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Buses and bicycles - whats the story

dashcamdanny

Just looking for a bit of input from cyclists.

I drive a bus.

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Does this include bikes? A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday. And took exception to it. Swearing and making plonker out of himself infront of a packed bus.

Just wondering who is in the right. Are bikes considered traffic?

The reason I dont ask in the motors forum is that it will be 90% anti-cycle ..

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Cantona's Collars

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Just looking for a bit of input from cyclists.

I drive a bus.

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Does this include bikes? A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday. And took exception to it. Swearing and making plonker out of himself infront of a packed bus.

Just wondering who is in the right. Are bikes considered traffic?

The reason I dont ask in the motors forum is that it will be 90% anti-cycle ..

Bikes are considered to be a vehicle and are classed as traffic, they are liable to the same rules as cars,buses etc.

mr spuckler

cyclists are treated as normal traffic.

i wasn't aware however that any traffic had to yield to a bus pulling out from a stop?

Pinch Flat

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Just looking for a bit of input from cyclists.

I drive a bus.

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Does this include bikes? A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday. And took exception to it. Swearing and making plonker out of himself infront of a packed bus.

Just wondering who is in the right. Are bikes considered traffic?

The reason I dont ask in the motors forum is that it will be 90% anti-cycle ..

My understanding Is that and indicator does not give automatic right of way, the onus is still on you to make sure no other traffic is approaching (including a bike - we're traffic as well

) before pulling out.

A bit of cop on always goes a long way as well, so if I see a bus pulling out as I'm approaching, I'll hold back to let him continue - not point in me overtaking for me to either hold him up or risk a close pass when he tried to overtake and there's not enough room.

Seaswimmer

Pinch Flat wrote: »

My understanding Is that and indicator does not give automatic right of way, the onus is still on you to make sure no other traffic is approaching (including a bike - we're traffic as well ) before pulling out.

A bit of cop on always goes a long way as well, so if I see a bus pulling out as I'm approaching, I'll hold back to let him continue - not point in me overtaking for me to either hold him up or risk a close pass when he tried to overtake and there's not enough room.

Exactly this. Except there seems to be a bit of a trend where bus drivers put on their indicator way too early and you wait patiently only to find people still standing paying their fare. Or maybe I have just noticed it a bit recently.

dashcamdanny

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Exactly this. Except there seems to be a bit of a trend where bus drivers put on their indicator way to early and you wait patiently only to find people still standing paying their fare. Or maybe I have just noticed it a bit recently.

Rules of the road clearly state that traffic should yield to an indicating bus pulling back into traffic.

danmanw8

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Exactly this. Except there seems to be a bit of a trend where bus drivers put on their indicator way to early and you wait patiently only to find people still standing paying their fare. Or maybe I have just noticed it a bit recently.

No, I've noticed this too. When I'm in my car, I think they're about to pull out and I wait for them and nothing happens.

Seaswimmer

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Rules of the road clearly state that traffic should yield to an indicating bus pulling back into traffic.

Should.......not must:)

amcalester

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Rules of the road clearly state that traffic should yield to an indicating bus pulling back into traffic.

Rules of the road or Statute? Only one of these has any legal bearing.

Edited:
I still wouldn't try to pass a bus that was half way through a maneuver.

dashcamdanny

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Should.......not must:)

Ahh.. you know the rules of the road!!:pac::pac::pac::D

Should is a very gray area!!

mr spuckler

the rotr says...

Taking care with buses and pedestrians
You should allow signalling buses back into the stream of traffic after they let passengers on and off.

funnily enough on the same page of the rotr as the above we have...

Taking care with cyclists
If you are at a junction where there is an advanced stop line for cyclists, you should allow cyclists to move off ahead of you.

so yeah, "should" does seem to be very subjective!

dashcamdanny

If I think they can stop safely or move away from me, I pull out. If they are passing me or about to pass, I yield to cycles (or cars) .

SOme cyclist go mental and start swearing like crazy though.

I just found a thread on it. Here on boards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057006771

Danbo!

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Exactly this. Except there seems to be a bit of a trend where bus drivers put on their indicator way too early and you wait patiently only to find people still standing paying their fare. Or maybe I have just noticed it a bit recently.

