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Chuchote

Why don't schools have competitive cycling? They play hurling and hockey and football and basketball competitively, but why not cycling?

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Harrybelafonte

LennoxR wrote: »

I don't get the hostility.

I don't get where you're getting the hostility.

You referred to grass track racing, that's a fixed gear event. My reference to Eoin may have been off, as the community games seem to call it "cycling on grass" and as you say allow road bikes. It's a different event then, but as you say, a pitch somewhere could be used for it.

LennoxR

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Grass track racing is still fixed gear and is still alive as it is how Eoin Mullen got into track racing. So children having their own bikes is unlikely.

I don't see why it would have to be fixed gear to be honest. There's a some form of on-grass racing at the community games where the kids just bring their own bikes.

But anyway it was just a suggestion. I don't get the hostility.

ILIKEFOOD

dragratchet wrote: »

i met a group from black-rock college out on the road one day.. big gang with a teacher leading. weren't involved in racing per say but getting k's in ahead of a cycling trip to France i think.

that's the willow wheelers, started in 1989.

although I went to the school my parents couldn't afford a bike for me, so the glaring answer to this question IMO is the sheer cost involved in getting kitted out to join a school club. Even the wheelers were seen as off-curriculum. So the option was there, but it wasn't like togging out to play a game of rugby on a Wednesday (mandatory!)

Harrybelafonte

LennoxR wrote: »

I've always thought that if schools were to encourage competitive cycling the way to do it would be to revive the old grass track racing that we used to have back in mid 20th century.

Short, fast, competitive and relatively risk free. Could be hosted on a playing pitch. Kids could bring their own bikes, you could easily have a school league or something in the summer term. Doubtless it's more complicated in reality, but I've always wondered about this possibility.

Grass track racing is still fixed gear and is still alive as it is how Eoin Mullen got into track racing. So children having their own bikes is unlikely.

How many pages in are we at this stage and the answer has already been proffered. There are opportunities to race on bicycles for children in a safe environment. Schools can avail of these opportunities, or not, and usually for valid reasons.

As experience in these situations seems to missing form most posts, particularly the OP, let me point out that I approached my son's secondary school to suggest attending a session/booking a session in Sundrive. Despite a positive reaction and knowing that the school is very active in encouraging sports, this idea went no further.

Reasons involved other parents' unwillingness to give permission due to levels of danger. Children are rarely knocked unconscious or break collarbones at GAA games or soccer games. That's the world most of these people live in, so what we regard as relatively safe may not seem to others.

On top of that, the same school was approached regarding establishing a basketball team. Also didn't work, simply because the kids prefer to play GAA or soccer. Both girls and boys.

Time and financial costs are not worth the investment to propose a possibly short-lived new sport when the stalwarts can be relied upon with as little fuss as possible.

And, on top of all that, kids are fickle. They don't always stick with sports, especially if it's not a sport their friends play. My own has been accredited at Sundrive since he was maybe 8 or 9. That's over 5 years ago I think now. He has consistently come down and supported me or helped and volunteered at events, but has no interest in competing. Additionally, he has now given up basketball after playing for almost 8 years.

Kids change and they move on to different things, not all of them obviously, but from a school's perspective it makes investing substantial time and finances less attractive, especially if the majority of the parents understand little about the sport and prefer to support the staples.

As with many of the current posts on this forum that seem to be some kind of intellectual "what if" exercises, if you really feel something needs to change, go out and get involved and change it. Otherwise it's just self-gratification.

Chuchote

Not to mention bicycle polo, invented by RJ Mecredy of this parish in the 1890s.

LennoxR

I've always thought that if schools were to encourage competitive cycling the way to do it would be to revive the old grass track racing that we used to have back in mid 20th century.

Short, fast, competitive and relatively risk free. Could be hosted on a playing pitch. Kids could bring their own bikes, you could easily have a school league or something in the summer term. Doubtless it's more complicated in reality, but I've always wondered about this possibility.

Harrybelafonte

Finnrocco wrote: »

I always thought an indoor velodrome would be the answer to raising participation levels, but I guess there's no guarantee that it would be.

Anyone dedicated to track cycling will do it with the facilities as they stand. Sundrive is a "proper velodrome" despite what posters on here or Sticky Bottle think. There are multiple velodromes similar to it all around the world which dedicated track cyclists understand as the norm and just get on with it.

