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Season 7 Episode 3 "The Queen's Justice" - "Book readers"

Nody

Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

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Gbear

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Sansa would have known about that though. And it didn't involve Littlefinger.

Well the entire plot was devised by him.

Lysa killed Jon Arryn so that she and Littlefinger could be together.

I didn't think much of Bran's dismissal about explaining what he is.
It really isn't that complicated a story.
"Bloodraven became a tree-man in a cave. He had visions of the past/present/future. He taught me to do it. I can control animals, speak through birds, see through trees."
See? Easy. Done.

It's just hard to believe, except that they already believe in the Others and he can prove everything with relative ease.

CMOTDibbler

Gbear wrote: »

Well the entire plot was devised by him.

Lysa killed Jon Arryn so that she and Littlefinger could be together.

None of that is in the letter though. Sansa knows Littlefinger killed Lyssa, so she's kind of complicit in that plot already.

If there's more in writing about what Littlefinger agreed with the Boltons, that's a different story. He protested his lack of knowledge of Ramsay to defend the marriage arrangement.

There could well be more incriminating communications.

podgemonster

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I actually thought that was a guilty twitch tbh. I mean Littlefinger presumably sent ravens to the Boltons to set up Sansa's marriage. And possibly other things...

Maester Luwin was dead by then.

The intention of the letter "Lysa" sent isn't to warn Cat. It's to plant a seed of immediate distrust between the two houses which leads to Cat capturing Tyrion.

Sansa knows Lysa killed Jon Aryn under LF manipulation. She doesn't know LF manipulated her mother and father also.

Dyr

leggo wrote: »

Once their rulers have been killed, either the heads of the armies remaining loyal to their old lords etc would be killed themselves and the rest would get in line under the new rule. In this case, Randyll will have taken over. So it's get with the programme with him or die. In theory, someone else could gather the troops and rally them around another cause, but who is there left?

First rule of dynasties is there's always someone left, you think the westeros nobility make such a big deal out of lineage but none of these families have cousins/uncles/in laws waiting to step in?

tbh the whole "game of thrones" portion of the series is tedious now because its both convoluted and unbelievable.

mewso

Enjoyed bar a few things. Sansa decides they need food and leather in armour. q.e.d she is a natural leader. Bran is now a full mystic so has to talk slowly and say f all. Tiresome and contributed to making what should have been an emotional reunion pathetic unfortunately.

The only chance Littlefinger has some genius plan is if it is already written/planned by GRRM because when it comes to the show writers they have him marrying Sansa to Ramsay in the hope Stannis will beat him and declare Sansa wardeness of the north which was quite a gamble since by putting it in motion he had declared to Cersei that he was involved in the murder of her son. So fingers crossed whatever he is up to its a GRRM plot point.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

lawlolawl wrote: »

The teleporting armies/people

/Yawn, this argument is getting boring...

Kiith wrote: »

Littlefingers turn of the head when the Maester said that the previous Maester kept detailed notes from all previous ravens...guess that's how Littlefinger will find out about Jon's heritage, and use that to (try and) screw him over.

Decent episode overall.

I thought the same, I also thought it was a really dumb idea to keep a record of every single raven and then for the maester to announce it to everybody in earshot.

Bambi wrote: »

First rule of dynasties is there's always someone left, you think the westeros nobility make such a big deal out of lineage but none of these families have cousins/uncles/in laws waiting to step in?

tbh the whole "game of thrones" portion of the series is tedious now because its both convoluted and unbelievable.

Jamie said in the last episode that there is nobody of importance left. He likely has relatives who are too low on the ladder of power to make a difference. I can't imagine they would put in a claim to the throne or to casterly rock.

laugh

Daenerys' character makes no sense, on the other side of the sea she's a chain breaking socialist, now she's all about knee bending and her familial claim to the throne like her brother.

rawn

laugh wrote: »

Daenerys' character makes no sense, on the other side of the sea she's a chain breaking socialist, now she's all about knee bending and her familial claim to the throne like her brother.

You have read the books, right?

Tigger

Daleyza Better Headphone wrote: »

Just noticed the parallels between what Littlefinger was saying to Sansa before Bran's arrival and the powers Bran actually has.. is that meant to just be a coincidence or maybe Littlefinger knows/is capable of more than one would expect?

Yeah was wondering the exact same

xper

Liam O wrote: »

Speaking of Varys, I felt he could have provided both Dany and Jon with a lot of information that could have made their disagreements a bit less tense such as Ned's stance on the poisoning plot especially. He seems to be a lot more out of the loop than he should be in general so interested in whether he's up to something in the background or it is just the writers hoping people forget about his past. I'd be inclined to go for the latter but maybe I should have more faith.

How about Varys has previously told Dany exactly that information about Ned's opposition to her assassination and she was just provoking Jon?

lawlolawl wrote: »

The teleporting armies/people and Varys turning into the worst spy ever are making this season rather brainless.

