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2018 Leaf

BoatMad

Had it confirmed by Nissan Ireland , 2018 leaf will debut with 40 kWh battery !

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Calahonda52

unkel wrote: »

I'm not sure how so many people here came to the conclusion that I think my Ioniq is an awesome car. The Hyundai Ioniq EV is a budget family size hatchback from Korea. It looks like it was made in Korea. It feels like it was made in Korea. It drives like it was made in Korea. Front wheel drive (which is not what a keen driver would want). Nothing special there. And particularly not for someone like myself being used to far superior cars (mainly from Germany) that are better in every way. Over the past 20 years I've owned many BMWs and Porsches. Now they are awesome cars.

I bought the Ioniq as our family car as it is very good value for money, it is (in my mind) by far the best proposition for an electric car available today. I paid €25k all in, on the road incl. metallic paint and I had a free home charge point installed. So far the car has done 1400km and it has cost me €0.40 in electricity. The Ioniq is a very well specced car too. And it is the first EV car of its size and budget to have a reasonable range (200-300km)

꿈의 필드, 필요에 따라 수분 함량:D

goz83

unkel wrote: »

I'm not sure how so many people here came to the conclusion that I think my Ioniq is an awesome car. The Hyundai Ioniq EV is a budget family size hatchback from Korea. It looks like it was made in Korea. It feels like it was made in Korea. It drives like it was made in Korea. Front wheel drive (which is not what a keen driver would want). Nothing special there. And particularly not for someone like myself being used to far superior cars (mainly from Germany) that are better in every way. Over the past 20 years I've owned many BMWs and Porsches. Now they are awesome cars.

I bought the Ioniq as our family car as it is very good value for money, it is (in my mind) by far the best proposition for an electric car available today. I paid €25k all in, on the road incl. metallic paint and I had a free home charge point installed. So far the car has done 1400km and it has cost me €0.40 in electricity. The Ioniq is a very well specced car too. And it is the first EV car of its size and budget to have a reasonable range (200-300km)

You're just regretting not going for a black one

Orebro

unkel wrote: »

So far the car has done 1400km and it has cost me €0.40 in electricity.

That's why I think it's awesome right there ðŸ˜

Seriously though - it's a great thing for what it is. I think the best of both worlds is to have one of these for during the week, and a huge gas guzzling V8 in the garage on classic tax for the Sunday cruises.

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

I'm not sure how so many people here came to the conclusion that I think my Ioniq is an awesome car.

Well it's obviously something you're putting out there seeing as "so many people" think it.

I've nothing against people living their cars....I'm loving my Leaf. But you do tend to harp on a bit about how good the Ioniq is, how it's "significantly faster" than the Leaf, how it's drag coefficient is the best in the world, how the new Leaf can't possibly be as good, calling Leaf owners out to do a comparison road trip like mope (?) did, yada yada.

I equate it to Mad Lad harping on about the Leaf back in the day. You don't want to be the Ioniq version of Mad Lad, do you?!

[Deleted User]

Well you see, back in the day there was really no other car like the Leaf so it deserved harping on about !

No doubt if I were buying new today I'd buy the Ioniq. I'd rather see lots of Ioniqs than TDI Golfs and a lot more leafs too for that matter.

unkel

Calahonda52 wrote: »

꿈의 필드, 필요에 따라 수분 함량:D

Dream field, moisture content as needed?

unkel

Aye lads all true. Forgive me that was a bit of a rant last night

n97 mini wrote: »

Unless you have a crystal ball or work at Nissan R&D you don't know what the next Leaf will be like. Facing increased competition Nissan has all the motives it needs to develop a more efficient car.

Btw you do take digs at the Leaf quite regularly.

I can only hope the next Leaf will be a great car. We need a lot more EVs for sale that are competent and reasonably good value for money. As most of you in this forum, I bought an EV for a number of reasons - to save money and to leave this place in a better state for our children being two of the more important ones.

I actually came close to buying a Leaf last year. I have a lot of respect for the Leaf but that said, it is on its last legs now and doesn't compare well to competition like the Ioniq. And I suppose I have mentioned that once or twice

I'm doing my best to spread the word about EVs but there's only so much any of us can do without more and better EVs on offer and the public (fast) charging situation has to improve radically too...

n97 mini

The CEO of Honda said " bring me the scalp of the GT-R" when the new NSX was in development.

