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Fine Gael MEP Brian Hayes urges grand coalition with Fine Fail

McMurphy

I'm not sure how palatable this will be to FG and FG party faithfuls, but Brian Hayes has called for a grand coalition of the two civil war party's.

In fairness, I've always been of the opinion that they're practically one and the same anyway, there's very little difference in the policies of either.

However, after witnessing them (FG) remind us at every given opportunity, how FF wrecked the place, and weren't fit to govern, watching their director of election (last time) call for them to now go into a coalition with them is fairly amusing.

MEP Brian Hayes has called for a grand coalition of Fine Gael and Fianna F in government for five years in order to hold the centre ground and a majority in the D.

In surprise remarks, the former minister said politics in Ireland had become “toxic, polarised, and extremely personalised”.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/mep-brian-hayes-urges-fine-gael-fianna-fail-grand-coalition-455478.html

I'd be all for it. I don't know what is keeping them tbh.

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For Reals

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I'm not sure how palatable this will be to FG and FG party faithfuls, but Brian Hayes has called for a grand coalition of the two civil war party's.

In fairness, I've always been of the opinion that they're practically one and the same anyway, there's very little difference in the policies of either.

However, after witnessing them (FG) remind us at every given opportunity, how FF wrecked the place, and weren't fit to govern, watching their director of election (last time) call for them to now go into a coalition with them is fairly amusing.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/mep-brian-hayes-urges-fine-gael-fianna-fail-grand-coalition-455478.html

I'd be all for it. I don't know what is keeping them tbh.

The pretense they aren't simply representing different sets of self interested peoples, over and above the needs of everyone in the country, IMO.

McMurphy

I must say, I'm surprised by the lack of thoughts on this.

I would have thought people from either gene pool would have had at least some thoughts on it.

Personally, I think it would be great for the country.

It would finally put an end to the revolving door governance we have traditionally seen here for decades, and finally end the civil war politics once and for all.

Obviously not being able to blame someone else for the countries woes would be an obstacle that they'd have to deal with, but that would be short lived.

There's also the fact someone else (prob Sinn Fein) would then have to become the main opposition party.

Neither of them want that.

But well said Mr Hayes, let's see how this idea sits with others

Tabnabs

I'd say you have to look at it from the poor politicians point of view. They have to lie, cheat and brown-nose their way to get a seat at the cabinet table and that's just with their own party colleagues, throw in another bunch and 50% are suddenly relegated to the back benches (potentially for good).

Never let it be said that politicians won't put personal gain ahead of what's best for the country...

For Reals

There's no way it would ever happen. And it's not a "political ethics" issue.
There's only room for one team of 'well wishers' at a time. Both parties would face flack behind the scenes as well as the faux moral posturing in front of the camera.

George Sunsnow

FF still farm a large proportion of the 'working class' vote
That's the roadblock
And of course Dev

For Reals

George Sunsnow wrote: »

FF still farm a large proportion of the 'working class' vote
That's the roadblock
And of course Dev

I think both parties are more dependent on floating voters than they'd like to admit.
People are wising up about Dev. Hopefully in the next generation he'll be labelled as the unpatriotic conman he was.

hatrickpatrick

Public commentary portrayed Ireland as “a kind of a hell hole of Calcutta” where nothing is achieved, but the country could not move forward unless the government enjoys a majority, he said.

Ugh. This kind of sentiment is sickening. In other democracies, the government simply comes up with policies which are good enough that they actually convince their MPs to support them, rather than forcing them to. For the first time in decades, it's possible on a regular basis for the cabinet not to get its own way 100% of the time - I for one sincerely hope this doesn't turn out to be a once-off fluke as opposed to a necessary and fundamental change in Irish politics.

For Reals

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ugh. This kind of sentiment is sickening. In other democracies, the government simply comes up with policies which are good enough that they actually convince their MPs to support them, rather than forcing them to. For the first time in decades, it's possible on a regular basis for the cabinet not to get its own way 100% of the time - I for one sincerely hope this doesn't turn out to be a once-off fluke as opposed to a necessary and fundamental change in Irish politics.

