GGG V Canelo - Sept 16th( See First post for Info on How to Watch)

Canelo is not out-boxing GGG.

hbhook wrote: »

Canelo is not out-boxing GGG.

Surely a little bit of assessment to back that up...

I think GGGs raw skills as regards pure boxing is getting overrated here.

He is more a pressure boxer-puncher who breaks you down as opposed to a pure technician type skilled boxer..

He is not Thomas Hearns...

He will not present overly difficult skills and physicality that Canelo can't cope with or hang with or best.

megadodge wrote: »

With all due respect, that there is a classical emotive post. You're obviously a big Golovkin fan (as am I) and you don't like Alvarez (unlike me). That's fair enough, but please don't let it cloud your judgment.

You claim GGG won't come out straight for Canelo - then claim that tactic is going to wear down the Mexican. That doesn't make sense. If he takes a slower approach it suits Canelo as his low punch output is definitely Canelo's biggest weakness. Setting a fast pace and forcing Canelo to throw more than he wants to is the ideal way to wear him down. If he tries to outbox Canelo I think he's going to get surprised, as I believe Canelo is the slicker boxer of the two.

You say GGG has world class power, timing and movement. Can't argue with the power and timing, but while his cutting off the ring is impressive his defensive movement is quite poor. You say the same cannot be said for Canelo, well his timing is every bit as good if not better than GGG, his feet are definitely slow but his defense is in a different class to GGG and it's time you and others started acknowledging this. He won't be able to walk through punches forever, especially as (unlike what you said) he has NOT been "hit flush by huge shots". What huge puncher ever hit him flush? Please don't use the non-puncher Daniel Geale's punch that landed on him just before he floored the Aussie. That was NOT a huge punch. The only huge puncher he has even faced is Lemieux who landed virtually nothing in their fight. And outboxing Lemieux is no great achievement.

As for comparing GGG and Mayweather? Seriously? You couldn't actually find two more differing boxers in terms of style. That fight has absolutely nothing to do with this.

The whole dismissive attitude to Canelo's chances is mind-boggling and a lot of it is based on the internet-led campaign of mis-information about weight. Even if he doesn't win he will make this so hard for Golovkin and that's why I'm looking forward to this fight more than any in recent times.

How is it an emotive post? I'm just giving my opinion. Just because I think GGG wins and it's not a 50/50 doesn't make me some GGG fanboy. I'm just saying as I see it which is different to you.

It does makes sense. GGG will cut the ring off and apply constant pressure with his footwork. He's not going to walk in all gun-ho though looking to land the big shot. He'll fight like he did against Lemieux imo. He wore Lemieux down without coming straight at him. It can be done through his superior footwork and jab.

I'm talking about foot movement. GGG's is world class. Canelo's isn't. Canelo has better defensive head movement I agree. A lot of GGG's defense is his offense. He makes fighters reluctant to trade with him due to his power.

Why are you questioning GGG's chin? It's proven at this point. There's a gif on this very page of him getting caught clean by Jacobs who is a huge puncher. Lemieux caught him clean on a couple of occasions too. He's never been knocked down in 380 fights. There's no arguement to be made there. His chin is rock solid. Chavez Jr walked through Canelo's biggest shots for 12 rounds and never looked like being stopped ffs.

I'm not comparing Floyd and GGG as fighters whatsoever either. You're putting words in my mouth there. I'm saying the last time Canelo stepped up to the elite level he looked like he wanted to quit by the end of it. I think that will happen again here despite his Mexican warrior reputation or whatever.

I honestly think people are trying to be too clever picking Canelo. There is nothing that points to Canelo giving him huge problems. If it was someone like Jermall Charlo who has speed, power, timing all at a very high level I'd understand it but the flat footed, sit against the ropes Canelo? Don't see it.

titan18 wrote: »

At his division, what would your definition of huge puncher be? Other than himself, they've been some of the hardest hitting guys around at his time at the top. Also, I'd put the not landing anything of note on Golovkin. All 3 are bigger hitters than Canelo is, and whilst Golovkin isn't a great defensive fighter, his offensive output ensures fighters aren't throwing much against him as they're mainly trying to survive.

