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Where now for ASTI? **ASTI Action- Part III - See 1st Post*

MrJones1973

***********************************************************Just going to borrow your first post MrWhite...

Ok new thread.

Address the points made (rather than the poster).
Definitely no personal comments judging other posters. Especially the trolls.
Definitely no telling other posters to leave the thread or 'jog on' etc that is considered back-seat-modding.

***Any New posters to the forum ***
Read the charter.
Also, 'Three months holidays', 'only working 22hrs' 'performance related pay' 'public sector vs' private sector' are old, typically uninformed and very very tired. It Invariably ends up in derailing a thread and annoying folk too... but feel free to start a new thread. This type of stuff may most likely be deleted from this thread. If you stumble in here and start at this, then you will not be entertained by mods and may find yourself removed from the forum tout suite.

Also now considered off topic is the old line that 'older teachers sold the younger ones out'. If you start this you may get actioned on... most likely because it means you haven't read this first post!

As usual do not respond to flaming if you are a regular poster. Just report it as off-topic and leave the rest to us (when we get around to it). You know yourselves at this stage that you're wasting your energy.

Also, thanks to those who have kept their cool and put people on ignore or reported posts.

FINALLY: If you feel like PMing a mod to question mod actions, you will be first asked if you agree with this warning and the charter. If you don't then definitely this place isn't for you. Quite often the trolls who try to drag the thread off topic rarely ever address the counter-arguments made anyway!.

Ta

Mod

***********************************************************

Im gutted. My feeling was having set down this path they should have continued action. Could talks not have been held while Industrial action went on?

Secondly-Once they allowed no derogation for Principals and went for a Nov 7th date-it was clear schools were going to close. If they didnt see that coming then I doubt the SC capacity for strategic thought.

They did gamble on a Gov cave in on s and s but having lost that bet they should have kept pressure on and so what if members signed form saying they would do s and S?
I have heard that boards in a lot of cases had vetted staff ready.
The Asti could have allowed staff to apply for paid s and S.

Im probably resigning Union membership next week.
I know ASTI is only block on the Department totally riding us but I cant go through another HR vote and .

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acequion

jayo76 wrote: »

Acequion what is your general feeling now after today's Standing Committee meeting? Do you think there has been a lessening of resolve, are we looking at a stand down?

Well I'm not on SC,jayo76 and I haven't been talking to anyone on it so as yet I don't know what the general feeling is on SC.

There's no doubt that right now this letter swings the momentum in favour of standing down and if the special convention were tomorrow that would be the most likely outcome. However the special convention is still two weeks away and who knows how things will look then. The pay talks will be well advanced or over by then and whatever emerges from that should have a big bearing on the special convention.

Also,delegates will have been chosen in all branches by now and I'd imagine the people going will be either strongly for or strongly against standing down. There won't be a large middle ground easily persuaded on the day,as there would be at annual convention where a lot of people are just there for the craic /piss up/nice holiday in Killarney as was the case this year.

It doesn't at all surprise me that the Govt are now trying to welcome us back with open arms. They always wanted us in the LRA and they always badly needed us onboard with the new JC. All the more reason to resist the carrot but it really could go either way.

JD3112

Gebgbegb wrote: »

My understanding was that 2 yr CID's were contingent on ASTI being in LR.

But it says in the letter "ASTi members would again be covered by the terms of the Ward Circular, including reduced qualifying period for a CID and the removal of the career break and job sharing categories of objective grounds"

It does seem strange that the Dept. would be giving us the 'benefits' without being in the LRA as long as we suspend ind. action.

But maybe they think that once we suspend it, we have lost and there'll be no appetite for reinstatement. But we'll be voting on a different agreement by then anyway so quite strange.

Also, what margin does the motion at special convention need to pass by to be carried??

evolving_doors

JD3112 wrote: »

Is there a deadline on receiving CIDs?