It's a game of bluffing though.
Both parties have interests to serve above the greater good. But they'll try show up the other without endangering the power hold.
We'll only see consensus on peace meal activity.
The idea of needing a majority only pertains to their pre-election manifesto. Once in some form of government all parties should be looking to improve the national lot not score points and pass blame as is the make up of both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail. We are living under the essential result of a FF/FG coalition. No great shakes happening.
Will be amusing to hear Leo shout and fuss about how bad Fianna Fail are and not being fit to govern come the next election.

George Sunsnow

For Reals wrote: »

I think both parties are more dependent on floating voters than they'd like to admit.
People are wising up about Dev. Hopefully in the next generation he'll be labelled as the unpatriotic conman he was.

Glad people are wising up to Dev
My da never liked him
Too much telling him what to grow during the emergency
That's why we always vote Fine Gael

For Reals

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Glad people are wising up to Dev
My da never liked him
Too much telling him what to grow during the emergency
That's why we always vote Fine Gael

Whatever about Dev, they've enough recent examples to warrant not supporting them. As to the option of Fine Gael or Fianna Fail, it just sends us in circles as a country.

blanch152

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In other democracies, the government simply comes up with policies which are good enough that they actually convince their MPs to support them, rather than forcing them to.

Do you have an example of a successful democracy that operates like that?

The only one I can think of that operates in such a way is the US, the country that invented the term pork-barrel politics and is one of the most divided in the world.

blanch152

For Reals wrote: »

Whatever about Dev, they've enough recent examples to warrant not supporting them. As to the option of Fine Gael or Fianna Fail, it just sends us in circles as a country.

Circles of repeated economic growth and prosperity with the occasional interruption?

For Reals

blanch152 wrote: »

Circles of repeated economic growth and prosperity with the occasional interruption?

The state having a melt down and putting the nation into generational hock is an interruption now?

Your economic growth is a part of the picture. Abject failure pretty much everywhere else counters all the billions in tax we refuse doesn't it?
Record breaking and in some cases growing numbers; of homeless, people on trolleys etc. etc. grand job.
Nice little housing bubble on the horizon for the next 'interruption'.
Be amusing to hear Leo whinge about his political bedfellows Fianna Fail.

hatrickpatrick

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you have an example of a successful democracy that operates like that?

The only one I can think of that operates in such a way is the US, the country that invented the term pork-barrel politics and is one of the most divided in the world.

The UK, FFS! Parties in the UK face backbench revolts on a regular basis and lose votes because of their own dissenting members. They only use the strictest form of whip - the three-line AKA "vote with the leadership or we'll punish you" on rare occasions, and even that doesn't necessarily carry the automatic penalty of expulsion from the party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whip_(politics)#United_Kingdom

In the sense of 'voting instructions', there are three categories of whip in British politics that are issued on particular business. An expressed instruction on how to vote could constitute a breach of parliamentary privilege, so the party's wishes are expressed unequivocally but indirectly. These whips are issued to MPs in the form of a letter outlining the parliamentary schedule, with a sentence such as "Your attendance is absolutely essential" next to each debate in which there will be a vote, underlined one, two or three times according to the severity of the whip:

A single-line whip is a guide to what the party's policy would indicate, and notification of when the vote is expected to take place; this is non-binding for attendance or voting.
A two-line whip, sometimes known as a double-line whip, is an instruction to attend and vote; partially binding for voting, attendance required unless prior permission given by the whip.
A three-line whip is a strict instruction to attend and vote, breach of which would normally have serious consequences. Permission not to attend may be given by the whip, but a serious reason is needed. Breach of a three-line whip can lead to expulsion from the parliamentary political group in extreme circumstances and may lead to expulsion from the party. Consequently, three-line whips are generally only issued on key issues, such as votes of confidence and supply. The nature of three-line whips and the potential punishments for revolt vary dramatically among parties and legislatures. Disobeying a three-line whip is a newsworthy event, indicating as it does a potential mutiny; an example was the decision on 10 July 2012 by 91 Conservative MPs to vote against Prime Minister David Cameron on the issue of reform of the House of Lords.