LeMieux is a huge puncher. And that's it. Huge punchers are very rare.

Golovkin himself is also a huge puncher. Not quite as hard as Lemieux but that's nitpicking.

I have not seen Golovkin hit with a "huge" punch. That clip above showing the two punches landed by Jacobs shows two good hard punches but calling them "huge" is stretching it.

Canelo's skill levels are light years ahead of Rubio's and Stevens and in any fight give me skill over power. And it's not as if Canelo doesn't hit hard, he does. The most overrated attribute in all of boxing is power. Over and over again, especially on the internet, you see people favouring one boxer over another because he has more power. And over and over again they are proven wrong. That's not necessarily the case in this fight as GGG has skills, but I think Canelo's are better and slicker and I believe this will be shown in the early part of the fight. It's whether he can keep it going for the 12 rounds or build a big enough lead that makes it such a hard fight to predict.

GGG winning via brutal beat down stoppage should not be a surprise, but nor should Canelo out boxing him for a deserved points win..

If Canelo can either take or avoid enough heat he has the overall game to win rds. Simple!

Canelo wins and it will be his underrated defence that will prove pivotal..

His smooth punch delivery and clever shot selection and excellent punch variety will allow him to land fairly well here. He definitely hits hard enough to at least make GGG think.

Yes, in this match I think power will be important to Canelo. Enough of it to get GGGs respect is needed.

If Canelo wins on points it will be his defence that will get the most kudos..

Burial.

Jesus Canelo is one handsome bastard. Might be the best looking ginger man ever.

I really cannot pick a winner here. Ward/Kovalev and Spence/Brook where the last 50/50ish fights imo yet I was still relatively confident in my picks for Spence and Ward. Here I have no clue...there's so many ways this fight can go.

Alvarez has not prepared properly for this fight. GGG tko8.

hbhook wrote: »

Alvarez has not prepared properly for this fight. GGG tko8.

What?

walshb wrote: »

What?

Have you seen his last few fights?

pac_man wrote: »

For the people picking Canelo, how does he deal with the pressure? Will he be on the front foot at any stage during this fight?

Pressure as in GGG pressing forward and throwing shots?

I think Canelo's D will offset a lot of GGGs forward type pressure, and make no mistake, when Canelo lands clean and with his feet planted, then I think GGGs pressure won't be as impacting or forceful. We may see GGG really thinking twice before committing.

Also, Canelo could make GGGs shots fall short or hit thin air if Canelo can be very quick to react, use lateral movement, and good inside pocket defensive maneuvering.

Such an intriguing fight that I believe Canelo wins because A he defends very well and B he gets his shots off smoother, faster and more.

hbhook wrote: »

Have you seen his last few fights?

What has this to do with what you said?

He is not prepared or preparing for this fight...

walshb wrote: »

What has this to do with what you said?

He is not prepared or preparing for this fight...

As in his opponent selection. It could have been a tad better no?

hbhook wrote: »

As in his opponent selection. It could have been a tad better no?

Maybe...

But not sure how it will play such an important part here (as you seem to be implying).

I took it that you had some inside information as regards Canelo not preparing for GGG in a training capacity.

I think the only thing Canelo knows about middleweight is outweighing his recent opponents by about 20 lbs. Excluding Chavez jr. Who was dried out. That's what people find so laughable about Alvarez and his not ****ing around.

Morrison J wrote: »

How is it an emotive post? I'm just giving my opinion. Just because I think GGG wins and it's not a 50/50 doesn't make me some GGG fanboy. I'm just saying as I see it which is different to you.
.

I'm not saying you're a fanboy, but you don't need to be a language expert to spot the underlying theme in the following quotes...

His countering against undersized opponents who he has 10+ pounds on yeah

If Liam Smith can push Canelo up against the ropes and land on him I can't wait to see GGG do the same.

moves like his feet are under water too.