If I am reading the letter correctly, if the action is suspended, members could apply for CIDs and get their contracts?

I assume, regardless of what is said about the 'benefits' being rescinded they couldn't take that CID back off them as it is a contract of indefinite duration after all??

If that is the case, and the young teachers get their CIDs quickly, I would be on for suspending action and then reinstating it in September if the new pay deal isn't good enough

My understanding was that 2 yr CID's were contingent on ASTI being in LR.

JD3112

Is there a deadline on receiving CIDs?

If I am reading the letter correctly, if the action is suspended, members could apply for CIDs and get their contracts?

I assume, regardless of what is said about the 'benefits' being rescinded they couldn't take that CID back off them as it is a contract of indefinite duration after all??

If that is the case, and the young teachers get their CIDs quickly, I would be on for suspending action and then reinstating it in September if the new pay deal isn't good enough

jayo76

acequion wrote: »

The trouble is that it will be harder now to persuade people to hold the line and they know that full well and are smelling blood. Now while I could respect a desire to stand down action if it were the result of a ballot,that it might result from a coup staged by a bunch of people who are basically pandering to their own agenda would make my blood boil.

Acequion what is your general feeling now after today's Standing Committee meeting? Do you think there has been a lessening of resolve, are we looking at a stand down?

acequion

2011abc wrote: »

Gas that the letters from Dept are signed by Assistant General Secretary who must be playing 'Good Cop'.Was some stunt during last long spell without a government running the country when the Dept head honcho was doing his best Rambo impression launching ad hoc attacks on ASTI .Some ego !

The trouble is that it will be harder now to persuade people to hold the line and they know that full well and are smelling blood. Now while I could respect a desire to stand down action if it were the result of a ballot,that it might result from a coup staged by a bunch of people who are basically pandering to their own agenda would make my blood boil.

acequion

dory wrote: »

I think I would after all this. I'd love to be on equal pay to everyone else but at this stage I'd love to: throw JC under bus, get some kind of pay restoration, move on.

Every single day I'm hearing of more people heading over to TUI. Can understand why.

So you're ready to throw in the towel? So are plenty of others, it seems. And while I sympathise,do remember that your idea of moving on is basically moving on to even worse working conditions and an even greater workload,and in your case, for very poor pay.

The Govt are breaking people's resolve as they have done time and time again. And people will give in as they have done time and time again.Until they can't stick it anymore and vote to strike in huge numbers as they have done time and time again. It's all so predictable it's almost getting boring.

We will never regain any lost ground while we keep caving in.

km79

jayo76 wrote: »

What was the pattern of events at Standing Committee today? Were Standing Committee in favour of standing down action?

Anyone ?

2011abc

Gas that the letters from Dept are signed by Assistant General Secretary who must be playing 'Good Cop'.Was some stunt during last long spell without a government running the country when the Dept head honcho was doing his best Rambo impression launching ad hoc attacks on ASTI .Some ego !

jayo76

What was the pattern of events at Standing Committee today? Were Standing Committee in favour of standing down action?

km79

http://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/update-on-current-issues/

MrJones1973

I cant see next pay deal being rejected. But I have been wrong before!

Icsics

TUI members in voluntary secondaries are getting the 40 minutes off timetable for planning next yr, negotiated by JMB with DES

dory

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Pay equality will not be offered just extra money for new entrants but not pay equality per se

I think I would after all this. I'd love to be on equal pay to everyone else but at this stage I'd love to: throw JC under bus, get some kind of pay restoration, move on.

Every single day I'm hearing of more people heading over to TUI. Can understand why.

SligoBrewer

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Pay equality will not be offered just extra money for new entrants but not pay equality per se

And I won't accept it.

MrJones1973

doc_17 wrote: »

The last deal was rejected by 52-48 with no pay equality. If it were offered in addition to that I think the middle ground would shift.

But fair play to the ASTI anyway. Their principles are correct even if I don't think their strategy is correct.