I've noticed this for quite a while. Not all drivers do it, but I do understand why some do. It can be pretty frustrating to check behind, signal, go for the overtake, see the indicator before you clear the back of the bus, abandon the manoeuvre, move back to kerb, only to see a few passengers still waiting and sit and wait for the bus to actually move off.

dashcamdanny

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Exactly this. Except there seems to be a bit of a trend where bus drivers put on their indicator way too early and you wait patiently only to find people still standing paying their fare. Or maybe I have just noticed it a bit recently.

This does happen. There are reasons for it. The two main reasons are

1. The door brake on the bus. We hit the close door button and indicator at the same time. Some buses close the door quick and its never a problem. Other buses with 2 doors or a slow door that will not release the brakes until everything is shut up tight. a few seconds.
2. A passenger thumbing for change or asking questions when you expect them to be in their seat and you are letting the hand brake off.. ..

And I nearly forgot. some buses will not release the brakes unless the suspension is full up. The driver is trying to go, but the bus says no.

magicbastarder

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Surprised no other pedant hasn't pointed this out before but this is one of the (thankfully) few "near misses". Technically, all the others are near collisions.

Sorry!

you appear to be assuming 'near' means 'nearly' - one means close proximity, the other means almost, but not quite.

magicbastarder

i.e. i can legitimately claim that i was once near the winner of the tour de france.
i cannot claim that i was once nearly the winner of the tour de france.

ThisRegard

dashcamdanny wrote: »

If I think they can stop safely

You shouldn't be pulling out in front of cyclists if they have to stop because of it.

shootermacg

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Just looking for a bit of input from cyclists.

I drive a bus.

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Does this include bikes? A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday. And took exception to it. Swearing and making plonker out of himself infront of a packed bus.

Just wondering who is in the right. Are bikes considered traffic?

The reason I dont ask in the motors forum is that it will be 90% anti-cycle ..

You are parked for all intents and purposes and it's up to you to safely enter traffic. But you'll find cyclists will be more liable to let the bus out when they see an indicator, because you're blocking the cycle lane. Other traffic just want to be ahead of a bus, so that you're not holding them up at the next stop. That behavior becomes more ridiculous the nearer you get to town, because of the mad rush to get 10M down the road to the tail end of traffic.

check_six

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I drive a bus.

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Are bikes considered traffic?

I know you're inquiring with the best of intentions, and you're just looking for the appropriate system that will keep everyone happy out on the roads, but your post has scared the sh*t out of me, if I'm honest.

I'm reminded of the other bus close passes listed in this very thread, and I'm wondering if the bus drivers in those stories are deciding if cyclists are considered traffic or something 'lesser' when they go for their poorly chosen manoeuvre.

Anyway, it looks like you've got a good steer from the other posters on here, so maybe you could spread the word with your colleagues?

dashcamdanny

ThisRegard wrote: »

You shouldn't be pulling out in front of cyclists if they have to stop because of it.

As the original question stated. Why not? The rules of the road says traffic should give way to a bus.

It also says I should pull out safely. If a bike has to stop safely, then why should I not pull out.

By not, I would have to wait with 70 odd people on board while someone lets me out.

Its black and white in any other countries. If you see an indicator , you stop and give way. Or get fined in some cases.

As Ireland seems not to prioritize public transport, it leaves the area gray.

Seaswimmer

dashcamdanny wrote: »

As the original question stated. Why not? The rules of the road says traffic should give way to a bus.

It also says I should pull out safely. If a bike has to stop safely, then why should I not pull out.

By not, I would have to wait with 70 odd people on board while someone lets me out.

Its black and white in any other countries. If you see an indicator , you stop and give way. Or get fined in some cases.

As Ireland seems not to prioritize public transport, it leaves the area gray.

This is the point. Signage on buses, an advertising campaign and a law on the statute books (with appropriate penalty points/ on the spot fines) should improve the situation.

Tombo2001

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Just looking for a bit of input from cyclists.

I drive a bus.

As you already probably know. Traffic must yield to and indicating bus pulling back into traffic from a stop.

Does this include bikes? A bike got a bit of a squeeze yesterday when to passed me at speed from my while I was in the middle of a maneuver yesterday. And took exception to it. Swearing and making plonker out of himself infront of a packed bus.

Just wondering who is in the right. Are bikes considered traffic?