I'd like to think something similar happened in Nissan re the Ioniq (and Model 3 maybe) with the new Leaf.

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

Aye lads all true. Forgive me that was a bit of a rant last night

I can only hope the next Leaf will be a great car. We need a lot more EVs for sale that are competent and reasonably good value for money. As most of you in this forum, I bought an EV for a number of reasons - to save money and to leave this place in a better state for our children being two of the more important ones.

I actually came close to buying a Leaf last year. I have a lot of respect for the Leaf but that said, it is on its last legs now and doesn't compare well to competition like the Ioniq. And I suppose I have mentioned that once or twice I'm doing my best to spread the word about EVs but there's only so much any of us can do without more and better EVs on offer and the public (fast) charging situation has to improve radically too...

Yera, no harm.

Like you said, we're all in it together.

We'll all have our Model 3s in a couple of years anyway....

BoatMad

by the way the Ioniq is 28 kWh usable , whi9ch suggest a 30-31 kWh actual battery

I was informed next Leaf will be 40 kWh usable , i.e. 44kWh , 60kWh is some time away as price point moves too much

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I was informed next Leaf will be 40 kWh usable , i.e. 44kWh

Would it need 4kWh in reserve? I didn't expect that the amount of reserve would have to go up in proportion to the battery size, particularly at the levels we are talking about... 30-60kWh.

Maybe at 100kWh you'd need a few more in reserve.

For a 40kWh, wouldn't the same 2kWh reserve be still enough to ensure the battery isn't ever at 100%... closer to 95% at max?

[Deleted User]

As battery tech improves there will not be a need to hold as much in reserve. Smaller batteries will be cycled a lot more than larger ones so greater stresses will be suffered and one way to reduce this is to prevent a full 100% charge or discharge because batteries are also stressed more the higher the state of charge (SOC) and the longer the battery stays at a very low and high SOC.

So if you get into the car at 100% and drive to the shop and plug in a 90-98% and charge again and this is frequent this isn't good for the battery long term. Nissan recommend not to charge until a minimum of about 80% charge for instance.

There other factors involved such as time itself and the amount of current applied or taken. And improvements to all of this will mean longer battery life and even small changes to all or even just cycle life alone will make a big difference.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Would it need 4kWh in reserve? I didn't expect that the amount of reserve would have to go up in proportion to the battery size, particularly at the levels we are talking about... 30-60kWh.

Maybe at 100kWh you'd need a few more in reserve.

For a 40kWh, wouldn't the same 2kWh reserve be still enough to ensure the battery isn't ever at 100%... closer to 95% at max?

The reason you have usable capacity , is because allowing a Li battery to be drawn down below approx 15 % requirs you to slow charge ( called a pre-qualifying charge ) and leaving Li at very low discharges has a very bad f effect on cycle life. Hence all uses of Li tend to avoid draining below about 15% ( or so )

Less headroom is needed at full charge , but again around 5% would be reserved , mainly as the 100% fully charged point on a Li charge curve is not terribly well defined.

Hence in long life applications, 20 % or there about cant be readily accessed.

As long as we remain with Li technologies this is likely to remain , some Li chemistries can be tweaked ( like LIFEPO4) so that more usable capacity can be extracted , but the penalty is less capacity per M2/Kg , which car companies at present don't like

Ultimately battery capacity will exceed user requirements and all this focus on batteries will disappear.

[Deleted User]

LiFeP04 has a lot more cycle life so you can afford to use a bit more of the available capacity. One of the good things about LiFeP04, my old Ebike battery now 6 years old still has over 90% capacity.

I agree, in time no one will care about battery life.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

As battery tech improves there will not be a need to hold as much in reserve. Smaller batteries will be cycled a lot more than larger ones so greater stresses will be suffered and one way to reduce this is to prevent a full 100% charge or discharge because batteries are also stressed more the higher the state of charge (SOC) and the longer the battery stays at a very low and high SOC.

So if you get into the car at 100% and drive to the shop and plug in a 90-98% and charge again and this is frequent this isn't good for the battery long term. Nissan recommend not to charge until a minimum of about 80% charge for instance.

There other factors involved such as time itself and the amount of current applied or taken. And improvements to all of this will mean longer battery life and even small changes to all or even just cycle life alone will make a big difference.