Pay equality will not be offered just extra money for new entrants but not pay equality per se

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

Very much doubt it. You assume people are very noble,they're not. Don't forget that pay equality only affects the post 2011 cohort. The greater majority of serving teachers are pre 2011. They will put their own interests first. It's human nature.

The last deal was rejected by 52-48 with no pay equality. If it were offered in addition to that I think the middle ground would shift.

But fair play to the ASTI anyway. Their principles are correct even if I don't think their strategy is correct.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I am sure you are right about the timing of the announcement, however the strike day called in February by the TUI was designed to put pressure on the government on the eve of the general election. They caved in and offered talks. When we voted last May we were told talks would take place over the summer, which they did along with the INTO. I knew by the end of August something was coming, but obviously the minister was playing politics, waiting for the opportune time to announce it.
You may feel that the gains offered were down to the Asti stance, and you are entitled to that opinion, but cast your mind back to when the ward report was issued. No union was in dispute when that was granted. It is possible sometimes to convince the department what is the right thing to do. That is the current TUI strategy. Have them understand how important pay equality is and get them to lobby DPER on it,

You have a more benign view of the department /Govt than I do.They don't want to understand the importance of pay equality because they are committed to driving down costs. And I take your point about the Ward report but removing it from ASTI members was pure vindictiveness, so I wouldn't have much faith in their interest in good causes. TUI's Eddie Conlon is pessimistic about the pay talks and I'd be inclined to agree. I can't see them yielding much more on pay equality but we have to stick to our guns and for once have the two unions united in this cause.Together we're much stronger.

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

Where that came from was The ASTI's announcement of strike days to begin in October. Strategic timing to take the wind out of our sails and also the fact that there was a union outside the LRA who were prepared to confront the issue head on. You are deluded if you think otherwise and I'm laughing at being compared to Trump.

I am sure you are right about the timing of the announcement, however the strike day called in February by the TUI was designed to put pressure on the government on the eve of the general election. They caved in and offered talks. When we voted last May we were told talks would take place over the summer, which they did along with the INTO. I knew by the end of August something was coming, but obviously the minister was playing politics, waiting for the opportune time to announce it.
You may feel that the gains offered were down to the Asti stance, and you are entitled to that opinion, but cast your mind back to when the ward report was issued. No union was in dispute when that was granted. It is possible sometimes to convince the department what is the right thing to do. That is the current TUI strategy. Have them understand how important pay equality is and get them to lobby DPER on it,

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I don't know what parallel universe you are operating in. Where do you think last Septembers deal came from for new entrants pay?. You are sounding like Trump now.

Where that came from was The ASTI's announcement of strike days to begin in October. Strategic timing to take the wind out of our sails and also the fact that there was a union outside the LRA who were prepared to confront the issue head on. You are deluded if you think otherwise and I'm laughing at being compared to Trump.

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

Yes but ye didn't actually go out and strike. So I very much doubt that opened any negotiations.

I don't know what parallel universe you are operating in. Where do you think last Septembers deal came from for new entrants pay?. You are sounding like Trump now.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I think you will find the TUI took up the cause before the Asti. We had a ballot and strike ready in february 2016 which opened negotiations. Asti went out in November. It is just that the TUI took a different strategy to secure partial restoration when it was offered.
The younger teachers will never forgive any of us if the next deal does not map out a return to equality.

Yes but ye didn't actually go out and strike. So I very much doubt that opened any negotiations.

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

Look ye're all business about pay equality now,but we are the ones who actually went out on strike and lost pay for that cause. Now personally I would do those hours in return for pay equality as I think the pay apartheid is a blight on the profession and utterly unjust. Also I'm a union activist and I believe in our campaigns.

But I don't have a ton of years left to serve unlike younger collegues, so a teacher with 20 or so years still ahead,neither involved in or particularly impressed with the union, isn't going to have pay equality as a top priority.