Emphasis mine.

In Ireland, the major parties use such a whip for EVERY SINGLE DAIL VOTE and it carries the automatic penalty of expulsion every single time. It's utterly draconian and results in the parliament not being able to carry out its primary function, which is to hold the cabinet accountable and challenge it when its policies are badly thought out or totally unpalatable to the public.

In Ireland, bizarrely, the Seanad seems to have more power to stop a cabinet sponsored bill than the Dail, through filibusters. Is that not a completely mad situation to be in? The concept of a minority government is a breath of fresh air because for five long years, FG got literally every bill it wanted passed into law, and as we saw on the abortion vote which spawned the Renua party, harshly punished any of its members who didn't comply.

This is NOT the international norm. In most democracies, such strict whips are used only for confidence issues, budgetary issues, sometimes national security issues, etc. Not on every last bill from pub licensing hours to farming regulations.

blanch152

For Reals wrote: »

The state having a melt down and putting the nation into generational hock is an interruption now?

Your economic growth is a part of the picture. Abject failure pretty much everywhere else counters all the billions in tax we refuse doesn't it?
Record breaking and in some cases growing numbers; of homeless, people on trolleys etc. etc. grand job.
Nice little housing bubble on the horizon for the next 'interruption'.
Be amusing to hear Leo whinge about his political bedfellows Fianna Fail.

Yes, the poorest country in Europe in 1930, wracked by civil war, akin to Moldova, to now one of the richest in Europe, I'll take that kind of abject failure time and again.

For Reals

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, the poorest country in Europe in 1930, wracked by civil war, akin to Moldova, to now one of the richest in Europe, I'll take that kind of abject failure time and again.

Yet you've seemingly no issue with our saviours courting our destructors? I suppose once it's one of them, sure grand.

blanch152

For Reals wrote: »

Yet you've seemingly no issue with our saviours courting our destructors? I suppose once it's one of them, sure grand.

Of course I do, I will never give FF a vote again in my lifetime.

Nice of you to notice that they both aren't the same, and there is reason enough to differentiate between them.

For Reals

blanch152 wrote: »

Of course I do, I will never give FF a vote again in my lifetime.

Nice of you to notice that they both aren't the same, and there is reason enough to differentiate between them.

They've different names and self interest groups. Defo. FG have the curious accomplishment of watching crises get worse as they 'improve' the economy. Some fancy political tap dancing there alright.

FrancieBrady

Hayes is just another who has broken the omerta (code of silence) which has developed between FF FG, that being, we are happy to pretend to be different because it allows us to swap power and, more importantly, keep power.

As their combined share of the vote continues to fall there will be more Brian's.

For Reals

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hayes is just another who has broken the omerta (code of silence) which has developed between FF FG, that being, we are happy to pretend to be different because it allows us to swap power and, more importantly, keep power.

As their combined share of the vote continues to fall there will be more Brian's.

It's been shown ethics, be they political or moral, play no role.
At this point it's mere putting on a front.
The difficulty is the merging of the two sets of crony interests. Which teams nod and wink carries the most government contract work? That's the main reason we will be unlikely to ever see a merger.

eire4

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I must say, I'm surprised by the lack of thoughts on this.

I would have thought people from either gene pool would have had at least some thoughts on it.

Personally, I think it would be great for the country.

It would finally put an end to the revolving door governance we have traditionally seen here for decades, and finally end the civil war politics once and for all.

Obviously not being able to blame someone else for the countries woes would be an obstacle that they'd have to deal with, but that would be short lived.

There's also the fact someone else (prob Sinn Fein) would then have to become the main opposition party.

Neither of them want that.

But well said Mr Hayes, let's see how this idea sits with others

Personally I tend to agree with you it would be for the best but I don't see it happening any time soon.