Canelo can act as macho as he likes,

Chavez Jr walked through Canelo's biggest shots for 12 rounds and never looked like being stopped ffs.

despite his Mexican warrior reputation or whatever.

the flat footed, sit against the ropes Canelo

Whether you want to admit it or not you very obviously dislike Alvarez and I believe it's clouding your judgment in this fight.

He'll fight like he did against Lemieux imo.

He probably will, but as I already said outboxing Lemieux is no great achievement. He's a terrific puncher but the rest of his game is middling at best. So, to be clear, just because that approach worked against Lemieux doesn't mean it will work against Canelo, especially as it was all about the jab and Canelo is one of the best counterers of a jab in all of boxing, plus his own jab is top notch.

I'm talking about foot movement.

I know you are.

And Golovkin's defensive footwork is poor.

A lot of GGG's defense is his offense. He makes fighters reluctant to trade with him due to his power.

Agree 100%.

Why are you questioning GGG's chin?

I never questioned his chin. I questioned your assertion that you've seen him hit by "huge punches and smile". I haven't. He's never been hit with a "huge" punch.

For the record I think his chin is top notch.

Chavez Jr walked through Canelo's biggest shots for 12 rounds and never looked like being stopped ffs.

Chavez Jr has a very good chin. Whereas Danny Jacobs was flattened face-first by Pirog who was a decent puncher but nothing outrageous.

You see, I can play that game too.

I'm not comparing Floyd and GGG as fighters whatsoever either. You're putting words in my mouth there. I'm saying the last time Canelo stepped up to the elite level he looked like he wanted to quit by the end of it.

What he looked was confused and demoralised. Simply because he had no answer to a more skilful and intelligent fighter, who was always one step ahead of him and who he couldn't hit. Somehow I don't think GGG will be as difficult to hit.

Plus, at least he has fought at elite level. Golovkin hasn't.

Don't see it

You definitely don't and I think it's because you dislike him so much, hence my use of the term "emotive".

I honestly have zero dislike for Canelo. The theme my posts follow are reasons why I think GGG wins. That happens to include picking out Canelo's faults that play into GGG's hands. Canelo is a brilliant fighter, just doesn't have the tools to beat GGG imo.

Saying Golovkin is just a puncher and the rest of his game is middling is absolutely insane btw. That's way harsher than anything I've said about Canelo and you're labelling me as having some kinda strong dislike for Canelo. You don't have a 345-5 record as an amateur without being a technically brilliant boxer. You're showing zero appreciation for GGG's ability to cut off the ring and judgement of distance which are elite traits. He's fundamentally spot on. Chin is always tucked in, jab always on point, never off balance. He has brilliant defensive footwork. It's not poor.

Both fighters are good defensively. Canelo is the more flashy with his head movement making his opponent miss completely which looks more impressive to the eye I suppose as well as setting himself up for landing big counters more effectively. Golovkin often allows his opponent to partially land by deflecting punches with his arms, shoulders and gloves or leaning back take the sting out of the punch. He's still exceptional at what he does.

Forget the Danny Jacobs fight. GGG hardly landed any big shots on him as he fought with his jab. Jacobs was absolutely massive compared to him. I'd be shocked if Canelo knocked Danny Jacobs out tbh. I'd also be amazed if Chavez Jr went 12 rounds as a punching bag against Golovkin. GGG would've got him out of there.

pac_man wrote: »

For the people picking Canelo, how does he deal with the pressure and why do you think his gas tank will hold up for 12 rounds? Will he be on the front foot at any stage during this fight?

This is one of the big things I can't get my head around. In all of Canelo's fights he sits against the ropes late on to get a breather. He does that against GGG he's cannon fodder. GGG is going to be cutting off the ring making sure Canelo has to work for every second in there. I've seen little to suggest Canelo won't be blowing out of his arse in the latter rounds.