The reason I dont ask in the motors forum is that it will be 90% anti-cycle ..

Theres the ROTR and there is what is safe.

I think in both respects, once that indicator goes on, the bike should be hanging back, should not attempt an overtake.

What I find sometimes is that I am beginning my overtake - and bear in mind it probably takes 2-3 seconds for a bike to pass a bus -I am beginning my overtake and then the indicator goes on at the same time so now I am on the RHS of the bus.

Sometimes, rarely to be honest, but sometimes....the bus will put on the indicator and pull out at the same time - and if I am on the RHS of the bus then that obviously is a problem.

I had an interesting one yesterday on Pearse St where I was cycling in the Bus Lane. A bus ahead of me was stationary, and I went to overtake it. However as I was overtaking (into the RHS lane) the bus took off, driving ahead in the bus lane. So then I had clear bus lane to my left again. I went to move back into it; however another bus was travelling fast along the lane and basically didn't slow down at all as the first bus had taken off - this was split second stuff and fortunately I had looked back and saw him coming.

mr spuckler

dashcamdanny wrote: »

As the original question stated. Why not? The rules of the road says traffic should give way to a bus.

It also says I should pull out safely. If a bike has to stop safely, then why should I not pull out.

By not, I would have to wait with 70 odd people on board while someone lets me out.

Its black and white in any other countries. If you see an indicator , you stop and give way. Or get fined in some cases.

As Ireland seems not to prioritize public transport, it leaves the area gray.

it's a deliberately narrow interpretation to use this as your logic but ignore the other rules that might disagree with it.

bearing in mind you started out by saying that other traffic must give way and are now saying that your 70 passengers give you the right to do things that the rules of the road don't.

HivemindXX

I'm a little surprised this is an issue when it seems to me that cars are a far bigger problem in this situation. I would generally prefer to have a bus ahead of than behind me so I almost always wait behind one that is indicating. I very frequently see the bus, which has been indicating, start to pull out and then have to stop while a steady stream of cars, all of whom would much rather be the ones ahead, go past.

As was already mentioned I have often enough found that even though the driver is indicating they are not yet ready to pull out. On occasion they will pull out anyway when I am passing, which is very annoying. Check your copy of the rules of the road, drivers must make sure it is clear before they pull out. Not should. Must.

I have also experienced busses which start to indicate and then pull out after I have already started to pass. Once again nobody should have any problem understanding why a cyclist would be annoyed by this sort of dangerous driving.

Most cyclists seem to be very happy to wait to let busses out.

dashcamdanny

HivemindXX wrote: »

I'm a little surprised this is an issue when it seems to me that cars are a far bigger problem in this situation. I would generally prefer to have a bus ahead of than behind me so I almost always wait behind one that is indicating. I very frequently see the bus, which has been indicating, start to pull out and then have to stop while a steady stream of cars, all of whom would much rather be the ones ahead, go past.

As was already mentioned I have often enough found that even though the driver is indicating they are not yet ready to pull out. On occasion they will pull out anyway when I am passing, which is very annoying. Check your copy of the rules of the road, drivers must make sure it is clear before they pull out. Not should. Must.

I have also experienced busses which start to indicate and then pull out after I have already started to pass. Once again nobody should have any problem understanding why a cyclist would be annoyed by this sort of dangerous driving.

Most cyclists seem to be very happy to wait to let busses out.

I would never delibratly put anyone in any danger, I would wishfully hope all the driver would be on the same line of thought.

You are correct , most cycles do let us out.

But what you said about the rules. This is the area that needs to be clear.

Say I have a soild line of traffic to my right. travelling at 30kph. If I was to wait till it was clear, I would have to wait in my stop till the end of rush hour. Unless I get let out.
So its written in that other traffic should yield to me.

So what is it? Do I ignore one rule..

I know common sence prevails, but what about the black and white. Waiting on charity from other road users has no place in court if there is an accident.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

dashcamdanny wrote: »

As the original question stated. Why not?

Because it's dangerous and stupid. I hope that's clear enough for you. It doesn't matter if you are driving a bus, car or motorbike.

The rules of the road says traffic should give way to a bus.

Should, as in, "I should really go to the gym today". Rules of the road are not law, show us where it states that traffic must (not should) yield to traffic.

