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Stormont power sharing talks

Baralis1

I think the provisionals need to take their seats at Westminster now that they can't get the assembly up and running. Otherwise, the nationalist community are going to have absolutely no say in anything to do with the governance of NI or Brexit and the DUP and Tories will call all the shots.
By the way, there's no way that any right minded individual can call Ulster Scots a language. It's just pronouncing and writing English words in a Scottish accent. Irish is obviously the native language of Ireland. Having said that, I don't think it's a critical issue for it to have parity with English in NI. Surely there are more pressing issues

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Chips Lovell

Can I remind everyone that the topic of this thread is the current Stormont negotiation. Stick to the topic at hand. And please bear in mind the charter:

High standards of debate and quality posts / threads are required. Repeated one liner, low quality style posts will result in a ban. Threads (and posts) that are not based on serious and legitimate Political discussion will be deleted without warning. For the lighter side of Politics we have the Politics Cafere.

If you can't have proper discussion without resorting to the usual petty bickering that characterises so many Northern Ireland threads, expect to be banned from the discussion.

Thanks

Thomas__

Irishweather wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Quite right and it´s really curious that the English managed to suppress the Irish language as well as the Scottish Gaelic. In some other colonies, they also forced English on the natives but couldn´t succeed to root it out in their minds and the use of the language. So, many of the former colonies of the BE are bilingual, which bears some advantages.

I have little to nearly very less knowledge of the Irish language, always it is the problem to know how written words are pronounced but when I listen to it, it is clear to me, from the sound of it that this is the real native language of the Irish. That´s because what one perceives as an accent in English it´s the native one that fits Irish. It´s similar to the Scots. Very distinguished from all the accents by native English speakers in England.

Why is the Northern Irish accent so different, then?

Well, you should know it yourself, shouldn´t you? I´m not the one to explain that to you, as you´re by appearence an Ulsterman yourself. No offence intended, but one has to listen carefully to distinguish between someone from NI and someone from Scotland cos sometimes, they sound very similar.

There is just one thing which I still find somehow curious and it is that I wonder what the Ulster-Scots have done to get that much ridicule because of their way to talk and the language they speak which is imo more that comparable to a dialect than just an accent. It´s one Thing to pull someones leg for being a Unionist or Loyalist, cos that has some political meaning, but to have a go at one for his accent or dialect and make it ridiculous is a tad beyond my approval.

Irishweather

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

To paraphrase Paisley, it is a Protestant organisation for a Protestant people.

Their latest RIP remarks are exclusionary to certain groups of Protestants. Not very inclusive.

I suspect they are coming from the Presbyterian/Reformed mindset. I wonder how the Anglican members feel.

Although having visited an Anglican Church in England and a COI here in Northern Ireland, they both seemed vastly different, so maybe the COI does this in NI too.

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody today can speak Ogham, the pre-Celtic language of Ireland that was replaced by the invading/migrating Celts. If you truly believe the nonsense about the invader/coloniser, then you should be rejecting both Irish and English.

The reality today is that you look at modern Irish culture and you see the predominant influence of the English language with a nod to the Irish language. The predominant Irish authors write in English and the predominant
Irish musicians sing in English (even the Wolfe Tones!!!). Yes, the Irish language has its place in modern Irish culture but it is a small place.

This was important enough to be agreed at St Andrew's, as equally important as reform of and recognition of the police force was.

The issue here is not what you think about Irish but what do you think of the DUP cherrypicking one democratically agreed clause out of an agreement and blocking it's progress. Is that RIGHT or WRONG in the opinion of a 'constitutional' anything?

For my part, I can clearly state that the refusal on the DUP´s side is utterly wrong. They have painted the Irish language in their perception as something that is strong related with SF and the IRA and forgot that many of their forebears were fluent Irish speakers themselves. Dragging language and culture into political games is a wrong doing per se.

Irishweather

Thomas__ wrote: »

Quite right and it´s really curious that the English managed to suppress the Irish language as well as the Scottish Gaelic. In some other colonies, they also forced English on the natives but couldn´t succeed to root it out in their minds and the use of the language. So, many of the former colonies of the BE are bilingual, which bears some advantages.

I have little to nearly very less knowledge of the Irish language, always it is the problem to know how written words are pronounced but when I listen to it, it is clear to me, from the sound of it that this is the real native language of the Irish. That´s because what one perceives as an accent in English it´s the native one that fits Irish. It´s similar to the Scots. Very distinguished from all the accents by native English speakers in England.

