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2017 UK General Election - 8th June

devnull

As discussed in the Brexit thread, probably best for a new thread on this.

It looks like it will be held on June 8th providing Parliament votes for it on Wednesday, which seems to be almost certain and can't personally see it being anything other than an increased majority for the Tory party.

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Enzokk

I also cannot see how the 13 seats that the Scottish Conservatives hold can agree with a deal with the DUP? Ruth Davidson is in such a difficult position in that if she agrees to the deal that her English colleagues will demand she will be seen as going against her morals. Does she agree with the agreement whatever shape it will take? Will she sell out for power? How will this play out in the next election for her?

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Regardless of what SF do.

The British are mandated to be neutral in an international agreement with Ireland.

And those who take their seats at Westminister are mandated to participate in government. If SF wanted the GFA to specify that this should be removed, well they should have thought of it when that Agreement was made. If not, they should look to their own negotiators and say "lads...ye forgot that".

Jamiekelly

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They run candidates in the 26 counties on the basis that, if they get into power, that legislature will advocate for a United Ireland. Clearly they don't see one legislature has to remain neutral, but demands it of the other. It's arcane reasoning, and illogical.

And as elected representatives it's their job to advocate for what they claim to represent. You're comparing apples and oranges because SF "north" must abide by a different set of rules to SF "south".

If FF were to need SF votes here to form a government and then promised to put pressure on the UK government on behalf of SF to have a border poll then the UK parties would have more than enough reason to complain and call into question the legitimacy of the GFA.

SF and the DUP signed the GFA and are the main beneficiaries of it but it was the UK and ROI governments that are tasked with guaranteeing it's existence regardless of current partisan politics.

Kind of hard to have a peace agreement that has to be reviewed everytime a close election occurs, whether in the UK or ROI.

Persephone kindness

We can speak our minds. Politicians cannot. We can spit fiery words. It's meaningless for us. It isn't for a Tsaoiseach. He will need to give himself room to maneuver. He will need to be diplomatic. He has been already.

https://www.rte.ie/news/uk-election-2017/2017/0609/881417-uk-election-irish-reaction/

I totally expected this and understand it.

And I dislike the DUP as much as anyone. But he can't spit acid back.

FrancieBrady

Enzokk wrote: »

I also cannot see how the 13 seats that the Scottish Conservatives hold can agree with a deal with the DUP? Ruth Davidson is in such a difficult position in that if she agrees to the deal that her English colleagues will demand she will be seen as going against her morals. Does she agree with the agreement whatever shape it will take? Will she sell out for power? How will this play out in the next election for her?

Well she may be somebody the DUP believe to be a sinner and disgusting. But Davidson is a Tory after all.
Tory selfishness may win the day if power is dangled. She did tweet an Amnesty lecture she gave last year, so that may have been a shot across May's bows.

Persephone kindness

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Didn't take long for the stock FG reaction. :rolleyes:

They don't have to be aggressive, they need to be strong and say this is not a runner under the agreement.

I am not FG ..not at all. Any PM would have to do the same.

Martin FF is giving out to SF right now for practicing abstention in westminster..for the love of god ...could they not practice abstention here? And could the DUP not join them?

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

And those who take their seats at Westminister are mandated to participate in government. If SF wanted the GFA to specify that this should be removed, well they should have thought of it when that Agreement was made. If not, they should look to their own negotiators and say "lads...ye forgot that".

It's part of the agreement. Each government has to be a neutral player.
There is nothing to 'remove'.
They have to abide by what is there.

Persephone kindness

Right lads I will be voting Mick wallace from here on in ...he has hair and I trust NO ONE!

Arthur Daley

Enzokk wrote: »

I am more worried that Theresa May has already indicated that she has the votes to form a government with the DUP, yet they haven't had negotiations yet on what the deal will be like. That is dangerous from Theresa May. What if the DUP asks for support that goes against the agreements that forged the peace in NI? Has she actually thought this through? She really is one of the worst politicians out there and arguably will go down as the worst PM ever. The damage she has done is staggering and there is still so much more damage that she can do.

Britain is not in a good place these days pure and simple. This vote is the beginning of them starting to face up to that I think. When you stand back and think of it this result was fairly clear and obvious. The idea that a tory party in dissaray just last summer producing a landslide now was just hyperbole. This was the tory party that was almost about to select Andrea Leadsome as PM for God's sake.

solodeogloria

mugsymugsy wrote: »

Not taking your post out context but highlighting this part and I would fully agree but with the first past the post system in the UK it doesn't lend itself to be able to vote who you want to in some cases.