If cyclists who keep screaming for this velodrome (FB is fking full of them) to be built as some kind golden child answer to the lack of interest in track cycling can't be bothered to come to Sundrive to spectate or train in the glorious summer sun, or show any form of support whatsoever then why would they come to train and race in the dry air and heat of an indoor?

There's a track comission that has consisted of a rotation of perhaps six dedicated members over the last 10 years. The volunteers for big races or marshalls for races (bar CI Comms) are made up of people who race or train at the track (or their families). It's the same people day in day out just getting on with it. And I guarantee it's laborious, sometimes thankless (though trackies are definitely friendlier and more appreciative than roadies). To come on to this forum and other outlets for "cyclist opinions" and once again find multiple posters complaining about the lack of a "proper" velodrome who frankly have no understanding of what that involves and have never set foot in Sundrive to support events, I think is insulting to the people who dedicate so much time to the sport.

Harrybelafonte

Beasty wrote: »

Might not be guaranteed but the uptake in Manchester was not only massive but resulted in some if the best cyclists in the World (Jason Kenny being a recent example but it goes back to the Sydney Olympics and would also include the likes of Cav and Geraint Thomas from the current peleton)

The Olympics part of your comment is the most important part. They work in tandem. The numbers who show up for accreditation in Sundrive and return are quite low. Personally, I think we need to face up to the fact that the indoor will receive limited usage and concentrate on building a number of outdoor velodromes around the country. Proper velodromes under the one authority.

Beasty

Finnrocco wrote: »

I always thought an indoor velodrome would be the answer to raising participation levels, but I guess there's no guarantee that it would be.

Might not be guaranteed but the uptake in Manchester was not only massive but resulted in some if the best cyclists in the World (Jason Kenny being a recent example but it goes back to the Sydney Olympics and would also include the likes of Cav and Geraint Thomas from the current peleton)

Finnrocco

There was / is a taster programme between Sundrive Velo and local schools to bring students out and give them a few hours introduction to track racing.

From talking to the lads who do it, it seems that most who do it seem to like it, but very few come back and take up the sport.

I've often thought of trying to get kids where I live out, but the potential issues of insurance, safety etc come up.

Even my own kids cycle a lot but just aren't bothered doing it competitively or as part of a club.

I always thought an indoor velodrome would be the answer to raising participation levels, but I guess there's no guarantee that it would be.

Beasty

TBH the way to encourage more kids to cycle under the auspices of CI is via the clubs.

I try and lead regular youth spins with my own club, but I suspect there are not many, if any, other clubs northside that do the same. I do know Orwell heavily invest time and effort with youths. In addition Ratoath BMX is a great facility for kids (and offers them racing) - likewise Sundrive. Both BMX and track offer safe environments away from motorised traffic and as I've already mentioned Orwell regularly put on youth sessions at Corkagh Park

Having said that I am slightly disappointed with the uptake at my own club. Youth membership is free and CI membership (including a racing licence) is only a tenner for u14s. I encourage my own 2 kids in that age category, and I know many other club members have kids of similar ages, but unfortunately only a handful get involved in any formal road spins (I know some do BMX) - that's as much down to parents not encouraging them a bit more (and again my own club will invest in appropriate bikes if the need arises - we maintain a youth fund precisely for that kind of thing)

EAD

For the last two years I have led cycling training after school for senior students (4th, 5th and 6th year) aiming to do one leg of the Cycle Against Suicide. I also coach Gaelic football, oh and teach!
The logistics and level of responsibility involved in training the students for a one-off event on open roads is incompatible with a year's worth of football.
Firstly, 8 teachers had to be trained up (in their own time) to help lead the spins. Due to the nature of our location we also needed a lead car to warn drivers of our presence and a support car to safely remove students from the road where machanicals/injury occurred.
As lead teacher the students' safety ultimately lay with me; this was quite a burden of responsibility. When my students play football they may take a hard knock but this pales into insignificance when compared to how wrong things can go on the road with 25/30 students and irresponsible/irrational drivers.
To take students to the event involved 6 teachers being freed up from teaching (very difficult), the hiring of a bus (simple enough) and the sourcing of transport for the bikes (very difficult).
As an avid cyclist and teacher I would love to see cycling become a part of school life but logistically it's unlikely to happen.

magicbastarder

i cycled to secondary school late 80s/early 90s - several dozen people cycled in. i'd guess maybe 40? in a school of 550 pupils.

worth noting also that the year ahead of me was the first year where this was an option, would be curious to see what it's like now though.