Why is the Northern Irish accent so different, then?

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

This is the one thing you can´t get out of their heads and hearts of course. It is like some elementary credential in their mindset, collectively applying for many of the Prods. I have given up to debate about this matter with "Ulstermen" as they are too deep rooted in this mentality. When looking at the other community in NI, they might have more reasons to complain for what the minority with the siege complex has done to them, but one can see by many of the CNRs, that they are more progressive and may have overcome some injustice from the past, but that doesn´t means that they have forgotten anything at all. Just they don´t stick to this siege mentatily. That is some aspect which distinguishes those two communities.

I´ve come across various NI Posters who regret it that they couldn´t learn Irish in School cos it was never on the curriculum and everybody knows why. Needless to say that they are of Republican background. On the other Hand, I have come across various posters from the Republic of Ireland who often stated that they have no interest in Irish at all and that they had to learn it in School because it was on the curriculum but don´t use it in their daily life anyway. Some of them were even a bit hostile towards TG4 for which I never had any understanding anyway. I think that it is good that the Irish State is maintaining the teaching of Irish and thus a part of Irish culture which is at the core of the whole Islands history. But let´s be honest, people use that language they are used to it in their daily life.

I´m currently reading the book "Ireland´s Invasion of the World, The Irish diaspora in a nutshell " by Miki Garcia. An interesting reading and although there are passages one knows anyway when one is familiar with Irish history, it was really interesting to learn how many words used in the English language originate and derive from the Irish language. He listed some of them, making a couple of lines in that book.

Unionist leader after leader has at times fed that siege mentality.

And they should be ashamed of it.
The 'Never Never Never' culture is designed to keep unionists living in fear...of 'encroachment by Catholics' (that is the definition of sectarian politics) when it only progressing society back to normality.
That is why I say that time and again their position is untenable and it becomes 'Never, Never, Never...oh well, maybe'.

It is little wonder that no-one on here will engage in a list of these Never Never Never stances to show who is really blocking progress in northern Ireland.

When a 'constitutional nationalist' gets hoodwinked into thinking one side is as bad as the other and has never called out the unionist side on it's own for dragging it's feet, then you can see how effective this strategy is.

From my observations, it´s both sides who like to be engaged in pulling the led of one another. I´m not saying that I disagree with you, on the contrary, your post is well put and I´m all with you. From looking at both sides as an outsider, it appears that they are both caught in a ever running circle and somehow, neither side looks capable to exit the game and end it. Hard to tell who´s driving whom but obviously, neither side will give in. That is what makes it really look silly and so backwards as well as outdated.

I agree with that the fear is more on the PUL´s side and this is some sort of their heritage, steming from the early days of the Plantation and being handed down from one generation to the next for centuries right to this very day. It clearly also indicates that this fear doesn´t come from nothing and proves that the Plantation itself was plain injustice and land robbery by the colonial power and the colonists. Seeing it from that angle, the fear has a driving force behind it which is to another part the knowledge that all this was injustice from the very start, even if they always pretend that they don´t care and that they were right in all what they have done. In fact it is in strong contrast to all those Christian beliefs they hold so high up which makes it a hypocrisy.

There is much to it in Irish history that predates the Plantation and how previous immigrants integrated into the Irish Society without causing such injustice as it started with the Plantation. Oliver Cromwell, the most cursed Englishman in Ireland, planted the Troubles when he sent the Protestants to Ireland in order to suppress and force the Irish into submission to Protestant rule over them. I think that the character of Oliver Cromwell is well known enough to spare me further writings. Just to Point at his fierceness and his radicalism from which nothing good ever came for Ireland. I say that he made things much worse and I am not only thinking at the slaughter he brought upon Ireland, I Focus on the planting of the Trouble that grew from this Plantation period and which lasts to this day. It has seen some improvements since the GFA was signed, but it is really apparent that some backlashes and fall backs are often caused by the representatives of the DUP. Some provocations from SF occured as well, but one shouldn´t forget that despite the power-sharing in NI govt, the Protestants are still a minority in NI and in our days it has more to do with the selfdetermined perception and allegiance on their side as being more British than anything else. Their perception is still like in the old days, they see themselves as the "bulwark of British rule in NI", in at least a similar way like their forebears saw themselves as the representatives and preservation force of English and later British rule in Ireland. Taking every effort to be more British than the British in GB themselves which is just another display of exaggeration in nationalism. A nationalism that only defines itself in the term British, despising the English despite the fact that this in itself bears the pure sign of contradiction. Then there are the Ulster-Scots who in distinction to the other Unionists cling on to their Scottish heritage, but nevertheless are as much loyalistic than their other brethren of English descendancy.

