Stormont power sharing talks

blanch152 wrote: »

In the same way that you see nothing wrong with selling Belfast Brigade badges on the Sinn Fein website, there are Unionists who see nothing wrong with burning Irish flags.

The fact that both are offensive is obvious to the outsider.

Get back to me when honouring your dead, celebrating your past is a crime.
Would you be similarly against the Para's or British army selling memorabilia?

As I said earlier I would be in favour of a ban on this kind of memorialising, but all sides in the conflict do it.

Burning flags in a provocative way, targeting people of colour, just because of their colour or because of their religion is wrong and in some cases against the law.

What do you mean by "democratic rights"? It is a mere sound-bite.

"Democratic rights" could mean the 8th Amendment or the Single Transferable Vote.

Democratically agreed rights are just a 'sound bite' to a 'constitutional nationalist' now?

A language act was agreed at St Andrew's, where is the constitutional nationalists condemnation of those who are blocking that?

*If SF cherrypicked and said they where not going to support the Police down the road from the Agreement, I fear our 'constitutional nationalist' would be having a fit about that.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have been over this before, SF, and their supporters, simply do not see those who fought in the IRA as 'terrorists'.
Maggie Thatcher and people such as yourself can bandy that useless selective word about until the cows come home, but the reality is that is the way it is.

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the badge just as nobody is forced to buy a poppy.

In the same way that you see nothing wrong with selling Belfast Brigade badges on the Sinn Fein website, there are Unionists who see nothing wrong with burning Irish flags.

The fact that both are offensive is obvious to the outsider.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you are a 'constitutional nationalist' where is you support for an already agreed deal on a language act and your condemnation of those who have brought down the executive by constantly blocking democratic rights available to every other citizen on these islands?

What do you mean by "democratic rights"? It is a mere sound-bite.

"Democratic rights" could mean the 8th Amendment or the Single Transferable Vote.

blanch152 wrote: »

Unfortunately, despite the best efforts to paint many people on here as defenders of the DUP, that ignores the nuances of the views held by those perceived as being anti-nationalist (For myself, I am a constitutional nationalist that supports the aspiration of a united Ireland but not without significant buy-in from the unionist community).

I think there are a few things that I hope we all can agree on:

Nobody has defended the DUP position on same-sex marriage. Nobody has defended the burning of effigies and flags.

However, it would be true to say that there are some who continue to defend everything nationalist, no matter how bigoted, no matter how wrong. For example, there are people who see nothing wrong with Sinn Fein selling terrorist propaganda material on their website.

We have been over this before, SF, and their supporters, simply do not see those who fought in the IRA as 'terrorists'.
Maggie Thatcher and people such as yourself can bandy that useless selective word about until the cows come home, but the reality is that is the way it is.

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the badge just as nobody is forced to buy a poppy.

If you are a 'constitutional nationalist' where is you support for an already agreed deal on a language act and your condemnation of those who have brought down the executive by constantly blocking democratic rights available to every other citizen on these islands?

blanch152 wrote: »

Does that mean we have to make Polish an official language of the South?

There are more native Polish speakers in the Republic than there are native Irish speakers in the North.

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Lots of Polish children are learning Irish. In fact, some attend gaelscoileanna and play hurling and football. Perhaps they should apply to join the Orange Order?

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The EU confirmed Irish as an official language of the EU with all that goes with that designation. Therefore they have very different statuses. So you cannot make the same argument.

Does that mean we have to make Polish an official language of the South?

There are more native Polish speakers in the Republic than there are native Irish speakers in the North.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never never never call out the blatant bigoted anti Irishness of the DUP on it's own. It is always the fault of the Irish or at best - when you cannot deny, or dilute the blatant bigotry of the DUP - both sides at fault.

Unfortunately, despite the best efforts to paint many people on here as defenders of the DUP, that ignores the nuances of the views held by those perceived as being anti-nationalist (For myself, I am a constitutional nationalist that supports the aspiration of a united Ireland but not without significant buy-in from the unionist community).

I think there are a few things that I hope we all can agree on:

Nobody has defended the DUP position on same-sex marriage. Nobody has defended the burning of effigies and flags.

However, it would be true to say that there are some who continue to defend everything nationalist, no matter how bigoted, no matter how wrong. For example, there are people who see nothing wrong with Sinn Fein selling terrorist propaganda material on their website.

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, nobody ever said that, so I don't know what argument you are refuting.

The important European language has already been revived in places where it never died out. It died out in Northern Ireland. As already demonstrated through links, Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

P.S. The exact same arguments that you use could be made by those promoting Ulster Scots

Nope. It's a dialect, not a language. You might as well be trying to promote the Yorkshire dialect.

The EU confirmed Irish as an official language of the EU with all that goes with that designation. Therefore they have very different statuses. So you cannot make the same argument.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. It's actually depressing to see someone argue that the revival of an important European language is interpreted as the other side winning.

Perhaps all nationalists should go over to the other side, relinquish their identity and embrace PUL culture fully. Yes, that's what they should do in the interests of harmony and unity. Right, all nationalists should immediately apply to join the Orange Order. Oh wait...

Again, nobody ever said that, so I don't know what argument you are refuting.

The important European language has already been revived in places where it never died out. It died out in Northern Ireland. As already demonstrated through links, Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.

