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2018 Leaf

BoatMad

Had it confirmed by Nissan Ireland , 2018 leaf will debut with 40 kWh battery !

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cros13

Soarer wrote: »

Any news on standard 6.6 charging?

It's going to be 3-phase charging as standard (probably 11kW) so on your single phase home chargepoint it will work at 3.6kW. Possibility of a higher charging rate as an option or standard but I don't have definite info on that.

Mope

11kW sounds nice for SCP ;]

unkel

3.6kW with a 60kWh battery is useless. Unless you mostly work from home and have the car plugged in all the time. Or can charge at work as well as at home. Either way it is very silly to have such slow charging as standard

cros13

3.6kW for 9 hours of nightsaver is 32.4kWh. Unless you are doing over 200km every day it should be fine for most people.

BoatMad

Soarer wrote: »

Good man cros.

Any news on standard 6.6 charging?

You'd like to think it can't be too far north of 30k as it'll be pushing towards the Model 3. And hopefully sub 30k with scrappage.

60kWh Leaf with fast charging for ~28k after scrappage would be nice.

I think any leaf after rebates goes over 30k euros here will struggle

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

3.6kW for 9 hours of nightsaver is 32.4kWh. Unless you are doing over 200km every day it should be fine for most people.

Disagree. Who do you know can leave the house after 9AM? For most of us it's 7:30AM or even a lot earlier

And 24kW (7.5 hours night saver) won't even give you 150km. If that was enough for someone, they would buy a 40kWh Leaf, and not spend €5k extra for a 60kWh Leaf

It's a terrible mistake it comes with just 3.3kW charging. It doesn't matter if your battery is 24kWh / 28kWh / 30kWh / 40kWh but if it is 60kWh you need faster charging. Bad call, Nissan.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Disagree. Who do you know can leave the house after 9AM? For most of us it's 7:30AM or even a lot earlier

And 24kW (7.5 hours night saver) won't even give you 150km. If that was enough for someone, they would buy a 40kWh Leaf, and not spend €5k extra for a 60kWh Leaf

It's a terrible mistake it comes with just 3.3kW charging. It doesn't matter if your battery is 24kWh / 28kWh / 30kWh / 40kWh but if it is 60kWh you need faster charging. Bad call, Nissan.

At Nissan's end of the market they are probably tight on margin and so they use the 6.6kW upgrade as a means of getting more money out of you. For most people the 7.5hrs will be enough and if its not you pay the extra.

Obviously if the competition, like the Ioniq, offers 7kW as standard and everything else is equal then Nissan will have to re-evaluate but there are a lot of variables involved.

In the UK the 6.6kW charger was standard on the Leaf for a while.... I think on the SVE model(?)... so maybe they will do something similar this time too.... maybe offer 6.6kW as standard on the SVE and/or on the 60kWh model but every other model its a paid option.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Disagree. Who do you know can leave the house after 9AM? For most of us it's 7:30AM or even a lot earlier

And 24kW (7.5 hours night saver) won't even give you 150km. If that was enough for someone, they would buy a 40kWh Leaf, and not spend €5k extra for a 60kWh Leaf

It's a terrible mistake it comes with just 3.3kW charging. It doesn't matter if your battery is 24kWh / 28kWh / 30kWh / 40kWh but if it is 60kWh you need faster charging. Bad call, Nissan.

+1

There is no way a 40 kWh can come with less then 6k6 AC charging

However much beyond that isn't useful as it can't be used at home

[Deleted User]

Anything is possible , I wouldn't believe anything until I can actually buy it.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Anything is possible , I wouldn't believe anything until I can actually buy it.

True , but I think we have enough correlated speculation to coalesce around the basics of the 2018 leaf.

[Deleted User]

Such as and from whom ? until I hear it from Nissan Motor Co themselves I don't believe it any more !

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Such as and from whom ? until I hear it from Nissan Motor Co themselves I don't believe it any more !