I was more talking about the diehard Unionists and Loyalists. There are also the more moderate and those among them who are inclined to take a more pragmatic approach to the prospect of a UI. But their numbers seem to be varying and trust towards the other community, which is essential for any progress in NI, is a very sensitive matter up there. I have had my debates with such people as well. Their "pragmatic" opinion often results in them saying that they could imagine living in a UI if SF would not rule it. As soon and as much as there is a rise in support of SF to be observed, they become restrained to the whole idea. That tells something about their fear, may it be rational or not, but it is something that sits deep down in the collective subconscious. The fear of retaliation for past injustice and murder. More or less, this is always present and it also still Plays some part in power sharing in NI.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody today can speak Ogham, the pre-Celtic language of Ireland that was replaced by the invading/migrating Celts. If you truly believe the nonsense about the invader/coloniser, then you should be rejecting both Irish and English.

The reality today is that you look at modern Irish culture and you see the predominant influence of the English language with a nod to the Irish language. The predominant Irish authors write in English and the predominant
Irish musicians sing in English (even the Wolfe Tones!!!). Yes, the Irish language has its place in modern Irish culture but it is a small place.

This was important enough to be agreed at St Andrew's, as equally important as reform of and recognition of the police force was.

The issue here is not what you think about Irish but what do you think of the DUP cherrypicking one democratically agreed clause out of an agreement and blocking it's progress. Is that RIGHT or WRONG in the opinion of a 'constitutional' anything?

Professor Moriarty

Red_Wake wrote: »

Lads, if Irish is so important to republicanism, why could neither Gerry Adams nor Martin McGuinness speak it?

Adams has relatively good Irish.

FrancieBrady

Red_Wake wrote: »

Lads, if Irish is so important to republicanism, why could neither Gerry Adams nor Martin McGuinness speak it?

It isn't that it is only important to republicanism, it is important to those who identify as Irish.

I don't speak it but I can see the absolute importance of it culturally and I agree with Friel that a nation without it's own language is only half a nation.

We, in the south are beginning to win back the language from the state with grass roots growing of it. (see Gael Scoilenna etc)
Those identifying as Irish in northern Ireland enshrined the need for parity of esteem in the GFA, and agreed the mechanics of an act at St Andrew's.

Adams seems to do his best to include the language in his public statements and learning it seemed to be impossible for McGuinness as it was for me. Doesn't lessen seeing it as important.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Polish thing is a red herring. Irish is the native langauge that predated the langauge of the invader/coloniser. If the Polish spoke Russian and were seeking a Polish Language act, in thier homeland, as recognition of the historic nature of their native langauge it would be comparable.

Nobody today can speak Ogham, the pre-Celtic language of Ireland that was replaced by the invading/migrating Celts. If you truly believe the nonsense about the invader/coloniser, then you should be rejecting both Irish and English.

The reality today is that you look at modern Irish culture and you see the predominant influence of the English language with a nod to the Irish language. The predominant Irish authors write in English and the predominant
Irish musicians sing in English (even the Wolfe Tones!!!). Yes, the Irish language has its place in modern Irish culture but it is a small place.

Red_Wake

Lads, if Irish is so important to republicanism, why could neither Gerry Adams nor Martin McGuinness speak it?

Thomas__

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

In fact, none of them would be and I suspect the OO would even refuse if some of them would convert to become a Protestant. They simply don´t like them.

To paraphrase Paisley, it is a Protestant organisation for a Protestant people.

Quite right and what I´ve read and seen about and of them is enough to deem it very unattractive for my taste.

FrancieBrady

Thomas__ wrote: »

This is the one thing you can´t get out of their heads and hearts of course. It is like some elementary credential in their mindset, collectively applying for many of the Prods. I have given up to debate about this matter with "Ulstermen" as they are too deep rooted in this mentality. When looking at the other community in NI, they might have more reasons to complain for what the minority with the siege complex has done to them, but one can see by many of the CNRs, that they are more progressive and may have overcome some injustice from the past, but that doesn´t means that they have forgotten anything at all. Just they don´t stick to this siege mentatily. That is some aspect which distinguishes those two communities.