You have to sometimes tactically vote the lesser of two evils as in would you prefer a nationalist or unionist party and then you jump on the bandwagon of whoever is biggest in your area to not split the vote.

If they changed the system to STV or AV then it could allow for alliance / greens / ukip (not a fan but their voice should be heard) to all have a small say rather than currently what happens.

Good morning,

I'd never vote for Sinn Féin in any case. It's a vote for someone who isn't willing to go to Westminster and do the work.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

FrancieBrady

I can just imagine the furore and gnashing of teeth (on this forum alone) if it was Corbyn who was trying to convince SF to prop him up in a cling to power.

[Deleted User]

Enzokk wrote: »

I also cannot see how the 13 seats that the Scottish Conservatives hold can agree with a deal with the DUP? Ruth Davidson is in such a difficult position in that if she agrees to the deal that her English colleagues will demand she will be seen as going against her morals. Does she agree with the agreement whatever shape it will take? Will she sell out for power? How will this play out in the next election for her?

Are the Scottish "conservatives" a separate party or are they the same party . i.e "The Conservative and Unionist Party" ?

If it's the latter then no agreement is required, they are just taking the party whip like any other MP.

Enzokk

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well she may be somebody the DUP believe to be a sinner and disgusting. But Davidson is a Tory after all.
Tory selfishness may win the day if power is dangled. She did tweet an Amnesty lecture she gave last year, so that may have been a shot across May's bows.

I think people are getting tired of politicians who, as Theresa May did, just flutters in the wind as it suits them. For Ruth Davidson she is finally under the microscope as the SNP has been since their remarkable performance in 2015. It is easy to look strong and look the part when you are not being asked tough questions. Her first tough question has arrived, and ironically it isn't anything even to do with her seat in the Scottish Parliament. But she is the leader of the Scottish Conservatives and if she isn't careful she will be seen as just another Tory.

Persephone kindness

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can just imagine the furore and gnashing of teeth (on this forum alone) if it was Corbyn who was trying to convince SF to prop him up in a cling to power.

Rightly so. And we are feeling the same in this scenario I assure you.

And Leo Varadkar is Gay half indian and half Irish ..so you can imagine his personal feelings about the DUP. And theirs about him. But he has to be professional. That is the price of being a politician ...you know lying all the time.:)

FrancieBrady

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Rightly so. And we are feeling the same in this scenario I assure you.

And Leo Varadkar is Gay half indian and half Irish ..so you can imagine his personal feelings about the DUP. And theirs about him. But he has to be professional. That is the price of being a politician ...you know lying all the time.:)

And with a bit of backbone he could have knocked this on the head from the get go. By simply stating that he will have nothing to do with it and that the Irish government CANNOT, by dint of the GFA, have anything to do with it.

Next move - the Tories.

Enzokk

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Are the Scottish "conservatives" a separate party or are they the same party . i.e "The Conservative and Unionist Party" ?

If it's the latter then no agreement is required, they are just taking the party whip like any other MP.

I think it becomes blurred because of the devolved government in Scotland. I don't see how they can follow the same policy on Brexit as Theresa May, seeing how much the Remain vote was in Scotland.

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

I also cannot see how the 13 seats that the Scottish Conservatives hold can agree with a deal with the DUP? Ruth Davidson is in such a difficult position in that if she agrees to the deal that her English colleagues will demand she will be seen as going against her morals. Does she agree with the agreement whatever shape it will take? Will she sell out for power? How will this play out in the next election for her?

People seem to think that the Tory party in Scotland is different to the rest of the Tory party. Davidson is not an MP and those Tory MPs in Scotland will be subject to the Tory whip in the House of Commons

solodeogloria

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can just imagine the furore and gnashing of teeth (on this forum alone) if it was Corbyn who was trying to convince SF to prop him up in a cling to power.

Good morning!

OK - let's work with this fanciful scenario for a moment since it's interesting.

It would be far from ideal in my mind for 2 reasons. A hard left Labour party would be economically disastrous and for Sinn Féin politics. I feel the same about the DUP by the by.

It would be good for two reasons:
Firstly because it would provide a government which is always better than none. Secondly, Sinn Féin would have to actually do the work of representing their constituents in parliament.

The problem with Northern Ireland is tribalism. This is why I would vote Alliance if I lived there first. Cross community politics is much better than tribalism.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

A Dub in Glasgo

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Are the Scottish "conservatives" a separate party or are they the same party . i.e "The Conservative and Unionist Party" ?

If it's the latter then no agreement is required, they are just taking the party whip like any other MP.

