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Child Item

I don't know what I'm doing

kt75

Long story. I was sexually abused as a child. My teenage years were very lonely. I had no friends and hardly left my room except to go to school. I always felt ugly awkward and unwanted. I was late getting into the whole dating game. First kiss at 22. 24 when I had my first boyfriend. I was a virgin and he raped me. All very painful. So I withdrew into myself and became a bit of a hermit. For over ten years I spent most of my time at home only really going out to go to work. I'd go out on the odd night out with people at work but that was it. So my experience of men dating and relationships was extremely limited.

A few years ago someone at work was doing online dating and I thought I'd give it a go. Just to get out of the house. I met this guy who wanted a friends with benefits scenario and I went along with it even though I liked him and wanted more. I was in my late thirties at this point and he was really the first person was with consentually. It went on for about six months. He wasnt very reliable. He'd cancel arrangements constantly, usually at the last minute. It got to a stage where I almost expected it. I ended up lending him a lot of money that I never saw again. The only times I could be sure of him turning up was when he needed to borrow off me. In the end he disappeared - stopped calling, ignored my messages.

I gave it a break for a while and tried it again.

The second guy I met seemed really nice. We went out a few times and got along really well. He said he wanted a relationship with me and made a few promises that seemed really good to me. We slept together. He told me by text after I got home from his house that he wasn't in a position where he could commit to a relationship. He was too busy with work and study and could we keep it casual. I said ok then he disappeared. Stopped contacting me and ignoring my messages.

It seems I'm a glutton for punishment because after a while I was bored and lonely and tried it again. I met someone who I was with for over a year. We talked about marriage family I was so happy. Then he started messing me around. He wouldnt introduce me to his friends or family although he met mine. He cancelled plans at the last minute, wasn't able to meet up for weeks at a time he said because of work. Texting me at 1 in the morning and telling me I didn't love him if I didn't get out of bed and go round to his house. I ended it after not having seen him for 3 weeks after he cancelled arrangements repeatedly. It turned out all his excuses about work were lies and he had another girlfriend.

In between him and the guy before I dated a few other people I met online. They all seemed nice and said all the right things but disappeared too..stopped messaging. Ignoring any messages I sent.

So by now I'd given up on the whole thing and I just met this guy by chance a while ago. He's been very nice to me. He treats me very well. He says he wants a long term relationship and sees a future for us. I really like him. He's good company and there's a spark there I've never felt before. The problem is I'm terrified. An actual mess. When I haven't heard from him in a while I start to get a sick feeling that he is going to disappear like all the rest. I panic that he's going to lose interest and dump me. I cant really understand what he sees in me. I'm trying to be sensible and take it slowly. I keep my insecurities well hidden from him. It's easy when we're together because I feel so happy and I can relax. It's when we're apart I'm in bits. I actually got to a point the other day where I nearly broke it off because I was so afraid he was going to end up hurting me. I was so close to doing it. I had it all planned what I was going to say but I couldn't go through with it.

What do I do? I'm afraid that Im going to ruin it by either getting too clingy or dumping him in a panic. On the other hand I'm afraid he's just going to disappear on me and end up hurting me. I cant understand what he sees in me. But he's been nothing but good to me. I just cant believe my luck would change now all of a sudden. I spent ten years alone and I was ok. I functioned. Now I'm just a pathetic mess. I've had counselling before and it didn't really help. I really can't afford it right now anyway.

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SimpleDimples

You really have been through the mill in terms of your past.

But on a positive note, you have survived so much so you must be a very strong person.

You've survived so much, you can easily survive a break up if it does happen but don't risk ruining a positive relationship because of fear.

If this relationship continues, it could be great. If it doesn't, you know you have dealt with a lot worse than a break up. Take comfort from that and don't let a bad past potentially run a good future.

Lycoge

I would consider talking to him and explaining where you're at. Divulge as much or as little as you're comfertable to at this stage, but do share your worries and that they're coming from previous relationships. It's a worry that stems from how things have worked out for you in the past as you've been hurt before. But not all relationships are like your previous ones and you can be happy.
Communication is the foundation of a relationship and keeping all your fears to yourself will do nothing to ease those fears. If he knows of them, he may reassure you that there's nothing to fear. If nothing else, you'll be able to stop hiding how you're really feeling and that stressor will be removed for you. It doesn't help to keep things bottled up, as you said you're finding that very difficult already.