So if I relay directly what the leaf product manager in Nissan Ireland says are the primary features of the new leaf , you find that difficult to accept

( features that cros , recently agreed with )

We know for a fact the entry level will be a 40 kWh " usable " battery ( most likely the same pack as the Zoe )

We know it will be chademo

I agree with cross it will be type 2 AC

It will have driver aids

Charger size hasn't been released but is unlikely to be 3kw for

After that it's speculating on small details and of course the market price , that's the big unknown

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

+1

There is no way a 40 kWh can come with less then 6k6 AC charging

However much beyond that isn't useful as it can't be used at home

As far as I heard the onboard charger would be 11kW/16A three phase with a possible option of 22kW/32A (and some discussion that 22kW may be standard if commercial factors allow), so in markets where domestic three phase is common that's 11kW... It's just that the effect of single phase supply would be to limit people to 3.6kW at home.

BMW i3 buyers face the same issue. The single phase 7.4kW on-board charger was replaced with an 11kW three-phase when the new 34kWh battery came out. And now single phase home charging is limited to 3.6kW/16A.

And Tesla have a similar situation where their standard charger on anything below a 100kWh pack is an 11kW three-phase. The 100kWh comes with a 16.4kW three-phase charger that can pull ~5.5kW/24A from a single phase supply.

grogi

cros13 wrote: »

As far as I heard the onboard charger would be 11kW/16A three phase with a possible option of 22kW/32A (and some discussion that 22kW may be standard if commercial factors allow), so in markets where domestic three phase is common that's 11kW... It's just that the effect of single phase supply would be to limit people to 3.6kW at home.

BMW i3 buyers face the same issue. The single phase 7.4kW on-board charger was replaced with an 11kW three-phase when the new 34kWh battery came out. And now single phase home charging is limited to 3.6kW/16A.

And Tesla have a similar situation where their standard charger on anything below a 100kWh pack is an 11kW three-phase. The 100kWh comes with a 16.4kW three-phase charger that can pull ~5.5kW/24A from a single phase supply.

Again, my electro-technical knowledge is limited...

Would it be possible to power all three phase terminals in the charger by the same live cable from one-phase supply? It probably depends if the charger is powered by cross-phase voltage (2) or phase-neutral (1)...

I guess that because it is possible to power it only with one phase, the option 1 is applied and one could do something like that. In Ireland one phase supplies are capable of handling 32A on one phase. But again - ain't no expert...

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

It's going to be 3-phase charging as standard (probably 11kW) so on your single phase home chargepoint it will work at 3.6kW. Possibility of a higher charging rate as an option or standard but I don't have definite info on that.

cant see the point of that , are you saying there will be no single phase 32A option .

I was told the car will be standard with a 6K ( circa) charger

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

As far as I heard the onboard charger would be 11kW/16A three phase with a possible option of 22kW/32A (and some discussion that 22kW may be standard if commercial factors allow), so in markets where domestic three phase is common that's 11kW... It's just that the effect of single phase supply would be to limit people to 3.6kW at home.

BMW i3 buyers face the same issue. The single phase 7.4kW on-board charger was replaced with an 11kW three-phase when the new 34kWh battery came out. And now single phase home charging is limited to 3.6kW/16A.

And Tesla have a similar situation where their standard charger on anything below a 100kWh pack is an 11kW three-phase. The 100kWh comes with a 16.4kW three-phase charger that can pull ~5.5kW/24A from a single phase supply.

forcing me back to 16A in a larger battery format , would completely and utterly discourage me from buying the car .

its a nonsense step

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

forcing me back to 16A in a larger battery format , would completely and utterly discourage me from buying the car .

its a nonsense step

I disagree, even if it ends up being 16A this new charger would still charge slightly faster than the base 15A 3.3kW charger in the current Leaf... and that meets the home charging needs of most people.
Out and about on ESB's Type 2 network they'd charge more than three times faster. And in important markets for Nissan like Germany, domestic/light commercial three phase is more common.