Varys lost his little birds to Qyborn when he fled Westeros with Tyrion. No doubt he has been busy building a network again starting with his diplomatic mission to Dorne but its entirely plausible that he has less intel coming in than when he was well established in King's Landing.

laugh wrote: »

Daenerys' character makes no sense, on the other side of the sea she's a chain breaking socialist, now she's all about knee bending and her familial claim to the throne like her brother.

It makes total sense. She's been declaring herself true Queen of the Seven Kingdoms for several seasons now. That's kind of her whole bit. She wants to be a good ruler, but a ruler nonetheless. Like the others born into nobility in this GoT world, she believes the privileged position she has/claims is hers by birthright.

podgemonster wrote: »

Lysa Ayrn's letter to Cat from Season 1 Episode 1 claiming the Lannisters killed Jon Ayrn comes to mind.

Cat burned that letter immediately in the hearth - both in the episode and the book.

Come on people, keep up, this is the book readers' thread!

After watching this episode tonight, I flicked over to a documentary about Excalibur followed by the film itself on RTE. It was an interesting juxtaposition. There are definite similarities at points in style and themes between the two productions.

Tigger

neirbloom wrote: »

Jon is actually Rhaegar Targaryens son Daenerys brother, which would make Daenerys Jons aunt.

He's also a stark tho through Lyanna

Tigger

podgemonster wrote: »

I don't question the dialogue given to Dany, its fine, but Clarkes delivery lacks complexity.

She no doubt been directed to be more stern, composed and regal but she's the Mother of Dragons not an Ice Queen. Every order, every move has come from Tyrion, we know her past, this "New Role" is just that she's on the offence for a change, its still the Dany we've watch for 6 seasons. She's unsure of what to do and everything so far has gone against her yet we see no vulnerability in the performance, no doubt, no frustration, she remains passive, still, no spark.

Dinklage, Cunningham and Harrington are out acting her in every scene.

In fairness Cunningham and Dinklage are fantastic actors and Harrington rises to being JS

Tigger

Liam O wrote: »

I guess it's a problem you run into when you kill entire families rather than individuals. Grey Worm saying "where are the Lannisters" I thought was funny because as far as anyone is concerned there only seems to be 2 Lannisters left. If Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion bite the dust which isn't out of the question they don't even have a background character to take over now that Kevan and Lancel have both been chopped.

It just takes the scale and complexity out of it. There's not one character who is in power because of succession which is a little bit bonkers.

Lady Mormont ?

CMOTDibbler

podgemonster wrote: »

Maester Luwin was dead by then.

The intention of the letter "Lysa" sent isn't to warn Cat. It's to plant a seed of immediate distrust between the two houses which leads to Cat capturing Tyrion.

Sansa knows Lysa killed Jon Aryn under LF manipulation. She doesn't know LF manipulated her mother and father also.

But that's a letter from Lysa. Not from Littlefinger. It couldn't be definitive that Littlefinger was behind that letter. Littlefinger could just play dumb on that angle and say that all he wanted was to marry Lysa.

And Sansa was complicit in Lysa's death (complicit in its knowledge and concealment). She'd hardly want to bring that up.

xper wrote: »

Cat burned that letter immediately in the hearth - both in the episode and the book.

Come on people, keep up, this is the book readers' thread!

But the point of that scene was that Maester Luwin was said to make a copy of all rmails received at Winterfell. You'd assume that letter was also copied.

I think I need to re-read that letter. I'm intrigued as to how it could be damaging to Littlefinger.

Edit: Actually scratch that. In the book, the letter arrived mysteriously in a box containing a lens and was written in a code only Catelyn and Lysa knew.

razorblunt

The Jon - Tyrion reunited was executed better and had a bigger impact than Sansa - Bran.
Bran the pain in the hole.

-EDIT- ah meant Bran, the "dry as your shie from the flakes" lad.

CMOTDibbler

razorblunt wrote: »

The Jon - Tyrion reunited was executed better and had a bigger impact than Sansa - Bronn.
Bronn the pain in the hole.

Bronn? :eek:

eeguy

razorblunt wrote: »

The Jon - Tyrion reunited was executed better and had a bigger impact than Sansa - Bronn.
Bronn the pain in the hole.

Bran

murpho999

mewso wrote: »

Enjoyed bar a few things. Sansa decides they need food and leather in armour. q.e.d she is a natural leader. Bran is now a full mystic so has to talk slowly and say f all. Tiresome and contributed to making what should have been an emotional reunion pathetic unfortunately.

The only chance Littlefinger has some genius plan is if it is already written/planned by GRRM because when it comes to the show writers they have him marrying Sansa to Ramsay in the hope Stannis will beat him and declare Sansa wardeness of the north which was quite a gamble since by putting it in motion he had declared to Cersei that he was involved in the murder of her son. So fingers crossed whatever he is up to its a GRRM plot point.

It was only Littlefinger who said that command suited her and you know he's just manipulating her.

With Brann they are showing how he has changed after what he has been through and is less emotional than he was.