They are the same party and will be subject to the Tory HoC whip. The Tories in Scotland have cultivated a 'separate' party as they did not want to be scruntinised on what the Tories were doing in Westminster during the various elections in Scotland

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

I think it becomes blurred because of the devolved government in Scotland. I don't see how they can follow the same policy on Brexit as Theresa May, seeing how much the Remain vote was in Scotland.

They are following the same policy as they are the same party

Calina

Tbf to Leo Varadkar, he is not yet Taoiseach. There are formalities.

When he is Taoiseach I expect a little more leadership.

Dyr

Persephone kindness wrote: »

We can speak our minds. Politicians cannot. We can spit fiery words. It's meaningless for us. It isn't for a Tsaoiseach. He will need to give himself room to maneuver. He will need to be diplomatic. He has been already.

https://www.rte.ie/news/uk-election-2017/2017/0609/881417-uk-election-irish-reaction/

I totally expected this and understand it.

And I dislike the DUP as much as anyone. But he can't spit acid back.

In the middle of the campaign for leadership of FG Leo made a remark that a united Ireland would require more than a simple majority in NI. The guy has a long history of mouthing off and I doubt that he's biting his tongue on the DUP and Tory arrangement. It suits him quite well

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can just imagine the furore and gnashing of teeth (on this forum alone) if it was Corbyn who was trying to convince SF to prop him up in a cling to power.

You saying your reaction is furore and teeth gnashing right now? It seems that's the amusing reaction from SF, as they try to tell those in a legislature they refuse to attend why they should be nice to SF and respect a rule about not entering arrangements that is not actually specified in the GFA.

If Corbyn looked to SF to make up the numbers, my reaction would be the same...it's democracy.

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

In the middle of the campaign for leadership of FG Leo made a remark that a united Ireland would require more than a simple majority in NI. The guy has a long history of mouthing off and I doubt that he's biting his tongue on the DUP and Tory arrangement. It suits him quite well

I can't exactly see Leo in photo ops on the steps of the Dail with the 'victims' of DUP discrimination and bigotry, can you?

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

You saying your reaction is furore and teeth gnashing right now? It seems that's the amusing reaction from SF, as they try to tell those in a legislature they refuse to attend why they should be nice to SF and respect a rule about not entering arrangements that is not actually specified in the GFA.

If Corbyn looked to SF to make up the numbers, my reaction would be the same...it's democracy.

It has nothing to do with SF.
It has everything to do with an internationally binding agreement between Ireland and the UK.

Dyr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If Corbyn looked to SF to make up the numbers, my reaction would be the same...it's democracy.

Are you sure that you wouldn't be belly aching about corbyna being an IRA sympathiser?

Persephone kindness

This man makes some excellent points.

Persephone kindness

He is totally right about the moon it's my ruling planet you need to let cancerians take over now. we are the only ones who can deal with this energy

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has nothing to do with SF.
It has everything to do with an internationally binding agreement between Ireland and the UK.

One that SF flouts every time they refer to coalition deals in the 26 counties.

Leonard Hofstadter

The thought of a Tory-DUP coalition is absolutely terrifying.

Puts Davidson in a very difficult position - while I don't expect (and don't want) openly LGBT politicians to seek special treatment for the community, I don't believe in virtue signalling, but I do expect that they will do everything to ensure that there is equal treatment of LGBT individuals (in the eyes of the law at least), that is why it is important for people to be visible and to be open about such matters.

I long for the day when it's a complete non-issue (indeed, the most remarkable thing about Varadkar becoming FG leader is how little his sexuality was mentioned in the Irish press whereas it got a massive write up abroad - just goes to show how much things have moved on in Ireland), but clearly with the prospect of the DUP in power in the national UK Government we still have a long way to go in a supposedly liberal country.

If the Tories team up with the bigoted, homophobic, creationist, anti-women DUP then they can kiss goodbye any vote from me for the rest of their lives even if they go back to being a pro-EU party.

There are some things that are more important to me than economic competence (my usual voting criterion because I don't believe in magic money trees like the left does and I don't believe in virtue signalling and pitting one group against another like the left does), human rights and equal rights for the LGBT community (and all citizens in general) being one of them. No good in having a productive economy if people don't have the freedom to be themselves, being gay or bi or trans or whatever it is should be a complete non-issue, it should be as interesting as someone having black or brown hair. Sadly the DUP still think it is and the Tories are guilty by association getting into bed with them.

A lot of liberal Tories are appalled by the notion of them teaming up with the DUP by the way.