I´ve come across various NI Posters who regret it that they couldn´t learn Irish in School cos it was never on the curriculum and everybody knows why. Needless to say that they are of Republican background. On the other Hand, I have come across various posters from the Republic of Ireland who often stated that they have no interest in Irish at all and that they had to learn it in School because it was on the curriculum but don´t use it in their daily life anyway. Some of them were even a bit hostile towards TG4 for which I never had any understanding anyway. I think that it is good that the Irish State is maintaining the teaching of Irish and thus a part of Irish culture which is at the core of the whole Islands history. But let´s be honest, people use that language they are used to it in their daily life.

I´m currently reading the book "Ireland´s Invasion of the World, The Irish diaspora in a nutshell " by Miki Garcia. An interesting reading and although there are passages one knows anyway when one is familiar with Irish history, it was really interesting to learn how many words used in the English language originate and derive from the Irish language. He listed some of them, making a couple of lines in that book.

Unionist leader after leader has at times fed that siege mentality.

And they should be ashamed of it.
The 'Never Never Never' culture is designed to keep unionists living in fear...of 'encroachment by Catholics' (that is the definition of sectarian politics) when it only progressing society back to normality.
That is why I say that time and again their position is untenable and it becomes 'Never, Never, Never...oh well, maybe'.

It is little wonder that no-one on here will engage in a list of these Never Never Never stances to show who is really blocking progress in northern Ireland.

When a 'constitutional nationalist' gets hoodwinked into thinking one side is as bad as the other and has never called out the unionist side on it's own for dragging it's feet, then you can see how effective this strategy is.

Professor Moriarty

Thomas__ wrote: »

In fact, none of them would be and I suspect the OO would even refuse if some of them would convert to become a Protestant. They simply don´t like them.

To paraphrase Paisley, it is a Protestant organisation for a Protestant people.

Thomas__

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

It´s a matter of Integration and your proposal would rather contravene such efforts. Besides, it doesn´t appear to be necessary at all cos they are doing rather well with integrating themselves into the Irish Society. As for your remark regarding membership in the OO, I take that as a joke coming from you.

It doesn't matter whether it's a joke or not. The vast majority wouldn't be allowed to join.

In fact, none of them would be and I suspect the OO would even refuse if some of them would convert to become a Protestant. They simply don´t like them.

Professor Moriarty

Thomas__ wrote: »

It´s a matter of Integration and your proposal would rather contravene such efforts. Besides, it doesn´t appear to be necessary at all cos they are doing rather well with integrating themselves into the Irish Society. As for your remark regarding membership in the OO, I take that as a joke coming from you.

It doesn't matter whether it's a joke or not. The vast majority wouldn't be allowed to join.

Thomas__

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Does that mean we have to make Polish an official language of the South?

There are more native Polish speakers in the Republic than there are native Irish speakers in the North.

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Lots of Polish children are learning Irish. In fact, some attend gaelscoileanna and play hurling and football. Perhaps they should apply to join the Orange Order?

It´s a matter of Integration and your proposal would rather contravene such efforts. Besides, it doesn´t appear to be necessary at all cos they are doing rather well with integrating themselves into the Irish Society. As for your remark regarding membership in the OO, I take that as a joke coming from you.

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language!

Nobody wishes to take that away from you or diminish it. We have had enough of the siege mentality tbh.

This is the one thing you can´t get out of their heads and hearts of course. It is like some elementary credential in their mindset, collectively applying for many of the Prods. I have given up to debate about this matter with "Ulstermen" as they are too deep rooted in this mentality. When looking at the other community in NI, they might have more reasons to complain for what the minority with the siege complex has done to them, but one can see by many of the CNRs, that they are more progressive and may have overcome some injustice from the past, but that doesn´t means that they have forgotten anything at all. Just they don´t stick to this siege mentatily. That is some aspect which distinguishes those two communities.

I´ve come across various NI Posters who regret it that they couldn´t learn Irish in School cos it was never on the curriculum and everybody knows why. Needless to say that they are of Republican background. On the other Hand, I have come across various posters from the Republic of Ireland who often stated that they have no interest in Irish at all and that they had to learn it in School because it was on the curriculum but don´t use it in their daily life anyway. Some of them were even a bit hostile towards TG4 for which I never had any understanding anyway. I think that it is good that the Irish State is maintaining the teaching of Irish and thus a part of Irish culture which is at the core of the whole Islands history. But let´s be honest, people use that language they are used to it in their daily life.