P.S. The exact same arguments that you use could be made by those promoting Ulster Scots

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never never never call out the blatant bigoted anti Irishness of the DUP on it's own. It is always the fault of the Irish or at best - when you cannot deny, or dilute the blatant bigotry of the DUP - both sides at fault.

The times they are a-changin...

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. It's actually depressing to see someone argue that the revival of an important European language is interpreted as the other side winning.

Perhaps all nationalists should go over to the other side, relinquish their identity and embrace PUL culture fully. Yes, that's what they should do in the interests of harmony and unity. Right, all nationalists should immediately apply to join the Orange Order. Oh wait...

Never never never call out the blatant bigoted anti Irishness of the DUP on it's own. It is always the fault of the Irish or at best - when you cannot deny, or dilute the blatant bigotry of the DUP - both sides at fault.

blanch152 wrote: »

That seems more than a little over the top given the figures we have seen quoted for the number of Irish speakers. Once again, when it comes to Northern Ireland, it is more about one of the sides winning against the other than a genuine attempt to deal with the issue, in this case, to promote the language.

Yeah. It's actually depressing to see someone argue that the revival of an important European language is interpreted as the other side winning.

Perhaps all nationalists should go over to the other side, relinquish their identity and embrace PUL culture fully. Yes, that's what they should do in the interests of harmony and unity. Right, all nationalists should immediately apply to join the Orange Order. Oh wait...

blanch152 wrote: »

That seems more than a little over the top given the figures we have seen quoted for the number of Irish speakers. Once again, when it comes to Northern Ireland, it is more about one of the sides winning against the other than a genuine attempt to deal with the issue, in this case, to promote the language.

Those who are Irish wish to develop the language.
It isn't about 'winning'. You cannot force people to use Irish, that is just inanely silly. You can encourage and promote it though.

Irishweather wrote: »

10% employment? Irish Road signs? Irish Courts?

No thanks!

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no coercion there, you do not have to have Irish to function.

Why, no thanks?

That seems more than a little over the top given the figures we have seen quoted for the number of Irish speakers. Once again, when it comes to Northern Ireland, it is more about one of the sides winning against the other than a genuine attempt to deal with the issue, in this case, to promote the language.

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language

Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.

Irishweather wrote: »

10% employment? Irish Road signs? Irish Courts?

No thanks!

There is no coercion there, you do not have to have Irish to function.

Why, no thanks?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Google their (SDLP/SF) proposals. Broadly similar.

10% employment? Irish Road signs? Irish Courts?

No thanks!

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no agreement with the DUP on an Irish Languages Act.

There is no agreement on the GFA with the DUP either. But they have been happy on the comfy seats implementing parts of it.
Time has run out on that comfy situation for them. One side made a leap of faith and the other made no leap and have dragged their heels since (wanna do the list?)

The crossroads has been reached.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They need to sit down trash out what an act would look like.

The need for an act to protect the native language in line with Scotland and Wales has been agreed.
The DUP petulance has to end.

There is no agreement with the DUP on an Irish Languages Act.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The DUP petulance has to end.

Irishweather wrote: »

What does that entail?

More stick and less carrot. The British and Irish governments should act in unison as co-guarantors of the GFA.

Irishweather wrote: »

What does that entail?

Google their (SDLP/SF) proposals. Broadly similar.

What does that entail?

Irishweather wrote: »

Shouldn't be given equal rights as English speakers though.

They need to sit down trash out what an act would look like.

The need for an act to protect the native language in line with Scotland and Wales has been agreed.
The DUP petulance has to end.

Shouldn't be given equal rights as English speakers though.

The debate shouldn't be about individual views on the Irish language, it should be about the requirements of those who identify as Irish being given rights that have already been agreed as part of an international agreement.
There has been two massive votes on the strategy of SF here and a massive amount of the electorate support them.
The question is, what are the two responsible governments going to do to ensure that the GFA Is progressed.

Irishweather wrote: »

Um, i'm not certain if that is the case as the census only seems to include towns, i'm only pointing out that alot of areas do have more planters than Irish, hence the prevalence of the Irish language is probably limited at least here.

http://www.billmacafee.com/sperrins/backgroundpapers/popntyrone1600-1991.pdf

Your link is otherwise quite interesting but is (self-admittedly) very unclear as to actual percentages in Tyrone in the 1600s (the link makes no reference whatsoever regarding populations in Derry).

Um, i'm not certain if that is the case as the census only seems to include towns, i'm only pointing out that alot of areas do have more planters than Irish, hence the prevalence of the Irish language is probably limited at least here.

http://www.billmacafee.com/sperrins/backgroundpapers/popntyrone1600-1991.pdf

Irishweather wrote: »

County Londonderry/Derry. As we are talking about Northern Ireland and the Irish language here, I would've thought that was fairly self explanatory.

Ok. So you are saying that the population of Co. Derry contained more Planters than native Irish in the 1600s?

County Londonderry/Derry. As we are talking about Northern Ireland and the Irish language here, I would've thought that was fairly self explanatory.

Irishweather wrote: »

What? I was specifically discussing my area.

I can look up Northern Ireland for you, I don't expect to find anything compressive.My county has quite good census records so the other counties probably won't be as fruitful.

Well, 'your area' could mean a parish or the whole island. NI didn't exist in the 1600s.

What? I was specifically discussing my area.

I can look up Northern Ireland for you, I don't expect to find anything compressive.My county has quite good census records so the other counties probably won't be as fruitful.