It may also be worth reconsidering counselling with a different therapist. You may gain more from counselling now than you did the first time. There are free options available out there.

It sounds so clichÃ©d, I know, but it's good to talk. Talk to your boyfriend, and do consider talking to a professional.

Best of luck

Frogscotch

You are amazing to put yourself out there and you're obviously a likeable, attractive person. I agree with the last reply - why not try revealing some of your insecurities instead of keeping them hidden? It could be the making of your relationship. Do you have girl friends you can talk to?

Mr McBoatface

You're probably over thinking. The terrible events you lived through and you're dating experience are not related.

Dating especially online dating can be a crap.... Doesn't matter about you life experiences, many people on here would have the same experience from dating as you. It's nothing to do with your past just the way dating can be (unfortunately)

I'm not trying to be harsh here but if you stop thinking of yourself as a victim or survivor and start thinking of yourself as others might see you then maybe your confidence will grow.

Not an easy task but you can do it

Hannibal_Smith

Chances are you do know what you're doing, but you don't realise. You can see a mile off that someone is being hurtful towards you, but there's something telling you, Jees this can't be happening again. And you fool yourself into ignoring the signs. You could also be ignoring the signs, because when things are good its nice to have some pieces of good and the fantasy is stopping you accepting reality.

In this relationship, it's hard to know. There are no signs that anything is up, but equally how do you trust anyone? Fact is no one knows and most people have their guard up in the early stages. Maybe the next time you feel a knee jerk reaction coming on, turn off your phone and don't turn it back on until the impulse to lash out passes. If you feel that he's going to break up with you and you want to get their first, instead of panicking maybe think, if he did break up with me, what's the worst that can happen? Does it change you, or your life dramatically? Don't be afraid to lose him because that will make you hang on tighter and that's where the knee jerk reactions come out.

It's hard to see the good in yourself at the best of times but it's particularly hard when youve been through all that you have. But the point is that, rather than excusing any negative behaviour that you might bring to the relationship because if your past, you're realising it and trying to learn to deal with it. That says a hell of a lot about you.

I hope things work out for you in the best way they can.

kt75

Lycoge wrote: »

I would consider talking to him and explaining where you're at. Divulge as much or as little as you're comfertable to at this stage, but do share your worries and that they're coming from previous relationships. It's a worry that stems from how things have worked out for you in the past as you've been hurt before. But not all relationships are like your previous ones and you can be happy.

Thanks. I've been stressing today and yesterday because he's been a bit quiet and not texting and phoning like he usually does. I texted him a couple of times and he didnt reply at all which is unusual for him. I stayed over in his place on Thursday and everything seemed great. So I sent him a message earlier this evening. I didn't say too much just that I've been let down and ghosted a lot in the past and that it's left me a bit insecure. He got the message and its been read but he hasn't replied. Normally he rings at night before he goes to bed but he didnt tonight. So I think the same thing had happened all over again.

I feel like I've been kicked in the stomach. I just had a feeling he was different. All the things he said about being in it for the long haul and thinking there was something special between us were just horsesh1t apparently. I think I'm just done with the whole relationship dating thing now. It's too painful. Its easier just to be alone.

kt75

I spent the whole day fighting the urge to text him. When I got home he sent a text telling me I needed to get my snoring sorted out that it was very bad and kept him awake last time I stayed over. He didn't say anything else. I was mortified. He never mentioned the text I sent him yesterday about my past or having not returned my messages yesterday. I sent him a message back asking him something and he didn't reply. I sent another and he ignored that one too. So I'm a bit confused and not sure what's going on.

Lycoge

You can't communicate properly by text when there's an issue or a perceived issue. A phone call from you and suggesting meeting up is the way to go. You'll have your answers quickly that way, a lot more quickly than sending texts and waiting for replies, then getting replies that don't directly answer your questions. The text about your snoring is an odd one taken on its own and it could mean anything, could be related or not to why contact has been limited in recent days. If things are OK, a meet up won't be a problem, if things are not ok (ie he tells you that on the phone) and/or snoring is the issue (seems comical, but who knows as all you have is the text), then you'll know at that point and a conversation can take place about that. If there's no answer, leave it be, he'll either get in touch or he won't. Frustrating situation for you but from an outsider's perspective you can take the bull by the horns (call) or step back. Texting is only leaving you in limbo really.