If the 32A is an option (or hopefully standard)... again it's 10% more power on a 32A single phase chargepoint than the 6.6kW and more than three times faster than that from a 22kW post.

It's a win-win from my perspective. I don't think the battery capacity enters into this except for a few edge cases where you gain the new option of installing three-phase where you were SOL (or looking at €6k+ for a 22kW chademo DC charger) with the current Leaf.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

in markets where domestic three phase is common

What markets are they? I can think of Germany, where it is not uncommon, but I'm not even sure how many people have it and, for the people that don't, how expensive it is to upgrade their home supply. And for that matter, how much is it to upgrade your supply here? And is there an increased standing charge after?

Mope

I am not sure, but I think Lithuania has three phase in houses/flats. Our cookers usually connected with this massive plug.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

What markets are they? I can think of Germany, where it is not uncommon, but I'm not even sure how many people have it and, for the people that don't, how expensive it is to upgrade their home supply. And for that matter, how much is it to upgrade your supply here? And is there an increased standing charge after?

Majority of them actually...

It is UK and Ireland that have massive 1-phase supplies, like 63A or 80A. But in Poland everyone that has electric hob has 3-phase, you will struggle to find one phase with more than 25A.

unkel

That's interesting. Obviously if you have electric hob / electric kettle / electric shower etc. even a bloody hoover, you'd need more than 25A! Maybe for a separate thread but are we all going to be 3 phase here at some point? I mean if you need 2 cars charging at 32A at the same time and you have an electric shower, etc. Maybe even 80A on single phase is pushing it?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That's interesting. Obviously if you have electric hob / electric kettle / electric shower etc. even a bloody hoover, you'd need more than 25A! Maybe for a separate thread but are we all going to be 3 phase here at some point? I mean if you need 2 cars charging at 32A at the same time and you have an electric shower, etc. Maybe even 80A on single phase is pushing it?

You can go over 100A on single phase in Ireland.

I cant see a widespread change to 3-phase anytime soon in Ireland. The cost-benefit analysis wouldn't add up for ESBn I'd say, and its the consumer would have to pay for the change anyway so a bit like the charging for charging thread.... be careful what you wish for!

If you have two EV's you can get two EVSE's to load share the available power. It is more than do-able on single phase.

EDIT: Here is cros13's post on the dual Tesla EVSE solution where you can "dial-in" the max amps you want to allow the pair to dispense and they figure it out between them what to give each car.... cool solution...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102576324&postcount=8

grogi

unkel wrote: »

That's interesting. Obviously if you have electric hob / electric kettle / electric shower etc. even a bloody hoover, you'd need more than 25A! Maybe for a separate thread but are we all going to be 3 phase here at some point? I mean if you need 2 cars charging at 32A at the same time and you have an electric shower, etc. Maybe even 80A on single phase is pushing it?

3-phase for public in Ireland? There was a thread about that some time ago - short answer is NO.

KCross

grogi wrote: »

3-phase for public in Ireland? There was a thread about that some time ago - short answer is NO.

Well, anyone can have it if they wish. You simply have to pay for it and its usually thousands.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

Well, anyone can have it if they wish. You simply have to pay for it and its usually thousands.

Can a device like PowerWall or alike provide 3-phase supply? Charge it with 1-phase, discharge on three? It has to do DC-AC conversion anyway...

aliveandkicking

cros13 wrote: »

As far as I heard the onboard charger would be 11kW/16A three phase with a possible option of 22kW/32A (and some discussion that 22kW may be standard if commercial factors allow), so in markets where domestic three phase is common that's 11kW... It's just that the effect of single phase supply would be to limit people to 3.6kW at home.

BMW i3 buyers face the same issue. The single phase 7.4kW on-board charger was replaced with an 11kW three-phase when the new 34kWh battery came out. And now single phase home charging is limited to 3.6kW/16A.