Beasty

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I went to a large primary school (1970's) and a large secondary school (early 1980's) and can't recall a single pupil cycling to either schools. I think I would have been afraid to leave my bikes locked up and unattended at school when I was a youngster.

I currently live across the street from a well known mixed secondary school and I see lots of pupils cycling through the gates each day (albeit almost all male).

I certainly used to cycle to school in the mid to late 70s. The bike shed was very popular (for bikes as well as other things....)

Wishbone Ash

Chuchote wrote: »

Wait till the girls discover cycling fashion...

There are so many distracting school girl errors with that pic - non-drive side, misaligned skewer ends, tyre logo's not over valves, spoke reflectors, pie plate etc.....

Chuchote

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I went to a large primary school (1970's) and a large secondary school (early 1980's) and can't recall a single pupil cycling to either schools. I think I would have been afraid to leave my bikes locked up and unattended at school when I was a youngster.

I currently live across the street from a well known mixed secondary school and I see lots of pupils cycling through the gates each day (albeit almost all male).

Wait till the girls discover cycling fashion

Wishbone Ash

Thud wrote: »

how many/what percentage of kids cycle to school lately?
It was well over 50% when I was in primary school down the country years ago but suspect it is much less nowadays....

I went to a large primary school (1970's) and a large secondary school (early 1980's) and can't recall a single pupil cycling to either schools. I think I would have been afraid to leave my bikes locked up and unattended at school when I was a youngster.

I currently live across the street from a well known mixed secondary school and I see lots of pupils cycling through the gates each day (albeit almost all male).

dragratchet

i met a group from black-rock college out on the road one day.. big gang with a teacher leading. weren't involved in racing per say but getting k's in ahead of a cycling trip to France i think.

Miklos

There was a touring club in my old school that was run after school on a Wednesday, I wish I had paid more attention to it back then but I know that myself and some other guys have subsequently got into competitive cycling.

It was run by a couple of enthusiasts and all very inclusive and wholesome, to be honest I think that's probably the best way to introduce kids to getting out on their bikes and the wider world of cycling. If the kids are interested enough they'll find their own way into competition.

JK.BMC

Chuchote wrote: »

Why don't schools have competitive cycling? They play hurling and hockey and football and basketball competitively, but why not cycling?

So - back to the original question. I must put my hand up and say I'm both a competitive cyclist and a teacher. What strikes me about this particular thread and the perspective of the OP is typical of discussion around schools/teaching/education generally in Ireland. it appears to me that Chuchote knows little of how schools operate on a daily basis and in particular how extra-curricular sport is managed. But I suppose thats why the question is asked so fair enough.
The phrase "teachers/schools have enough to be doing" is without doubt true. Our fundamental task is to teach in classrooms. (It's actually sickening when the "three months holidays blah blah" brigade get involved in such discussion but we will leave that aside for the moment.)
But the unfolding of the discussion then involves criticising the teachers/gubbermint/national organisation or debating about how money should be spent etc etc etc. Same thing here so no surprize in that.

If it really was as simple as "sure, go on there boys and girls with Mr/Mrs Smith and do 10 laps of the green shed circuit and finish with a sprint and be back for lunch" then lots of schools would be doing it. But that isn't happening and actually I would have my doubts about the suitability of schools and teachers organising road races in this day and age. Clubs already do this - we don't exactly have hundreds and thousands chomping at the bit to race as it is - and then expecting teachers/schools to double up on this? Where is this supposed to go long term?

Even going to Sundrive, or any "new" velodrome, involves considerable investment of time/resources which I can absolutely guarantee you, are stretched fairly thinly as it is. And remember, every single school in Ireland has an extra-curricular programme, almost all on a volunteer basis, sometimes involving parents and other development officers/volunteers in order to keep these kids active, involved, competitive and healthy. This stuff happens everyday, in every school, in every county, almost all of it voluntary, like all school sports. Comparing cycling by the way with rugby (I coach a bit) GAA soccer etc is a false comparison for a whole pile of reasons which I won't elaborate upon.

What SHOULD happen, and actually does at a small enough level, is for competent adults to work with school kids on things like cycle skills and road safety. I have a colleague who does this kind of work but to my knowledge it is not funded by CI but through the RSA.