Frogscotch

How rude - sort out your snoring by text!! You deserve better than this.

Hannibal_Smith

I bet he says he never got the texts.

sozbox

kt75 wrote: »

I spent the whole day fighting the urge to text him. When I got home he sent a text telling me I needed to get my snoring sorted out that it was very bad and kept him awake last time I stayed over. He didn't say anything else. I was mortified. He never mentioned the text I sent him yesterday about my past or having not returned my messages yesterday. I sent him a message back asking him something and he didn't reply. I sent another and he ignored that one too. So I'm a bit confused and not sure what's going on.

That sounds like a really cruel thing to say. Especially when he has been ignoring you. People are never too busy, they always find time to text if they are interested.

I don't mean this is in a harsh way but I've seen men sense a lack of self respect in women and treat them accordingly. Don't allow yourself to be treated the way, you know you deserve better. I'd cut off contact if I were you and work on yourself.

kt75

I got him on the phone. The walls in his apartment are very thin, it's really only an extension the landlord put on the side of his house and it seems you can hear everything that goes on. Apparently the landlord had words with him about the noise in his room the night I stayed. They ended up having a row and now he's given his notice and has left and is staying with family.

He says he can't see me for at least the next few weeks until he gets a new place sorted for himself because we'd have nowhere to stay. He's an hour's drive from me and he can't stay with me because of my living arrangements, and so we're "on hold" he says. I was in tears on the phone but I don't think he was able to tell.

Tigger99

Mmm he's laying a lot of blame at your door. He sounds very hot headed to have a row with his landlord over you snoring. Sounds like there's background there. Also there's ways of saying that to you. He doesn't sound very sensitive at all.

I really think you need to be by yourself for a while until your head is in a better place. You are attracting guys that aren't nice to you. You are the common denominator and only you can change that.

Hannibal_Smith

How long have you been seeing this guy for?

If he says he can't see you AT ALL for a few weeks because he has to find somewhere to live all due to you snoring at his place, cut your losses. Seriously. Its not worth it.

Don't go rushing into something new. Enjoy time by yourself.

rainbowtrout

That all sounds like a very convenient excuse. To be honest it sounds like a cowardly way of breaking up with you without calling it that. In a few weeks time, it'll turn into 'I haven't found anywhere to live yet' until it just fades away.

kt75

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

How long have you been seeing this guy for?

Not long. Just a few months

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

If he says he can't see you AT ALL for a few weeks because he has to find somewhere to live all due to you snoring at his place, cut your losses. Seriously. Its not worth it.

I was that upset I couldn't really say much to him. I knew the walls were thin. We would always have to keep our voices down, and you could hear them walking around but I never knew my snoring was that bad. What's upsetting me most is that he doesn't want to see me because we haven't got somewhere to stay. Like even if I can't spend the night he doesn't seem to think it's worth it going out during the day somewhere and doing something.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In a few weeks time, it'll turn into 'I haven't found anywhere to live yet' until it just fades away.

I was worrying that would happen. He keeps saying how hard it is to find places to rent and I know it is, so how long is he going to be living with his family. So will he not want to meet up if he's living with them? I don't know if he's even told them about me yet.

leggo

For all you know, it was him snoring and he's just trying to blame you because he's gotten in a mess and can't take responsibility. All of his story sounds like total BS tbh.

Emme

Cut your losses with this man, he's making excuses. Online dating is tough and there are a lot of messers on it. People who haven't been through what you have find it difficult and if you are anyway vulnerable it can drag you down even more.

You need to stop dating for a while and talk to somebody professional to help you through what happened in the past and your dating experiences. Have you had counselling for the child abuse and the rape when you were in your 20s?

You should also get out and meet people on a platonic basis through clubs and meetup groups. Make friends of both genders and enjoy their company in a relaxed no-pressure environment.

amtc

Do you know for sure that he's moved out? This all sounds very convenient as a way of moving you out of his life...so you won't go to where he lives etc.

I'd echo the part where there are people who can somehow sense vulnerability. You may have been good at hiding it but you shouldn't have to hide from someone real.