Buses should also stop at red lights and don't have the right to block a yellow box, but that's an every day occurrence in Dublin.

It also says I should pull out safely. If a bike has to stop safely, then why should I not pull out.

By not, I would have to wait with 70 odd people on board while someone lets me out.

Its black and white in any other countries. If you see an indicator , you stop and give way. Or get fined in some cases.

As Ireland seems not to prioritize public transport, it leaves the area gray.

But we are not discussing any other country, we are discussing Ireland. You can't just pick and chose rules from other countries to compare to Ireland, that's just not logical.

Indicator does NOT give you right of way.

magicbastarder

dashcamdanny wrote: »

The rules of the road says traffic should give way to a bus.

the issue here though is that the ROTR is not the law.
that said, i do try to be courteous to buses. what goes around, etc.

dashcamdanny

Helen Some Codfish wrote: »

Because it's dangerous and stupid. I hope that's clear enough for you. It doesn't matter if you are driving a bus, car or motorbike.

Should, as in, "I should really go to the gym today". Rules of the road are not law, show us where it states that traffic must (not should) yield to traffic.

Buses should also stop at red lights and don't have the right to block a yellow box, but that's an every day occurrence in Dublin.

But we are not discussing any other country, we are discussing Ireland. You can't just pick and chose rules from other countries to compare to Ireland, that's just not logical.

Indicator does NOT give you right of way.

I was being very clear. I would not pull out if it was dangerous. That means it would be safe to stop behind me.

Are you trying to turn this into some sort of angry argument? We all see silly stuff everyday on Dublin roads, From suicidal cycles to raging bus drivers.

The question was the interpretation of this

"You should allow signalling buses back into the stream of traffic after they let passengers on and off. Be especially careful of pedestrians getting on and off buses and of children near schools, and when near schools always be prepared to stop."

And whether cycles and other road users should or do abide by it. By overtaking you put enlightening passengers at risk.

Should it be written into law to make it compulsory? Like other counties. Which does have bearing as Ireland seems to be behind other counties with regard public transport. And we need to model ourselves on systems that work.

Being not written into law does as much weight as you think as lots of road practice in the ROTR are not in the irish statute book yet if you disobey them you will be blamed in an accident.

cjt156

The 'rules of the road' are easy to quote without any reference to any legal source material.
I'd be very interested in seeing the legislation that says traffic must stop for an indicating bus. I'd happily admit to being wrong if anyone can point me to it.

Annie get your Run

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I was being very clear. I would not pull out if it was dangerous. That means it would be safe to stop behind me.

"You should allow signalling buses back into the stream of traffic after they let passengers on and off. Be especially careful of pedestrians getting on and off buses and of children near schools, and when near schools always be prepared to stop."

And whether cycles and other road users should or do abide by it. By overtaking you put enlightening passengers at risk.

Should it be written into law to make it compulsory? Like other counties. Which does have bearing as Ireland seems to be behind other counties with regard public transport. And we need to model ourselves on systems that work.

Being not written into law does as much weight as you think as lots of road practice in the ROTR are not in the irish statute book yet if you disobey them you will be blamed in an accident.

I'm not sure you can make this call yourself though, how do you know whether its safe for someone else to stop or not? My understanding of the rules of the road are that you shouldn't do anything that causes another road user to have to stop suddenly.

For what it's worth putting something on the statute books won't mean it's followed either, unfortunately there are very many people on our roads who don't care a whit about the 'rules' or the law for that matter.

I will yield to a bus if I can, if I haven't yielded to you it's because it was not safe for me to do so. Sometimes drivers will recognise that and stay stopped, sometimes they don't care less about me or my safety and they'll continue the manouver putting me in further danger.

NeedMoreGears

As far as I can see from SI 294 of 1964 (I cant seem to locate a more up to date version)

22.—(1) When starting from a stationary position a driver shall yield the right of way to other traffic and pedestrians

This appears to be the legal requirement - I couldn't locate a provision that gave an exemption to buses or imposed an obligation on other drivers (which definition includes the person cycling a bike) to yield when a bus has signalled an intent to pull out. Having said that , it makes sense to me that drivers should let buses out as a matter of courtesy - but the fact remains that other drivers are not obliged to yield the right of way to a bus in the circumstances described.