "it's all fake sh*t so nothing matters", and who think phony, sleazy spots ought to be defended and encouraged even though they are polluting the business.

And those are your deeply entrenched views, and I respect your stance, but if you want serious/professionally presented fights, then maybe UFC is your proverbial cup of coffee. Or would the fight week press conference shenanigans take away from the serious/professional aspect?

Basically wrestling is a melting pot of what you deem the serious/professionally, and the phony/sleazy. Can't have it all one way without having some comedy, crass/sleazy humour along the way to lighten the tone.

Or maybe people would prefer it the one way and cut out the silliness, but again it works both ways.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pretending to fight? I can't recall seeing a fight where one guy used his penis as a weapon. Are there examples? What about imaginary hand grenades? Are they encouraged in any self-defence class?

All this talk has given me a great idea for the indy scene since there is such a market for imaginary spots and silliness (cos it's all a bit of craic you see). Here's what I'm thinking...

Wrestler A stands in his corner and begins simulating throwing hadoukens and sonic booms from Street Fighter. Wrestler B meanwhile stands in his corner and begins simulating throwing an imaginary pokeball with an imaginary Charizard inside. The imaginary hadoukens and sonic booms contest the imaginary flames from the imaginary Charizard.

This goes on for a good fifteen minutes or so until the "fight forever" chants begin to subside, and then the contest is eventually settled by a karaoke face-off involving which guy can best sing the most 90s cartoon intros. Proper hilarity to be had by all 59 fellas in attendance.

[Deleted User]

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Pretending to fight? I can't recall seeing a fight where one guy used his penis as a weapon. Are there examples? What about imaginary hand grenades? Are they encouraged in any self-defence class?

Is walking along a top rope while holding your opponents hand and jumping off it to hit him taught in self defense? Or is that reserved for undead zombie undertakers? Your argument is losing credibility big time the more you type.

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

Because it's still real to him dammit.

He's content and happy to harp on about Joe and Kurt bringing legitimacy but is also happy to ignore Joe going around with a sharpened hunting knife and Angle wanting to have his way with Booker T's wife, ya know, in that animalistic beastiality way.

Wrestling is a show. It's got a bit of everything. MNG says wrestling had been at it's best when it focused on these legit athletic contests. Funny, I seem to remember the height of it being Austin terrorising Vince and making him p*ss his pants.... Somewhat close to his dreaded poo spot!

Resorting to insults reflects more on you than me.

I never ignored any of that stuff you mentioned. A read back of the previous pages shows who was ignoring points and who wasn't.

Lithium93 wrote:

And those are your deeply entrenched views, and I respect your stance, but if you want serious/professionally presented fights, then maybe UFC is your proverbial cup of coffee.

Basically wrestling is a melting pot of what you deem the serious/professionally, and the phony/sleazy. Can't have it all one way without having some comedy, crass/sleazy humour along the way to lighten the tone.

Or maybe people would prefer it the one way and cut out the silliness, but again it works both ways.

I have what I want currently in the main event of Summerslam. A serious feud over a serious prize presented in a serious fashion. If wrestling goes the way of dick spots and imaginary hand grenades and that becomes the norm, then yes I will have to consider a move to UFC, or to a promotion that adheres to the traditional values of wrestling.

[Deleted User]

PS this is ironically the most I've EVER heard about Joey Ryan in the 5years or so that I've known about him. Well done Mr Nice Guy, you're giving air time and exposure (excuse the term) to the thing you hate. You've made people aware of him and his act that didn't know he existed and probably never would have. Phenomenal work sir.

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

Is walking along a top rope while holding your opponents hand and jumping off it to hit him taught in self defense? Or is that reserved for undead zombie undertakers? Your argument is losing credibility big time the more you type.

It's a whacky spot but it's not as bad as flipping a guy with your knob. I don't see this as an argument but if it were I think I already won after this:

Omackeral wrote:

Ok first of all I never said whether I liked the spot or not. I think it's daft. But others liked it. Having said that, I've been to OTT and have seen spots that would be crap if I was watching them from home but when you're there, they're a bit of craic. An example would be a fella using a Street Fighter style Hadouken move or Pastor William Ever doing holy moves like phantom chokeslams where he doesn't touch the guy but the dude bumps for a chokeslam anyway. They're silly but the live crowd like them.

There's more apparently...

Omackeral wrote:

PS this is ironically the most I've EVER heard about Joey Ryan in the 5years or so that I've known about him. Well done Mr Nice Guy, you're giving air time and exposure (excuse the term) to the thing you hate. You've made people aware of him and his act that didn't know he existed and probably never would have. Phenomenal work sir.