Also...and I know why you do this in setting the scene, but for your own sake I would guard against reciting your 'story' from the start. It was a couple of paras in before we even got to the new bf issue. In your own mind this means you are recycling old issues. This is very understandable but you have to view this situation in isolation. Imagine a good friend was telling it to you.

As well I agree...what's the issue in going out for a day...going away for a night?

kt75

Emme wrote: »

Have you had counselling for the child abuse and the rape when you were in your 20s?

I had a small bit of counselling through the HSE years ago and I went to Pieta House before. The HSE one I didn't really get much out of it. I didn't really know how it worked. She usually just asked what I wanted to talk about that day and I never really knew what to say. I thought she would ask questions or something. There were a lot of awkward silences and me waffling to fill them.
With Pieta House I found them brilliant. I probably wouldnt be here without them, but they're crisis counsellors so they tell you to try not to go into the past too much.

Emme wrote: »

You should also get out and meet people on a platonic basis through clubs and meetup groups. Make friends of both genders and enjoy their company in a relaxed no-pressure environment.

I've always found making friends difficult. I generally get on well with people, but it never seems to go beyond general chatting. At school and college and even in work when people were making groups of friends I always seemed to be left on the edges of them. Loads of acquaintances but no real friends. People are usually very nice and friendly with me and chat but when it goes further like making plans to meet up I was always left out of it.

amtc wrote: »

Also...and I know why you do this in setting the scene, but for your own sake I would guard against reciting your 'story' from the start. It was a couple of paras in before we even got to the new bf issue. In your own mind this means you are recycling old issues. This is very understandable but you have to view this situation in isolation. Imagine a good friend was telling it to you.

I think part of my head is always back in the past. It has tainted everything in my life since. I feel like it has affected everything. It feels like every relationship I've had with men is influenced by it. It feels like they've always taken something from me or used me and left me feeling even worse about myself than before. I'm not saying it's them. It must be something I'm doing because it always ends up the same. I've lived a very solitary life as a result. I feel sometimes like people don't even see me.

blacklilly

kt75 wrote: »

I think part of my head is always back in the past. It has tainted everything in my life since. I feel like it has affected everything. It feels like every relationship I've had with men is influenced by it. It feels like they've always taken something from me or used me and left me feeling even worse about myself than before. I'm not saying it's them. It must be something I'm doing because it always ends up the same. I've lived a very solitary life as a result. I feel sometimes like people don't even see me.

This really resonated me OP.
Unfortunately due to the abuse you experienced as a young child, your relationships will be effected until you try to properly process and deal with the traumatic events in your past. It's not an easy road and takes a lot of time and commitment from you to fully deal with it but if you don't, you risk repeating the same scenarios you are currently experiencing with men. I'm in no way saying this is your fault but we all have learned behavior characteristics.
A lot of victims of abuse say they feel invisible/that no one notices them and many times this is due to them being/feeling invisible/not helped when they were being subjected to the abuse. I would strongly suggest you seek further counseling and forget about this man. You deserve a hell of a lot better. Put you first and everything else will fall into place

kt75

I've been thinking about more counselling for a while. I've been on heavy medication the last few years that stabilised my mood but I've never really been what you could call properly happy apart from a few times that haven't lasted too long. So though I've no symptoms of depression anymore the underlying cause is probably still there. It'll have to wait a while till I can afford it though.

I was so young when the abuse started that I'm not even sure what age I was but I know it was before I started school. So I have no memories of a time when it hadn't happened. And then with what happened when I was on my twenties I kind of feel that's really all that life has for me.

I think you're right and I do need forget him. Up until Friday I thought everything was great. Then I felt there was a change in him. I felt a kind of distance from him. He's going away for a couple of days with his friends and I texted him to say goodbye and he never replied even though he said he'd ring me before he left. I can't believe how quickly he's changed.

amtc

I really do feel for you.

Listen to be blunt this guy is gone. Forget him...easier said than done! He's done it a sneaky way. A coward's way. He just hopes you'll realise it. So he's able to head off with his friends but can't take you out for a night! From your username and story, we're about the same age. Please think more of yourself.

Now you're going to have to heal the main underlying issue. I did counselling...bizarrely because someone didn't abuse me but did everyone else I knew. This is the most stupid thing to admit but I felt really rejected. My best friend now remembers me years ago (we lost touch for years) as constantly seeking male attention and hence not being a good friend.