Morrison J wrote: »

I honestly have zero dislike for Canelo. The theme my posts follow are reasons why I think GGG wins. That happens to include picking out Canelo's faults that play into GGG's hands. Canelo is a brilliant fighter, just doesn't have the tools to beat GGG imo.

Saying Golovkin is just a puncher and the rest of his game is middling is absolutely insane btw. That's way harsher than anything I've said about Canelo and you're labelling me as having some kinda strong dislike for Canelo. You don't have a 345-5 record as an amateur without being a technically brilliant boxer. You're showing zero appreciation for GGG's ability to cut off the ring and judgement of distance which are elite traits. He's fundamentally spot on. Chin is always tucked in, jab always on point, never off balance. He has brilliant defensive footwork. It's not poor.

Both fighters are good defensively. Canelo is the more flashy with his head movement making his opponent miss completely which looks more impressive to the eye I suppose as well as setting himself up for landing big counters more effectively. Golovkin often allows his opponent to partially land by deflecting punches with his arms, shoulders and gloves or leaning back take the sting out of the punch. He's still exceptional at what he does.

Forget the Danny Jacobs fight. GGG hardly landed any big shots on him as he fought with his jab. Jacobs was absolutely massive compared to him. I'd be shocked if Canelo knocked Danny Jacobs out tbh. I'd also be amazed if Chavez Jr went 12 rounds as a punching bag against Golovkin. GGG would've got him out of there.

I was referring to Lemieux's skills as middling, not Golovkin, so almost all the second paragraph can be wiped except the bit about GGG having "brilliant" defensive footwork. If it's so brilliant how come he's so easy to hit? And at that level he IS easy to hit.

You talk about Canelo's faults and never ever mention Golovkin's. Stubbornly ignoring the fact that he does NOT have a good defense is letting you down bigtime. It's the fact that we know he's going to get hit that makes this fight so intriguing for many.

megadodge wrote: »

I was referring to Lemieux's skills as middling, not Golovkin, so almost all the second paragraph can be wiped except the bit about GGG having "brilliant" defensive footwork. If it's so brilliant how come he's so easy to hit? And at that level he IS easy to hit.

You talk about Canelo's faults and never ever mention Golovkin's. Stubbornly ignoring the fact that he does NOT have a good defense is letting you down bigtime. It's the fact that we know he's going to get hit that makes this fight so intriguing for many.

My bad on reading that wrong!

I don't think GGG is that easy to hit at all tbh. He blocks a lot of punches and when he does get hit it's very rarely flush. He's a bit open to the uppercut which is one of my fears as Canelo throws a great uppercut but that's nowhere near a big enough factor to change my pick. If Canelo is coming into the pocket throwing flashy uppercuts he's going to get hurt. Just because I have a different opinion to you doesn't mean I'm stubborn or hate Canelo either. It's just my opinion.

Please watch this video from start to finish. Might make you appreciate what he does defensively that bit more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGpcxXzpms

Morrison J wrote: »

My bad on reading that wrong!

I don't think GGG is that easy to hit at all tbh. He blocks a lot of punches and when he does get hit it's very rarely flush. He's a bit open to the uppercut which is one of my fears as Canelo throws a great uppercut but that's nowhere near a big enough factor to change my pick. If Canelo is coming into the pocket throwing flashy uppercuts he's going to get hurt. Just because I have a different opinion to you doesn't mean I'm stubborn or hate Canelo either. It's just my opinion.

Please watch this video from start to finish. Might make you appreciate what he does defensively that bit more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGpcxXzpms

That video has convinced me!

Yup, all those punches I've seen Golovkin hit with were in my imagination!

I could (if I knew how) just as easily make a video showing Golovkin getting hit regularly. I could also make a video showing Arturo Gatti's defensive prowess, just by little snippets here and there from a few fights.

The reason we know Golovkin has such a good chin is because it has been checked so often. Never by a "huge" punch but by lots of decent punches and some pretty hard ones too.

We definitely disagree on this issue, but I'd be quite confident that you won't get too many who back your assertion that his defense is very good. I'm not saying (and never did) that it's brutal, but I don't think Canelo will find it hard to hit him.