And Tesla have a similar situation where their standard charger on anything below a 100kWh pack is an 11kW three-phase. The 100kWh comes with a 16.4kW three-phase charger that can pull ~5.5kW/24A from a single phase supply.

If the new Leaf ends up coming with 22kW as standard it means all those SCPs around the country will become a hell of a lot more useful to those with the new car.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

I disagree, even if it ends up being 16A this new charger would still charge slightly faster than the base 15A 3.3kW charger in the current Leaf... and that meets the home charging needs of most people.
Out and about on ESB's Type 2 network they'd charge more than three times faster. And in important markets for Nissan like Germany, domestic/light commercial three phase is more common.

If the 32A is an option (or hopefully standard)... again it's 10% more power on a 32A single phase chargepoint than the 6.6kW and more than three times faster than that from a 22kW post.

It's a win-win from my perspective. I don't think the battery capacity enters into this except for a few edge cases where you gain the new option of installing three-phase where you were SOL (or looking at €6k+ for a 22kW chademo DC charger) with the current Leaf.

sorry cross, given the mileage we are doing , we need to charge within the night rate period , ( less 1 hour) , at 16A and 40+kwh, thats not possible

That a no-buy for me. it would be a disaster and suggesting the SCP network is an alternative is a joke

There is also no technical reason why a 3 phase AC powered dc charger cant combine two channels to create a single phase charger with a combined 2 channel single phase charger

cros13

grogi wrote: »

Can a device like PowerWall or alike provide 3-phase supply? Charge it with 1-phase, discharge on three? It has to do DC-AC conversion anyway...

You could do three phase with the DC powerwall and a three phase inverter... though you require an islanding inverter. You'd charge with a single phase inverter hooked to one of the DC inputs of the islanding inverter. Though it's a little more complicated and no longer possible as the DC powerwall is being discontinued. There would be no connection between your single phase supply and your three-phase loads other than through the DC input of the 3P inverter.
The powerwall 2 AC requires you to install one powerwall per phase in three-phase installs and won't operate when the three phase grid is disconnected.

What's more likely in the future is that you'd be able to DC charge at home directly from the powerwalls, they are usually a similar voltage to the cars...

grogi wrote: »

3-phase for public in Ireland? There was a thread about that some time ago - short answer is NO.

I'd like to see better single phase supplies as standard. The standard connection in the UK for example is 23kVA vs our 12kVA.

BoatMad wrote: »

sorry cross, given the mileage we are doing , we need to charge within the night rate period , ( less 1 hour) , at 16A and 40+kwh, thats not possible

That a no-buy for me. it would be a disaster and suggesting the SCP network is an alternative is a joke

There is also no technical reason why a 3 phase AC powered dc charger cant combine two channels to create a single phase charger with a combined 2 channel single phase charger

Sure, but then you'd probably buy the 3P 32A option and charge at 7kW... It's not like 11kW single phase 48A charging would be workable for the majority given our MICs.

BoatMad

Sure, but then you'd probably buy the 3P 32A option and charge at 7kW... It's not like 11kW single phase 48A charging would be workable for the majority given our MICs.

my current 32A EVSE is good to 60 Kwh within night rates . I see no reason why Im forced ( by Nissan ) to either install 3P ( and huge costs , and actually very difficult where I am ) or to degrade my single phase charging to 16A

I cant see 2018 Leaf replying 3Kw single phase charging , its madness, Leaf is already being tramped by the 7kw charging Ioniq, that decision would double the " meh" factor of the 2018 Leaf , A worry I seriously think is now a real risk.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Can a device like PowerWall or alike provide 3-phase supply? Charge it with 1-phase, discharge on three? It has to do DC-AC conversion anyway...

you could easily do single phase AC to 3 phase conversion , whether you are " tied-in" or not, though you have conversion efficiencies losses and such converts are pricey ( at high powers)