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Privatisation by stealth

[Deleted User]

Or where all the jobs with pensions and good conditions have gone.

A small piece in the Irish times today about the public services pay talks the article says one of the reasons the talks broke down is because the government side want to change the rules for the business case for privatisation of services formerly provided by the state.

The bit they want changed is references to labour costs.

Now i'v nothing against privatisation as long as the privatised services keeps the same conditions of employment including pensions is that unreasonable?

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red ears

They have already started using private care staff. They charge plenty for it but pay the staff a pittance. The rest goes to private profit. I'm not sure why the average man and woman on the street want this. Instead of a fair wage being paid to workers that will be spent in the economy. The money will end up in some millionare or billionaires account in Malta. I would say careful what you wish for regarding privitisation.

Mrs OBumble

mariaalice wrote: »

Its in the broad area of health and social services where its happning the most. Look at private for profit companys providing fostering serviced.

But the state has never provided the majority of those services in this country. Until the 1940s, the state had very little little involvement or interest in hospitals at all.

Rekigious order provided huge amounts of services.

Buford T. Justice XIX

red ears wrote: »

They have already started using private care staff. They charge plenty for it but pay the staff a pittance. The rest goes to private profit. I'm not sure why the average man and woman on the street want this. Instead of a fair wage being paid to workers that will be spent in the economy. The money will end up in some millionare or billionaires account in Malta. I would say careful what you wish for regarding privitisation.

An article I came across on rising the minimum wage can boost the economy, in Canada anyway.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/minimum-wage-analysis-1.4141311

But it would seem to support the view that raising lots of peoples wages a bit can have a huge impact on an economy, more so than just raising a CEOs wages for example. Whoda thunk it?:rolleyes:

wordofwarning

OP what exactly is the benefit of privatisation if you want public services to the private sector for them to pay the same pension + pay to then charge a margin? There is zero benefit to the taxpayer. In fact, they are worse off as they are now paying more

Public sector pensions are unsustainable. It is biaraze that as a civil servant you get a massive salary, a massive bonus payment at retirement and then a massive pension that you not paid for at all. It is being funded by general taxation ie a working person. At least in the US public sector pensions are often funded by member contributions ie not general taxation

Public sector pensions are a ponzi scheme aka a pyramid scheme. They are being funded by current member contributions and general taxation. Current members are getting excellent benefits, but when there is less members in a few years which will happen. Everyone is ****ed. Well not everyone, as the teachers, nurses, civil servants etc are getting their pensions funded by general taxation. The only people who are ****ed is the taxpayer, paying sustainable pensions

But OP we should ignore that and keep the gravy train going?

red ears

wordofwarning wrote: »

OP what exactly is the benefit of privatisation if you want public services to the private sector for them to pay the same pension + pay to then charge a margin? There is zero benefit to the taxpayer. In fact, they are worse off as they are now paying more

Public sector pensions are unsustainable. It is biaraze that as a civil servant you get a massive salary, a massive bonus payment at retirement and then a massive pension that you not paid for at all. It is being funded by general taxation ie a working person. At least in the US public sector pensions are often funded by member contributions ie not general taxation

Public sector pensions are a ponzi scheme aka a pyramid scheme. They are being funded by current member contributions and general taxation. Current members are getting excellent benefits, but when there is less members in a few years which will happen. Everyone is ****ed. Well not everyone, as the teachers, nurses, civil servants etc are getting their pensions funded by general taxation. The only people who are ****ed is the taxpayer, paying sustainable pensions

What do you think the average public service pension is? You'd nearly imagine everyone is retiring on 80k pensions. The average will retire on 11k more than the state pension someone will get even if they never worked a day in their life. Any those public servants will pay 9% of their wage towards that additional 11k for 40 years. Post 1995.

end of the road

maudgonner wrote: »

Why should the public sector be entitled to a pension that the private sector can only dream of?

They seem unwilling to accept lower salaries as a trade off for the conditions they enjoy, so I don't see how those conditions are justified.

because they for the most part do the most important jobs.

Beyondgone

red ears wrote: »

They have already started using private care staff. They charge plenty for it but pay the staff a pittance. The rest goes to private profit. I'm not sure why the average man and woman on the street want this. Instead of a fair wage being paid to workers that will be spent in the economy. The money will end up in some millionare or billionaires account in Malta. I would say careful what you wish for regarding privitisation.

Nip over to Malta btw. An oddly prosperous little Island with no real visible industry or exports.. chock full of Elederly overseas visitors.