No issue with arguing GGGs strengths in this match.

Power, chin, body punching, durability, jab, stamina, movement going forward etc..,

But fook off with defense...it's well down the list..unless there's some other version that I haven't seen?

megadodge wrote: »

That video has convinced me!

Yup, all those punches I've seen Golovkin hit with were in my imagination!

I could (if I knew how) just as easily make a video showing Golovkin getting hit regularly. I could also make a video showing Arturo Gatti's defensive prowess, just by little snippets here and there from a few fights.

The reason we know Golovkin has such a good chin is because it has been checked so often. Never by a "huge" punch but by lots of decent punches and some pretty hard ones too.

We definitely disagree on this issue, but I'd be quite confident that you won't get too many who back your assertion that his defense is very good. I'm not saying (and never did) that it's brutal, but I don't think Canelo will find it hard to hit him.

Well if you don't want to appreciate it so be it. It's the subtle things with him that he does so well.

I think he's a good defensive fighter. His control of distance is elite level. When Jacobs switched to southpaw it admittedly dazzled GGG a bit and it took him a while to adjust. He got hit a bit more often than usual. Canelo doesn't pose that problem though.

There have been moments where GGG has let his opponent hit him I have zero doubt about that. 2nd round of the Dominic Wade fight he literally signals to Wade to throw and drops his gloves before taking 2/3 clean shots and smiling back at him. He's admitted it and I believe him. I honestly don't think he minds being hit when he knows his opponent can't hurt him. Against a monster puncher in Lemieux he demonstrated why he's a good defensive fighter. Fighting a guy who can hurt him and putting on a masterclass in distance control showing his brilliant defensive footwork.

Morrison J wrote: »

Well if you don't want to appreciate it so be it. It's the subtle things with him that he does so well.

I think he's a good defensive fighter. His control of distance is elite level. When Jacobs switched to southpaw it admittedly dazzled GGG a bit and it took him a while to adjust. He got hit a bit more often than usual. Canelo doesn't pose that problem though.

There have been moments where GGG has let his opponent hit him I have zero doubt about that. 2nd round of the Dominic Wade fight he literally signals to Wade to throw and drops his gloves before taking 2/3 clean shots and smiling back at him. He's admitted it and I believe him. I honestly don't think he minds being hit when he knows his opponent can't hurt him. Against a monster puncher in Lemieux he demonstrated why he's a good defensive fighter. Fighting a guy who can hurt him and putting on a masterclass in distance control showing his brilliant defensive footwork.

You keep referring to the Lemieux fight but Lemieux and Alvarez are nothing alike. Lemieux is a wild gunslinger, who regularly lunges and overbalances and almost never throws a straight punch. God help you if he connects, but Golovkin did exactly what any top class boxer should do to him. He outboxed him. And I repeat, that's no major achievement, so stop pretending it is.

megadodge wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Well if you don't want to appreciate it so be it. It's the subtle things with him that he does so well.

I think he's a good defensive fighter. His control of distance is elite level. When Jacobs switched to southpaw it admittedly dazzled GGG a bit and it took him a while to adjust. He got hit a bit more often than usual. Canelo doesn't pose that problem though.

There have been moments where GGG has let his opponent hit him I have zero doubt about that. 2nd round of the Dominic Wade fight he literally signals to Wade to throw and drops his gloves before taking 2/3 clean shots and smiling back at him. He's admitted it and I believe him. I honestly don't think he minds being hit when he knows his opponent can't hurt him. Against a monster puncher in Lemieux he demonstrated why he's a good defensive fighter. Fighting a guy who can hurt him and putting on a masterclass in distance control showing his brilliant defensive footwork.

You keep referring to the Lemieux fight but Lemieux and Alvarez are nothing alike. Lemieux is a wild gunslinger, who regularly lunges and overbalances and almost never throws a straight punch. God help you if he connects, but Golovkin did exactly what any top class boxer should do to him. He outboxed him. And I repeat, that's no major achievement, so stop pretending it is.