I´m currently reading the book "Ireland´s Invasion of the World, The Irish diaspora in a nutshell " by Miki Garcia. An interesting reading and although there are passages one knows anyway when one is familiar with Irish history, it was really interesting to learn how many words used in the English language originate and derive from the Irish language. He listed some of them, making a couple of lines in that book.

Thomas__

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language! Not Irish!

English is the langauge you speak, it wasn't native to Ireland until Ireland was colonised. I'm talking about the historically native language not the language of the invader/coloniser.

Quite right and it´s really curious that the English managed to suppress the Irish language as well as the Scottish Gaelic. In some other colonies, they also forced English on the natives but couldn´t succeed to root it out in their minds and the use of the language. So, many of the former colonies of the BE are bilingual, which bears some advantages.

I have little to nearly very less knowledge of the Irish language, always it is the problem to know how written words are pronounced but when I listen to it, it is clear to me, from the sound of it that this is the real native language of the Irish. That´s because what one perceives as an accent in English it´s the native one that fits Irish. It´s similar to the Scots. Very distinguished from all the accents by native English speakers in England.

Junkyard Tom

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language! Not Irish!

English is the langauge you speak, it wasn't native to Ireland until Ireland was colonised. I'm talking about the historically native language not the language of the invader/coloniser.

FrancieBrady

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language!

Nobody wishes to take that away from you or diminish it. We have had enough of the siege mentality tbh.

Irishweather

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language! Not Irish!

Junkyard Tom

The Polish thing is a red herring. Irish is the native langauge that predated the langauge of the invader/coloniser. If the Polish spoke Russian and were seeking a Polish Language act, in thier homeland, as recognition of the historic nature of their native langauge it would be comparable.

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

I am told every day about the inevitability of a lot of things that won't get through a referendum.

Indeed. Apples and oranges though.

blanch152

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

An article about an article about a man's opinion in which he himself says it won't happen. It won't happen because it would require a referendum. And because many of his countrymen thinks it's silly and unnecessary. Oh and your link is from 2007.

So some randomer has a brainfart in 2007 which he himself immediately scuppers and it's a 'campaign'?

With respect, you should read articles before you link to them for support. It wasted my time.

I am told every day about the inevitability of a lot of things that won't get through a referendum.

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/call-for-polish-to-join-irish-and-english-as-official-languages-of-state-1.973986

I take it that you will support this campaign then. By the way, with more speakers, should it have a higher status than Irish?

An article about an article about a man's opinion in which he himself says it won't happen. It won't happen because it would require a referendum. And because many of his countrymen thinks it's silly and unnecessary. Oh and your link is from 2007.

So some randomer has a brainfart in 2007 which he himself immediately scuppers and it's a 'campaign'?

With respect, you should read articles before you link to them for support. It wasted my time.

blanch152

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Lots of Polish children are learning Irish. In fact, some attend gaelscoileanna and play hurling and football. Perhaps they should apply to join the Orange Order?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/call-for-polish-to-join-irish-and-english-as-official-languages-of-state-1.973986

I take it that you will support this campaign then. By the way, with more speakers, should it have a higher status than Irish?

FrancieBrady

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Exactly. The huge fear of 'normality' can be seen as the usual huge fear of letting anything perceived as being 'sponsored by SF' come to pass. And then we have ordinary common or garden religious fundamentalism blocking decent rights for everyone.
At least Paisley was honest about it in 2007.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Never said that the selling of IRA memorabilia on the SF website was a crime.

However, it is the definition of sectarianism.

No it isn't
All sides will honour/commemorate their dead, and eulogise those who it is deemed achieced for them, tastefully and not so much so.
Arlene is still upset about the men and women if 1916 but will enthusiastically attend rituals celebrating the British army who have a controversial record on this island; no bother being seen with a loyalist paramilitary either.

If they were forcing somebody to wear or visit the website (I have never even seen these badges/t-shirts etc ) you might have a point.

But well done diverting away from the reason that the executive has collapsed...yet again.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Get back to me when honouring your dead, celebrating your past is a crime.

Never said that the selling of IRA memorabilia on the SF website was a crime.

However, it is the definition of sectarianism.