I found investing in CBT really good. I treated it like a course...homework...six weeks and done. I know it sounds really bizarre to do it for not being abused...and I'm not a stupid woman...i have a first class degree and masters...but this was a way of my mind making sense of it.

It worked. I don't project being vulnerable. There are men who prey on this. There are equally men who will love and honour you

Maximus Alexander

I really feel for you, it sounds like you've had the worst possible experiences with relationships one after the other, and this latest chap doesn't sound like he's worth your time either. Obviously I don't know the whole story, but based on the above would I reckon it would be enough for most people to give him two fingers, but you seem to lack the confidence or self-worth to realise that.

As others have said I think counselling could be a great benefit to you. Try and get a recommendation if you can, and commit to going for a while. It can really help when it comes to processing your experiences and helping you look at them from a different angle. Or understanding how things in your past are influencing your present day behaviour and allowing you to change that. A good counsellor will teach you how to put yourself first and learn to value yourself a bit more too. Hopefully an outcome of that would be that you get better at recognising people who aren't worth your time. With your history it shouldn't be surprising that you have trouble with relationships, and there's certainly no shame in looking for a bit of help from an experienced professional!

If you go to a counsellor and you find they're not really helping you, then don't be afraid to ditch them and find another one. Like anything, some are better than others.

Tiddlypeeps

kt75 wrote: »

I've always found making friends difficult. I generally get on well with people, but it never seems to go beyond general chatting. At school and college and even in work when people were making groups of friends I always seemed to be left on the edges of them. Loads of acquaintances but no real friends. People are usually very nice and friendly with me and chat but when it goes further like making plans to meet up I was always left out of it.

I feel like you just described my history with making friends. A series of sessions with a psychologist helped me realise that I was the one keeping people at arms length. I felt like I had no friends, just lots of acquaintances, but they helped me see that I actually had a lot of friends, I just needed to stop keeping them at arms length and stop treating them like acquaintances. I never invited people out to do things I wanted to do, because of low self esteem I would just assume nobody wanted to spend time with me and because of fear of rejection I would never set up scenarios that could prove that point correct. If people were making plans to do things around me I would just quietly hope to be invited instead of just asking if I can join.

It wasn't easy but letting go of that fear of rejection and the idea that people wouldn't want to spend time with me, but when I did I felt like I had formed much closer relationships with people.

Your scenario could be totally different, just that bit in particular resonated with me so thought I'd share my experience. I highly recommend talking to someone either way, I found CBT particularly helpful because it's main focus is how to move forward and not as much dwelling on the past. It's good to understand why we do what we do by looking back, but the most important thing is to find healthy and practical ways to move forward and I found CBT particularly good for that.

Your self esteem sounds like your biggest problem and it's going to be very hard to have a healthy romantic relationship till you deal with that. So I'd recommend avoiding relationships for now until you find a way to tackle your self worth.

kt75

amtc wrote: »

Listen to be blunt this guy is gone. Forget him...easier said than done! He's done it a sneaky way. A coward's way. He just hopes you'll realise it. So he's able to head off with his friends but can't take you out for a night!

To be honest I'm gutted but I'm not really shocked, it's the kind of thing I've come to expect over the last few years. It's the way it has always turned out for me. What I can't understand why he would fill my head with all the things he said, like he only wanted long term, feeling a connection and there being something special that he'd never felt before. Maybe I'm just very naive but it seems like a horrible thing to do to just to get someone into bed if that's all you're really looking for. And while I can imagine there are some people who would do that it always seems to be the ones I end up with and I honestly thought better of him. I completely let my guard down. I also can't understand why he continued it right up until last Friday night when he seemed to suddenly lose interest.

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Obviously I don't know the whole story, but based on the above would I reckon it would be enough for most people to give him two fingers, but you seem to lack the confidence or self-worth to realise that.

My mother used to always give out that I let people walk all over me. I've never had it in me to stand up for myself. I think she sees it as a lack of a backbone.
I don't tell her very much about my life, I'm very guarded in that respect. But even with this bloke from the scarce bit of information she had she said she didn't like the sound of it. That because I did all the driving down to him it seemed very one-sided. I don't pick up on things like that and just thought it was easier because he doesn't drive. But then she is the complete opposite of me. Very cynical about peoples motives and doesn't take crap from anybody. I seem to just take what ever scraps people are willing to give me and be grateful.