The reunion was made to look pathetic on purpose. This isn't The Waltons.

bnt

mewso wrote: »

Enjoyed bar a few things. Sansa decides they need food and leather in armour. q.e.d she is a natural leader. Bran is now a full mystic so has to talk slowly and say f all. Tiresome and contributed to making what should have been an emotional reunion pathetic unfortunately.

"should have been"? If GoT teaches us anything, it's to be wary of expectations. An emotional reunion would have been too easy. Bran is beyond emotion now. The way he talked to Sansa about her rape at the hands of Ramsay Bolton tells us he doesn't relate to her any more. He's back in person, but his mind is everywhere. So Sansa has one more loss to deal with.

Daith

bnt wrote: »

"should have been"? If GoT teaches us anything, it's to be wary of expectations. An emotional reunion would have been too easy. Bran is beyond emotion now. The way he talked to Sansa about her rape at the hands of Ramsay Bolton tells us he doesn't relate to her any more. He's back in person, but his mind is everywhere. So Sansa has one more loss to deal with.

I agree with that though I think Bran was trying to express some sadness that he couldn't protect Sansa or that she went through it in his own way. Maybe I'm giving the show too much credit there.

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CMOTDibbler

....... wrote: »

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I think I posted this before, but at sea level, the horizon is less than three miles away. So the ships at anchor wouldn't have seen them until they were about half an hour away at most.

To get a ship at anchor back under way would take at least twice that long and depending on the prevailing wind could even be longer. A big attacking fleet can spread out and literally cut off all avenues of escape. They'd be just sitting ducks.

Dyr

Maxine Nutty Form wrote: »

Jamie said in the last episode that there is nobody of importance left. He likely has relatives who are too low on the ladder of power to make a difference. I can't imagine they would put in a claim to the throne or to casterly rock.

That's my point, the whole reason familial succession works is there's always someone to provide continuity, this lark of the major royalty having f**k all siblings, children or relatives is a bit daft, even given the GRRM mortality rate.

The other reason the whole battle for the throne has become a pain in the arse is that now the legion of the frosty dead are on the march we know its all irrelevant.

Although it's ironic that the one thing the white walkers cant seem to do is walk at a decent clip. I assume they don't need sleep but they're still meandering their way towards the wall while everyone elses army is pissing around Westeros like they're a Donegal teenager in a Toyota MR2

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CMOTDibbler

Bambi wrote: »

That's my point, the whole reason familial succession works is there's always someone to provide continuity, this lark of the major royalty having f**k all siblings, children or relatives is a bit daft, even given the GRRM mortality rate.

What are we talking about though? Dorne?

There may well be some heir somewhere in the wider branches of the family tree, but there could also be many such and squabbling ensuing as to who takes over. And having just lost their current ruler to Cersei and her allies, would there be any appetite to take up the sword against her again?

These houses don't generally have standing armies either. They rely on their bannermen to provide the cannon fodder. Presumably that's who Ellaria was heading home to rally. So with a power vacuum and possibly some of those same bannermen jostling for succession, the chances of their being any army ready to march would be slim to none.

CMOTDibbler

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Yes, they could have had lookouts on land. But there's a battle going on there, so signalling the ships would be difficult if not impossible. The lookout(s) would possibly have to physically get to the ships to warn them.

But even if they had advance warning, what have they got to defend with? All the soldiers are on land. The crews would be small in number and would literally be tied up trying to get the ships under way. You seem to think a sailing ship can manoeuvre easily as if it were driven by motor. If Euron's ships are coming in on an on shore wind (and their sails were full, so that's a given), the anchored ships would have to tack back and forth to try and get out to sea. That can take literally hours. If they'd had the unsullied on board, they perhaps could have rowed out. Which is the usual method for galleys like that to get out to sea against the prevailing wind.

mewso

bnt wrote: »

"should have been"? If GoT teaches us anything, it's to be wary of expectations. An emotional reunion would have been too easy. Bran is beyond emotion now. The way he talked to Sansa about her rape at the hands of Ramsay Bolton tells us he doesn't relate to her any more. He's back in person, but his mind is everywhere. So Sansa has one more loss to deal with.

I understand Bran is now 'beyond' emotion. That is my issue. The cliche that is "getting magic power thingy makes you emotionally stunted"tm.

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CMOTDibbler

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And it's very basically countered. Once an attacking ship gets in line with the defending ones, they can wreak havoc and the defenders can't attack without the possibility of hitting their own ships.

If they even have anything to hit them with. The galleys they had were smaller and didn't appear to have the ballistas or whatever weapon Euron's fleet had for throwing their fireballs. If they had, you'd think they'd have been using them to attack Casterly Rock.

There's a reason that naval ports through the ages have had permanent defensive emplacements on land. Ships at anchor are vulnerable. If there was a better defensive arrangement, it would have been to have their ships further out to sea. At least then they'd have had sea room to manoeuvre and spread out making it much harder for Euron to destroy them. But that would have the downside of them not being close to shore to bring the troops off if the land battle was going badly.

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