McMurphy

eire4 wrote: »

Personally I tend to agree with you it would be for the best but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Martin won’t rule out Fine Gael coalition It's all probably theatrical I know, but never say never.

5rtytry56

Rick Shaw wrote: »

.... It's all probably theatrical I know,

FYP.

Just listened to the fianna fail spokesperson's "trip" on news at 1.

FFS. If you've nothing constructive to say then........................

McMurphy

5rtytry56 wrote: »

FYP.

Just listened to the fianna fail spokesperson's "trip" on news at 1.

FFS. If you've nothing constructive to say then........................

Didn't hear it myself, who was the spokesperson, and what was the blathering about?

5rtytry56

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Didn't hear it myself, who was the spokesperson, and what was the blathering about?

brexit process..did'nt get name of fianna fail spokesperson

.........apparently, leo varadkar was making a mess of the situation with regard to brexit in his own capacity and the way brexit negotiations were going for Ireland were 99% fine gaels fault. [yeah right]

....sure someday the same fianna fail spokesperson may be conferred to his own honorory doctorate.......:(;)

eire4

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Martin won’t rule out Fine Gael coalition It's all probably theatrical I know, but never say never.

Would be interesting. Maybe a stepping stone on the way to a merger. Unlikely still but as you say never say never.

Loafing Oaf

eire4 wrote: »

Would be interesting. Maybe a stepping stone on the way to a merger. Unlikely still but as you say never say never.

There seems to be a general acceptance that if FF is the largest party after the next GE, FG will reciprocate the current arrangement, and probably, if true to form, work it a lit more constructively than FF are currently doing.

It's if FG comes out on top again, though, that things get interesting. Would FF meekly embrace a renewal of the 'confidence and supply' deal? But would going into coalition with FF as a junior partner be any more appealing?

If, then, FF refuse any sort of deal with FG, the only option on current numbers is for either of those parties to deal with SF. I think we can rule out FG/SF, given the vast gulf between the two, but FF/SF doesn't seem any more feasible as things stand. Martin is seemingly ruling out coalition with Sf but leaving the door open to a C&S arrangement with them. However, Mary Lou has apparently ruled this out.

So it's hard to see how we would get a government in those circumstances. Perhaps Martin swallows his pride and accepts that Brian Hayes's grand coalition is the least bad of a range of unpalatable options?

FrancieBrady

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

There seems to be a general acceptance that if FF is the largest party after the next GE, FG will reciprocate the current arrangement, and probably, if true to form, work it a lit more constructively than FF are currently doing.

It's if FG comes out on top again, though, that things get interesting. Would FF meekly embrace a renewal of the 'confidence and supply' deal? But would going into coalition with FF as a junior partner be any more appealing?

If, then, FF refuse any sort of deal with FG, the only option on current numbers is for either of those parties to deal with SF. I think we can rule out FG/SF, given the vast gulf between the two, but FF/SF doesn't seem any more feasible as things stand. Martin is seemingly ruling out coalition with Sf but leaving the door open to a C&S arrangement with them. However, Mary Lou has apparently ruled this out.

So it's hard to see how we would get a government in those circumstances. Perhaps Martin swallows his pride and accepts that Brian Hayes's grand coalition is the least bad of a range of unpalatable options?

Would Martin survive if FG come out on top. FF strikes me as a riven party ATM.

Loafing Oaf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Would Martin survive if FG come out on top. FF strikes me as a riven party ATM.

I think the way these things work that he would be given the opportunity to propose a course of action vis-a-vis government formation, and if the party rejected that course, via a special ard fheis or whatever the mechanism is, then he would be forced out.

FrancieBrady

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I think the way these things work that he would be given the opportunity to propose a course of action vis-a-vis government formation, and if the party rejected that course, via a special ard fheis or whatever the mechanism is, then he would be forced out.

FF won't stay intact for another C&S government. SF are sitting pretty to get a proper coalition. There have been overtures from others.
If they get the - a proper coalition, I think it will be a game changer in Irish politics.
Will they hold out for that? Maybe with Adams at the helm, wouldn't be so sure of the younger members.