I would suggest to Chuchote, if this is not already the case, to apply for a week or two of substitute teaching/supervising in a bustling secondary school next September. Work out how exactly you would implement cycle racing into the school curriculum. Best of luck with that.

magicbastarder

Chuchote wrote: »

Why would a school sport require the public to volunteer their time?

to quote Beasty, 'All of this relies heavily on volunteers' - what school has facilities to allow cycle racing within the grounds? what school is going to be willing to pay the insurance to allow cycle racing within the grounds?
once you leave the school grounds, the demands become more onerous.

Chuchote

Why would a school sport require the public to volunteer their time?

Beasty

Chuchote wrote: »

Sooo… the cyclists on this forum, going on the replies so far, would generally be hostile to the idea of cycling as a school sport?

I am not seeing hostility, simply posters highlighting some of the likely issues

As a matter of interest, would you volunteer your time to do something like this? Are you a member of CI? Do you understand the resource issues it faces?

They do already have the Sprocket Rocket programme. Some clubs (my own included) actively encourage youth cycling. Orwell Wheelers put on weekly races at Corkagh Park throughout the summer

All of this relies heavily on volunteers and we need more cyclists prepared to devote more time to progress such a proposal

ted1

Chuchote wrote: »

Why don't schools have competitive cycling? They play hurling and hockey and football and basketball competitively, but why not cycling?

Each of those sports are on closed pitches, fields etc and don't require specialist equipment fairly obvious

kenmc

Not directly "in school", but still recognized for the achievement that it is: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1971044596254759&substory_index=0&id=195689253790311

magicbastarder

kinda prompted by the thread on CI and where money goes, i was just trying to figure out how much it would cost to have a cycling class for every primary school pupil, say in 5th class.
from the stats i can find, there are approx 65,000 or 70,000 pupils in an average 5th class across the country. if they had a single one hour class in that year, 30 pupils in a class, that's 2,200 hours required, so that's probably a full time job for about half a dozen people to allow for overheads. not a huge amount of money in the grand scheme of things, but a significant budgetary hit for any NGO operating with multiple drains on income.

Harrybelafonte

Weepsie wrote: »

Yes, but an indoor Velodrome that could do it 365 days a year, morning to night and whatever the weather would do it a whole lot better. Not knocking Sundrive. A great facility.

I realise that, but there's a strange attitude amongst the cycling community and on this forum that suddenly things will be awesome when "we" get a velodrome, meanwhile "we'll" just sit and wait. There's already a velodrome in Sundrive that hosts an international level event each year, has had world champions race at it almost each year since it started and no-one attends it. I realise I keep saying this, but if "you" want a velodrome so badly, go and show that there's more than the usual 20 people who set up each event at Sundrive and marshall it and race at it etc, it might be more convincing that a few posts on boards.

I fully realise this was not your point Weepsie, I'm simply using hte point you made to make this statement again. It is linked to the debate on this thread on the basis that OP seems to have little understanding of the steps already involved to encourage children to race and the work that is ongoing in the background.

Harrybelafonte

Weepsie wrote: »

I obviously would note exception for helping to develop young elite cyclists and getting the Velodrome built.

The velodrome which already exists in Sundrive already does this.

Harrybelafonte

I'll be the negative one here then. You seem to have asked a question without doing any real research into it.

What do you know about competitive cycling in Ireland?
Do you belong to a club?
Do you have kids?
Have you asked a school?
Why does competitive cycling for children have to involve schools when multiple clubs exist around Ireland?
Any idea of insurance costs?
Have you yourself made any efforts to start something similar?
Have you attended any road or track races in Ireland and observed the numbers of children involved there?
Have you contacted CI and asked what they do to encourage children to race?
Have you contacted clubs to ask what they do to encourage children racing?

Is it cos it's Friday or something?

joey100

I'm not trying to be negative here, I'm just giving my experience but unfortunately that wouldn't work Thud. If young people brought their own bikes and their was damage done to them the school would be liable for fixing this.

I've tried hard to get young people interested in cycling and involved for a few years now in my work. It's hard, it's a lot of work and honestly for the amount who do take it up my time and effort is better placed. Their are just too many obstacles in place to really give it a go. I have ran bike building programmes with bike shops that were really good and the young people enjoyed but once it was over they moved onto something else.

In my opinion this should be targeted by Cycling Ireland. I've working with development officers from Diving Ireland, fencing Ireland, Swim Ireland, Leinster Cricket, amateur boxing association, triathlon Ireland. This takes the pressure off the school to be the expert and gives the young people a good taste of the sport so they can decide themselves if they want to look into it more. I contacted cycling Ireland but was only given info about sprocket rockets.