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I never invited people out to do things I wanted to do, because of low self esteem I would just assume nobody wanted to spend time with me and because of fear of rejection I would never set up scenarios that could prove that point correct. If people were making plans to do things around me I would just quietly hope to be invited instead of just asking if I can join.

That sounds a lot like me. Ill look into CBT.
To be honest I think I'm done with men. The last few days have been some of the most painful I have experienced in a long time and have left me completely drained.

Hannibal_Smith

I have a similar history to yours op. Abused as a child and trusting the wrong people. The problem is because it happens at such a young age, it's impossible to separate your genuine characteristics from those brought on by the abuse. Luckily enough I found my husband at an early age but friendship wise just have made some humdinger mistakes.

I never 'dealt' with mine and never talk about it, so if I tell someone its because I genuinely think they can help or because I trust them. Each and every person I've told turned out to be the wrong person. The warning signs were there but I ignored them and it happened a few times that I was let down. I was convinced they had my best interests at heart and almost tried so hard to ignore the warning signs that I over invested in the friendship almost as compensation. I have never found that friend who could take it onboard or who kept my trust.

Now I know I am right in keeping people at arms length because I'm not the good judge of character I thought I was and it's not worth the hassle. I get on with people and have a laugh, but I have enough people in my life and I will let no more in and the people I have know their boundaries.

I'm not the best person to advise counseling wise. But if you think it will help, give it a go. But personally I see no harm in keeping your guard up.

kt75

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Now I know I am right in keeping people at arms length because I'm not the good judge of character I thought I was and it's not worth the hassle. I get on with people and have a laugh, but I have enough people in my life and I will let no more in and the people I have know their boundaries.

I always thought growing up and as an adult that the reason I didn't have friends was because no one was interested in being friends with me because there was something wrong with me. Ive never considered that it was something I was doing keeping people away.

I haven't really got that many people on my life. My family is very small and I've always kept them at a distance and been very aloof with them. I don't tell them anything and there's no one I really confide in. I can honestly say 100% confidently that there isn't one person in the world who really knows me. Ive actually written more on here today to strangers than I've said to anyone Ive known all my life.

SimpleDimples

I'm sorry to hear how things worked out but think you are better off without him.

I've no real advice but you sound like a very strong, intelligent, articulate, generous person. Based on how you come across in your posts, I'm sure you could develop many friendships of you let people in.

Given that you are so well able to articulate your feelings, CBT would work wonders for you. It might work wonders for you.

Best of luck.

Hannibal_Smith

kt75 wrote: »

I always thought growing up and as an adult that the reason I didn't have friends was because no one was interested in being friends with me because there was something wrong with me. Ive never considered that it was something I was doing keeping people away.

I haven't really got that many people on my life. My family is very small and I've always kept them at a distance and been very aloof with them. I don't tell them anything and there's no one I really confide in. I can honestly say 100% confidently that there isn't one person in the world who really knows me. Ive actually written more on here today to strangers than I've said to anyone Ive known all my life.

I can understand that. It's for sure not because no one's interested. I don't believe there's any person alive who doesn't have someone who's interested. But, and I may be projecting some of my own thoughts on to you so sorry if I am, I think when you go through something like sexual abuse there will be a part of time where you keep it to yourself and i think that time is the key. You feel different to everyone else and so can't connect and you're used to keeping yourself to yourself. Rather than pushing people a way as such, you isolate yourself away. You probably take a step back from people and watch them without realising you're doing it and this is probably at the start of friendships when bonds are formed and that's what is missed out on.

So then you come to a $$holes who spin you a yarn and its so tiring keeping yourself to yourself, sure what harm could it do just giving in and trusting someone who seems genuine. I know what it's like to get your judgment impaired and to feel like you're somehow attracting these events. But it's just such a hard thing to do to find a genuine person to trust. You're caught in a catch 22 between wanting to keep your guard up, but equally not wanting to miss out on something special..

I wish I could tell you how to fix it, but I'm still learning myself. I think most people are tbh. But there's nothing wrong with you and if I were you I would work with the people already in your life and try to strengthen a bond with them. I think that might give a foundation of sorts.