Why perchance? Because Malta has quietly built a Privately owned network of Hospitals specialising in "Fly-in, get surgery, recuperate and fly out." If you can afford it. Plenty can and plenty do. Is D.OB just copying what he has seen in action in his new homeland? He has certainly actively added Hospitals to his portfolio. I can see future healthcare being on a "what you can afford to pay for or have insurance to cover" basis. Pay or die. The ultimate Business of all Businesses.

goose2005

maudgonner wrote: »

Why should the public sector be entitled to a pension that the private sector can only dream of?

They seem unwilling to accept lower salaries as a trade off for the conditions they enjoy, so I don't see how those conditions are justified.

How will making work conditions worse for public employees make conditions better for private employees? If my neighbour gets a pay cut I don't get a raise.

Phoebas

Persephone kindness wrote: »

TD Pensions ..they serve one term and get life pension. No job gets that. Work for four years and a pension package ..hmm?

That's gone a good while now.

awec

red ears wrote: »

They have already started using private care staff. They charge plenty for it but pay the staff a pittance. The rest goes to private profit. I'm not sure why the average man and woman on the street want this. Instead of a fair wage being paid to workers that will be spent in the economy. The money will end up in some millionare or billionaires account in Malta. I would say careful what you wish for regarding privitisation.

I think the average man and woman on the street wants an efficient public sector that delivers value for money and the current system has shown that it cannot do this.

elperello

At the rate we are going there will be no such thing as a "good job" in a few years time.

Phoebas

goose2005 wrote: »

How will making work conditions worse for public employees make conditions better for private employees? If my neighbour gets a pay cut I don't get a raise.

If you contribute towards your neighbour's pay you do.

awec

goose2005 wrote: »

How will making work conditions worse for public employees make conditions better for private employees? If my neighbour gets a pay cut I don't get a raise.

Are you paying your neighbours wages?

RustyNut

maudgonner wrote: »

Why should the public sector be entitled to a pension that the private sector can only dream of?

They seem unwilling to accept lower salaries as a trade off for the conditions they enjoy, so I don't see how those conditions are justified.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way.

Why should private sector workers not be entitled to a decent salary and guaranteed pension?

Try drag the bottom up not the top down.

uptherebels

RustyNut wrote: »

I think you are looking at it the wrong way.

Why should private sector workers not be entitled to a decent salary and guaranteed pension?

Try drag the bottom up not the top down.

Guaranteed by who?
private business doesn't follow the magic money tree philosophy

uck51js9zml2yt

maudgonner wrote: »

Why should the public sector be entitled to a pension that the private sector can only dream of?

They seem unwilling to accept lower salaries as a trade off for the conditions they enjoy, so I don't see how those conditions are justified.

I'll be lucky to get the equivalent of a state pension....please tell me how I can get one of these guilt edge ones?

Ps I joined the civil service this year and pay a contribution to a pension I will never see.

[Deleted User]

red ears wrote: »

What do you think the average public service pension is? You'd nearly imagine everyone is retiring on 80k pensions. The average will retire on 11k more than the state pension someone will get even if they never worked a day in their life. Any those public servants will pay 9% of their wage towards that additional 11k for 40 years. Post 1995.

Why did you not mention the lump sum payment on retirement? That insignificant huh?

The workers in Poland or India are not going to stand in solidarity with their Irish brethren once jobs are moved from Ireland to overseas. That's the threat hanging over the private sector all the time. Not quite as simple just saying pay private sector more.

[Deleted User]

red ears wrote: »

They have already started using private care staff. They charge plenty for it but pay the staff a pittance. The rest goes to private profit. I'm not sure why the average man and woman on the street want this. Instead of a fair wage being paid to workers that will be spent in the economy. The money will end up in some millionare or billionaires account in Malta. I would say careful what you wish for regarding privitisation.

I have heard of all the horror stories of what people have to endure in the private hospitals like the Beacon or Mater Private.

No wait, it's the HSE hospitals where people are treated like cattle.

Persephone kindness

Leo won't do anything drastic. He isn't a leftie but he is hardly margaret thatcher.

end of the road

salonfire wrote: »

I have heard of all the horror stories of what people have to endure in the private hospitals like the Beacon or Mater Private.

No wait, it's the HSE hospitals where people are treated like cattle.

that doesn't prove privatization of health care would be a good thing or would work. it just proves we need good management and oversight to insure our public services work. privatization of public services never works for the better.

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

that doesn't prove privatization of health care would be a good thing or would work. it just proves we need good management and oversight to insure our public services work. privatization of public services never works for the better.

Of course it proves private health care works! That is why lots of people use it. I have experience of it myself and it's great.