Stop concentrating on Lemieux then! I'm talking about how GGG fought tactically that night, not how good his opponent is. He fought to a completely different plan compared to how he faces fighters who he knows can't hurt him. In those fights he doesn't mind taking a shot in order to land a shot because he knows the fight isn't going the distance. That's why I think some people unfairly label him as easy to hit.

Morrison J wrote: »

Stop concentrating on Lemieux then!

You should heed your own advice.

You're either missing my point completely or just choosing to ignore it. Fair enough.

GGG doesn't get hit clean often when he doesn't want to get hit clean often. That's the bottom line.

pac_man wrote: »

We seem to be on the same page. I'm not sure if you mentioned it already but what do you make(if any) the decline in Golovkin. He didn't look too hot in his last two performances? Probably a year ago, I would be very very confident that Golovkin destroys Canelo, now I'm a little concerned that he might become old overnight( well the warning signs are there imo).

It's ****ing great match making. And I'm not taking away from the fight there at all or tryna slag anybody!

pac_man wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

This is one of the big things I can't get my head around. In all of Canelo's fights he sits against the ropes late on to get a breather. He does that against GGG he's cannon fodder. GGG is going to be cutting off the ring making sure Canelo has to work for every second in there. I've seen little to suggest Canelo won't be blowing out of his arse in the latter rounds.

We seem to be on the same page. I'm not sure if you mentioned it already but what do you make(if any) the decline in Golovkin. He didn't look too hot in his last two performances? Probably a year ago, I would be very very confident that Golovkin destroys Canelo, now I'm a little concerned that he might become old overnight( well the warning signs are there imo).

It doesn't really worry me at all to be honest. He might naturally be on the slight decline but it's hard to read with his last two opponents. GGG is too fundamentally sound and has too much power to decline overnight imo too.

The Brook fight doesn't bother me at all because I honestly think it was a case of GGG not minding to take two or three shots in order to land one. Brook didn't have the power to keep him off him.

I thought GGG dominated Jacobs for the first 5 or so rounds behind his jab before Jacobs started to switch to southpaw, give GGG different looks and make things awkward. Canelo can only fight out of one stance so that doesn't worry me whatsoever. There is also the matter that Jacobs skipped the check weigh in and came in absolutely massive. GGG fought a very conservative fight as he respected Jacobs size/power. Again, this won't be a factor against Canelo.

Both Jacobs and Brook had the legs to stay on the outside and keep GGG off him to an extent. Jacobs had more joy than Brook obviously as eventually GGG just started walking straight through Brook instead of cutting the ring off laterally. Jacobs had too much power for GGG to do that which made things tricky. Canelo fights in cement so again this won't be an issue at all.

If Canelo's last two fights were Trout and Lara there would be absolutely nobody in this thread picking him. They see him fight Khan, Liam Smith and the corpse of Chavez Jr and that all changes. I can't see the logic. People seeing GGG take some clean shots against Brook and using it as a reason to pick Canelo are so so far off the mark imo. Different style match ups entirely. Fighters who have good feet and good power will give GGG problems. Canelo has neither of these at 160. I honestly think the Jermall Charlo fight is a way better fight if he can take a shot which is yet to be proven.

pac_man wrote: »

Question for you. Let's say you have a few quid on Canelo to win. Would you feel comfortable with his tendency to be on the ropes slipping shots, parrying or trying to shoulder roll with golovkins work?

My worry if I had money on GGG is that many times he takes a fraction too long to let the shots go, and against Canelo that could be damaging, because Canelo is such a smooth shooter. So it's a double whammy for GGG. He's that bit slow to let the shots go, and Canelo is letting go, because he does let go fluidly and with confidence. GGG may find that he is in range and about to shoot, and suddenly he is taking shots of having to defend. His offensive charges taken away from him.

I do not think Canelo will be on the ropes only defending.....that is the key. He will be also shooting and landing.