Erm, you're the one who said the guy should be ignored because he and his ilk catered to such a small crowd - before a few pages back proceeding to go and post a bunch of videos of hokey, imaginary crap and giving it a wider platform! That was the whole thrust of your earlier comments:

They'll never see it unless they're there. You say yourself there's only 100 or so at these type of shows. What harm?! It's a drop in the ocean! How does this not compute? I'm done with you on this. I can't state the same points over and over.

As I pointed out, I wasn't there and have seen it!

[Deleted User]

The main event features a fella who got locked inside an ambulance and crashed into by a truck... Real legit sporting athleticism there.

[Deleted User]

You seen obsessed with dicks and poop MNG. Every second post like.

Lithium93_

Omackeral wrote: »

PS this is ironically the most I've EVER heard about Joey Ryan in the 5years or so that I've known about him. Well done Mr Nice Guy, you're giving air time and exposure (excuse the term) to the thing you hate. You've made people aware of him and his act that didn't know he existed and probably never would have. Phenomenal work sir.

If the dick spot gets people who belong to the "it's still real to us" school of thought all into a conniption, I do wonder what they'd make of Being The Elite web series The Young Bucks have?

[Deleted User]

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's a whacky spot but it's not as bad as flipping a guy with your knob.

Again I never said one was better than the other. You're the one using legitimacy as the crux of your argument. Undertaker is one of the best and most famous of all time. He's also an undead zombie controlled by an magical urn.

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

You seen obsessed with dicks and poop MNG. Every second post like.

Oh look, more insults.

It's a bit difficult to discuss the dick spot without discussing dicks isn't it? And the mention of 'poop' was to see whether or not you would consider its use in a wrestling ring over the line, since you apparently don't feel that way about dicks?

But since you haven't answered that on any of the previous pages, I don't suspect I'll get an answer now.

Omackeral wrote:

Again I never said one was better than the other. You're the one using legitimacy as the crux of your argument. Undertaker is one of the best and most famous of all time. He's also an undead zombie controlled by an magical urn.

The crux of my argument is that flipping opponents with your knob is a sleazy, trashy spot. It crosses a line imo.

[Deleted User]

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The crux of my argument is that flipping opponents with your knob is a sleazy, trashy spot. It crosses a line imo.

Here's a mad idea. Don't watch his matches anymore. The end.

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

Here's a mad idea. Don't watch his matches anymore. The end.

Here's a mad truth: I don't watch his matches. His spot is gaining notoriety even amongst those who aren't watching as evidenced by the spot getting on HIGNFY on BBC for instance.

diusmr8a504cvk

I was at OTT last weekend, I thought that spot was hilarious and think his gimmick is great (he has a great look too, I actually like the hair on the chest). I've showed the original dick flip to my brother who's a lapsed fan and he loved it, he showed it to friends who aren't fans and they loved it.

I've been vocal in the past about frustrations with kayfabe, I prefer it to be either fairly serious or a piss-take like Joey Ryan, Colt Cabana etc.

Wrestling is all subjective and people should just enjoy what they enjoy and ignore what they don't. My favourite match of all-time is Ospreay vs Ricochet at the Best of the Super Juniors which is probably a controversial opinion but it's mine. Other people hate it then.

Mr.Nice Guy

Taylor Gray Physician wrote: »

I was at OTT last weekend, I thought that spot was hilarious and think his gimmick is great (he has a great look too, I actually like the hair on the chest). I've showed the original dick flip to my brother who's a lapsed fan and he loved it, he showed it to friends who aren't fans and they loved it.

I've been vocal in the past about frustrations with kayfabe, I prefer it to be either fairly serious or a piss-take like Joey Ryan, Colt Cabana etc.

Wrestling is all subjective and people should just enjoy what they enjoy and ignore what they don't. My favourite match of all-time is Ospreay vs Ricochet at the Best of the Super Juniors which is probably a controversial opinion but it's mine. Other people hate it then.

I showed it to a friend who is more of an MMA fan but a lapsed fan in the sense of having watched during the Attitude era. His response was to ask me why I still watch that stuff (meaning wrestling). I had to explain that this sort of thing embarrasses me as a fan and told him to instead look up what Brock did on Raw as he is aware of who Lesnar is.

You are right that it's all subjective. That's what makes the whole discussion largely pointless. I won't convince those in the camp that thinks it's hilarious that it's trash that has no place in the business, and likewise they won't convince me that this sort of thing is a positive.

Ali Bomaye

One thing I'll say about the Joey Ryan 'dick' spot from Wrestlerama is that it was a remarkable sell job by Foley. From what I've heard, he had a medic wrap his hand up the next night in Belfast and only shook hands lightly at the meet and greet as it was causing him too much pain. It's great to see that Foley is showing these youngsters how to sell effectively and keeping kayfabe alive.