I think you will find the TUI took up the cause before the Asti. We had a ballot and strike ready in february 2016 which opened negotiations. Asti went out in November. It is just that the TUI took a different strategy to secure partial restoration when it was offered.
The younger teachers will never forgive any of us if the next deal does not map out a return to equality.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Never said I liked them, but if they were scrapped we wouldn't get all 33 back anyway. Department will want to cling on at least to what you outlined.
So we might have to suck it up and get on with doing them to secure pay equality.

Look ye're all business about pay equality now,but we are the ones who actually went out on strike and lost pay for that cause. Now personally I would do those hours in return for pay equality as I think the pay apartheid is a blight on the profession and utterly unjust. Also I'm a union activist and I believe in our campaigns.

But I don't have a ton of years left to serve unlike younger collegues, so a teacher with 20 or so years still ahead,neither involved in or particularly impressed with the union, isn't going to have pay equality as a top priority.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

What is abused?

The discretionary aspect of the 33hrs, I know of many teachers in tui schools who approached management wanting to to xyz with some of these hrs only to be told no, they have to be of the schools prescribed list etc

joebloggs32

acequion wrote: »

Have you guys in TUI no backbone! The Tiger is starting to roar again,next we'll be hearing again how the country is "awash with money", but our pay and conditions have been utterly savaged and here you are defending those godawful hours!! I don't do the open nights as I'm generally too busy prepping and correcting! Not to mention the myriad of hours that we all put in in a job with an ever increasing workload! Those official CP hours are punitive, demeaning and utterly unproductive and now is the time to have them scrapped! As I've said on numerous occasions,staff and P/T meetings after school,ok but then feck off! We'll still do tons of hours over and above but on our own terms as was always the case.

I will be gobsmacked if unions expect their members to suck them up for life and even more gobsmacked if the eejit members agree to that.

Never said I liked them, but if they were scrapped we wouldn't get all 33 back anyway. Department will want to cling on at least to what you outlined.
So we might have to suck it up and get on with doing them to secure pay equality.

acequion

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If you account for the 10 personal hours now in, along with parent teacher meetings, an open night and maybe one day before the start of the school year, you're well on the way to 33 hours.

Have you guys in TUI no backbone! The Tiger is starting to roar again,next we'll be hearing again how the country is "awash with money", but our pay and conditions have been utterly savaged and here you are defending those godawful hours!! I don't do the open nights as I'm generally too busy prepping and correcting! Not to mention the myriad of hours that we all put in in a job with an ever increasing workload! Those official CP hours are punitive, demeaning and utterly unproductive and now is the time to have them scrapped! As I've said on numerous occasions,staff and P/T meetings after school,ok but then feck off! We'll still do tons of hours over and above but on our own terms as was always the case.

I will be gobsmacked if unions expect their members to suck them up for life and even more gobsmacked if the eejit members agree to that.

man_no_plan

judeboy101 wrote: »

Personal, me arse. We have all heard of schools where this is abused by management and tui do nothing about it.

What is abused?

judeboy101

acequion wrote: »

Very much doubt it. You assume people are very noble,they're not. Don't forget that pay equality only affects the post 2011 cohort. The greater majority of serving teachers are pre 2011. They will put their own interests first. It's human nature.

Personal, me arse. We have all heard of schools where this is abused by management and tui do nothing about it.

joebloggs32

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I dont see Croke Park hours going but I cant see why they cant be altered. ie each teacher agrees to do x amount of hours which he or she is accountable to Principal. Collegiality varies greatly in schools-forcing people to sit down once in a blue moon to write a subject plan is pure tripe. They should be allowed communicate via e mail or other such modern mediums. Or meet when it suits them. Its the same backward thinking that asks students to write Personal letters on a LC English paper-has nobody told them that nobody writes personal letters anymore??!

If you account for the 10 personal hours now in, along with parent teacher meetings, an open night and maybe one day before the start of the school year, you're well on the way to 33 hours.