Nobody has ever a bad word to say about it. Even one of the consultants says he gets far more done in the private sector. Nurses and theatre wards are always available.

Granted, there are aspects of the Healthcare that are better in public, particularly emergency care and chronic illnesses. But if much more of the procedural type work was taken from the HSE, then it might resemble a functioning entity.

c_man

red ears wrote: »

What do you think the average public service pension is? You'd nearly imagine everyone is retiring on 80k pensions. The average will retire on 11k more than the state pension someone will get even if they never worked a day in their life. Any those public servants will pay 9% of their wage towards that additional 11k for 40 years. Post 1995.

Doing some very rough figures here - http://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/LifeCycle/Useful-Resources/Pension-Calculator/

Assuming a salary of E33,000 (near enough the average/median wage), starting out at age 22 (unrealistic but let's go with it), retirement age of 68 (so 46 years contributions) in order to get an additional 11k... you'd need to start off with 16.5% of salary into the pot, rising to 22.9% at age 32 and 27.7% at age 37.

Wow, those poor PS workers paying in 9%. How do they manage.

relax carry on

c_man wrote: »

Doing some very rough figures here - http://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/LifeCycle/Useful-Resources/Pension-Calculator/

Assuming a salary of E33,000 (near enough the average/median wage), starting out at age 22 (unrealistic but let's go with it), retirement age of 68 (so 46 years contributions) in order to get an additional 11k... you'd need to start off with 16.5% of salary into the pot, rising to 22.9% at age 32 and 27.7% at age 37.

Wow, those poor PS workers paying in 9%. How do they manage.

Using your starting age of 22 and an average salary of 33k to get 50% of your previous retirement salary means 6.1% to 10.3%. The bulk of the 16500 the person retires on is made up of the PRSI funded state pension.

c_man

relax carry on wrote: »

Using your starting age of 22 and an average salary of 33k to get 50% of your previous retirement salary means 6.1% to 10.3%. The bulk of the 16500 the person retires on is made up of the PRSI funded state pension.

So what? That's not what the person I was replying to said. They said they'll get E11k above the state pension, my figures relate to that (and give the private sector worker more years to get there, so should arguably be higher for a 40 year span).

[Deleted User]

c_man wrote: »

So what? That's not what the person I was replying to said. They said they'll get E11k above the state pension, my figures relate to that (and give the private sector worker more years to get there, so should arguably be higher for a 40 year span).

You did not take into account the lump sum payment public sector gets. So they should be paying even more than you calculated.

maudgonner

RustyNut wrote: »

I think you are looking at it the wrong way.

Why should private sector workers not be entitled to a decent salary and guaranteed pension?

Try drag the bottom up not the top down.

Did you somehow skip over my other post? That's exactly what I'm suggesting should be prioritised.

maudgonner wrote: »

Let's start with eliminating zero hour contracts and work from there.

Our social welfare system needs an immediate overhaul too, so that those who get stuck working e.g. a 15 hour week spread out over 5 days don't lose all their benefits for the week. That's absolutely scandalous.

I find it hard to have sympathy for public sector workers when there's people on the lowest wages putting up with this kind of crap.

But there's a hell of a long way to go before 'the bottom' gets near to public sector conditions.

c_man

salonfire wrote: »

You did not take into account the lump sum payment public sector gets. So they should be paying even more than you calculated.

You're right. But they'll still say they're being hard done by

Hotblack Desiato

wordofwarning wrote: »

It is biaraze that as a civil servant you get a massive salary

:rolleyes:
Go on over to Work and Jobs forum and see what the posters there think of the 'massive' salaries on offer for clerical officers and executive officers.

[Deleted User]

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Go on over to Work and Jobs forum and see what the posters there think of the 'massive' salaries on offer for clerical officers and executive officers.

And you'll see there are plenty of people who entered the competitions. Can't be that bad when so many people are applying.

Go to the jobs websites for clerical work in the private sector and you will see they pay even less. People know that. Hence the competition for places in public and civil sectors

end of the road

salonfire wrote: »

Of course it proves private health care works! That is why lots of people use it. I have experience of it myself and it's great.

Nobody has ever a bad word to say about it. Even one of the consultants says he gets far more done in the private sector. Nurses and theatre wards are always available.

Granted, there are aspects of the Healthcare that are better in public, particularly emergency care and chronic illnesses. But if much more of the procedural type work was taken from the HSE, then it might resemble a functioning entity.

it proves private health care as well as the state health care works. not that privatized health care works. i also have experience of private health care and agree it is good however i also have witnessed a plenty what happens when you put public services in private hands and it does not work.