The changes will only occur if we move away from Li, ( and there are some promising alternatives , but are 10-15 years out to commercialisation )

Note on thev30 kWh , Nissan mention not to recharge from 95% ( can invalidate the battery warranty )

What's unclear, as be never tested it , for if you leave a leaf on an AC charger for days , on its timer , will the car restart a charge cycle , even if only briefly , hence self invalidating its own warranty !!!

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

LiFeP04 has a lot more cycle life so you can afford to use a bit more of the available capacity. One of the good things about LiFeP04, my old Ebike battery now 6 years old still has over 90% capacity.

I agree, in time no one will care about battery life.

The main reason you can extract a bit more is the need for a low current pre-qualifying charge on Li ferrous is somewhat reduced, so that the battery can be recharged at full power from a lower state of discharge then other forms of Li Poly

However given the lower capacity ( almost 20 % less over LiCo ) it has been deemed not suitable for current EVs.

[Deleted User]

I'm sure people have done that , people who have went on holidays.

It's a shame we can't have Nuclear batteries, one Nuclear battery alone is enough to heat and provide power to homes for years.

Imagine refuelling your car every decade lol.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure people have done that , people who have went on holidays.

It's a shame we can't have Nuclear batteries, one Nuclear battery alone is enough to heat and provide power to homes for years.

Imagine refuelling your car every decade lol.

Big issue with nuclear is its a heat engine , the resulting conversion to electricity is actually fairly horrific efficiency wise .

The future may be electric motors coupled to fuel cells. , but we are aways away

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

The future may be electric motors coupled to fuel cells. , but we are aways away

Really? Mirai is commercially available, isn't it?

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Really? Mirai is commercially available, isn't it?

Ha , not really in Germany it costs the bones of 80,000 Euro and there virtually no hydrogen supply points

It will be decades ( if ever ) the technology gets to mass market level

Toyota is an oddity in not releasing a BEV.

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

Ha , not really in Germany it costs the bones of 80,000 Euro and there virtually no hydrogen supply points

It will be decades ( if ever ) the technology gets to mass market level

Toyota is an oddity in not releasing a BEV.

It seems they bid on a wrong horse...

[Deleted User]

I'm sure fuel cells will have a future but batteries are getting much better.

The infrastructure is very poor and it takes a lot of energy to produce hydrogen which is much more efficiently used to charge batteries. On the other side, there would need to be much less rare earth minerals needed for batteries, of course Fuel cell vehicles have a battery , it's much smaller.

They need clean sources to produce hydrogen otherwise it's a farce. At least batteries can use any clean energy on the grid and electrics are up to 80% efficient.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

It seems they bid on a wrong horse...

Very much so

[Deleted User]

grogi wrote: »

It seems they bid on a wrong horse...

Indeed they did but in order to admit it someone has to get fired , considerable money was spent on Fuel Cell R&D.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

It seems they bid on a wrong horse...

A lot of them did. It was a gamble, nobody knew what way it went. At least the likes of BMW saw the turning point and moved away from Hydrogen to BEV / PHEV

It buggers me that Toyota still has no BEV. With all their experience with the hybrids going back 20 years. It really has turned into a backwards looking company in recent decades

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

A lot of them did. It was a gamble, nobody knew what way it went. At least the likes of BMW saw the turning point and moved away from Hydrogen to BEV / PHEV

It buggers me that Toyota still has no BEV. With all their experience with the hybrids going back 20 years. It really has turned into a backwards looking company in recent decades

As a car company in general , it seems to have lost its way

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

Ha , not really in Germany it costs the bones of 80,000 Euro

And at 80k they are making a €100k/unit loss... for a car with the interior and driving dynamics of a prius, the motor power of a Leaf, a refueling time of 15-30 minutes and running costs (once the "free" hydrogen ends after three years) double that of petrol.
And that's besides the higher well-to-wheel greenhouse gas emissions.

A total omnishambles.

[Deleted User]

Refuel times are, I think, 5 mins with the higher psi pumps which are not available if I remember correctly.

Hydrogen is inefficient sure but for HGV use it could work out provided the hydrogen is generated from clean sources.

cros13

Generating clean methane is easier, cheaper and will already work with existing engines instead of expensive fuel cells.

[Deleted User]

But you're driving an engine, hell no. lol