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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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AtomicHorror

infogiver wrote: »

Just not Downs Syndrome

That's a fair point, the rates of DS are lower in countries with abortion.

I think that indicates a serious problem with how we perceive special needs, how we support parents and children after birth and throughout life. If society makes raising a DS child difficult, abortion rates for DS pregnancies will be high.

RayM

RobertKK wrote: »

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

I follow a lot of pro-repeal people on Twitter and I'm not seeing any meltdown.

Renua aren't happy:

BabyCheeses

RayM wrote: »

I follow a lot of pro-repeal people on Twitter and I'm not seeing any meltdown.

Renua aren't happy:

But it would mean when they are in control they can protect the little babies. Surely that's great for them? Assuming they still exist at that point.

AtomicHorror

judeboy101 wrote: »

north korea and sudan have abortion ( better abortion than our own regime) but dont do Special olympics So it cant be ALL countries, can it?

And is there a general correlation between abortion rates and level of participation or are these two pretty unusual countries that suited your position?

I withdraw the hyperbole then and correct: Plenty of countries with ready access to abortion participate fully in the Special Olympics.

RayM

BabyCheeses wrote: »

But it would mean when they are in control they can protect the little babies. Surely that's great for them? Assuming they still exist at that point.

I forgot they existed at all, tbh.

judeboy101

AtomicHorror wrote: »

That's a fair point, the rates of DS are lower in countries with abortion.

I think that indicates a serious problem with how we perceive special needs, how we support parents and children after birth and throughout life. If society makes raising a DS child difficult, abortion rates for DS pregnancies will be high.

Denmark and Iceland have made it public policy to be DS free by a particular date. the increasing popularity, accuracy and detail provided by early 1st trimester blood screening e.g harmony test can only lead us down a very scary road.

AtomicHorror

RayM wrote: »

I follow a lot of pro-repeal people on Twitter and I'm not seeing any meltdown. [/IMG]

There was some initial dismay at the vote on ballot 2, but ballot 3 basically revealed the true intention there- to give us repeal with bonus extras.

AtomicHorror

judeboy101 wrote: »

Denmark and Iceland have made it public policy to be DS free by a particular date. the increasing popularity, accuracy and detail provided by early 1st trimester blood screening e.g harmony test can only lead us down a very scary road.

That's no more the fault of abortion than heroin addiction is the fault of syringes. There's a bigger picture and a broader discussion to be had. The tool is not the cause.

judeboy101

AtomicHorror wrote: »

And is there a general correlation between abortion rates and level of participation or are these two pretty unusual countries that suited your position?

I withdraw the hyperbole then and correct: Plenty of countries with ready access to abortion participate fully in the Special Olympics.

there is a correlation between abortion rates and participints with particular syndromes that are identifiable in early pregnancy e.g DS

AtomicHorror

judeboy101 wrote: »

there is a correlation between abortion rates and participints with particular syndromes that are identifiable in early pregnancy e.g DS

I refer to my previous post. The tool is not the cause. It is our cultural attitudes towards disability that drives this.

eviltwin

I'm very happy with the result today and hope we will get to have our say in a referendum. I think the result today shows an evolving Ireland that maybe isn't quite as anti abortion as some like to think. I'd be very confident that abortion in cases of ffa and rape would pass easily in a referendum, not sure about on demand but it would be close. Pro life campaigners will lose public support if they go after parents affected by ffa and rape victims. Regardless of any outcome I just hope we finally get a chance for this generation to voice it's opinion.

AtomicHorror

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm very happy with the result today and hope we will get to have our say in a referendum. I think the result today shows an evolving Ireland that maybe isn't quite as anti abortion as some like to think. I'd be very confident that abortion in cases of ffa and rape would pass easily in a referendum, not sure about on demand but it would be close. Pro life campaigners will lose public support if they go after parents affected by ffa and rape victims. Regardless of any outcome I just hope we finally get a chance for this generation to voice it's opinion.

Well the people won't get to directly vote on rape/ffa- that'll presumably be in draft legislation at the time of the referendum. If they get their timing right.

It's a good day though

Akrasia

judeboy101 wrote: »

Denmark and Iceland have made it public policy to be DS free by a particular date. the increasing popularity, accuracy and detail provided by early 1st trimester blood screening e.g harmony test can only lead us down a very scary road.

A scary road where people don't have to live their lives with congenital birth defects?

Abortion should never be mandatory, and if denmark ever starts telling women that they have to abort their pregnancy or else face some kind of sanction, then this will be a bridge too far, but equally it is wrong to force a family to carry a foetus to term knowing that that the baby will have a life long incurable disease that may result in them requiring full time residential care for most of their lives.

judeboy101

Akrasia wrote: »

A scary road where people don't have to live their lives with congenital birth defects?

Abortion should never be mandatory, and if denmark ever starts telling women that they have to abort their pregnancy or else face some kind of sanction, then this will be a bridge too far, but equally it is wrong to force a family to carry a foetus to term knowing that that the baby will have a life long incurable disease that may result in them requiring full time residential care for most of their lives.

CF, Parkinsons, dementia, cancer (brac gene)....... incurable, but id rather have Michael J fox and Mohammed Ali, than not

judeboy101

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I refer to my previous post. The tool is not the cause. It is our cultural attitudes towards disability that drives this.

are you danish?, Denmark has a public policy to become DS free, and they have some of the best social and health care for special needs anywhere.

AtomicHorror

judeboy101 wrote: »

are you danish?, Denmark has a public policy to become DS free, and they have some of the best social and health care for special needs anywhere.

Heh, actually I am part Danish. But that's genetics, not culture.

Again, my point stands. The policy, the culture, these are not caused by the availability of abortion.

judeboy101 wrote: »

CF, Parkinsons, dementia, cancer (brac gene)....... incurable, but id rather have Michael J fox and Mohammed Ali, than not

Those diseases are all quite different to living with DS.

CF is treatable, though it shortens life. Parkinson's is not diagnosable via genetics alone- you can know there's a risk, but that's about it. Same with dementia and BRAC.

Anyway, seems like your argument is a potentiality kinda thing. As has been neatly summed elsewhere, plucking a seed from the ground is not cutting down a tree. Those people became who they are/were by living, they were not them in the womb. If they never were, we would know no better.

As well to wonder how many Michael J Foxes or Mohammed Alis were eliminated by the pill or caught in condoms or in that nasty sock you keep around. All "potential people". What of it?

AtomicHorror

64% support from the CA for abortion on demand. Surely, this could not possibly have gone better for the Repeal camp?

retro:electro

Have to laugh at the hypocrisy of the feminazi's on Twitter who yesterday lambasted the very idea of a Citizens Assembly, like omg the fact that they even matter is disgusting, how dare you have a say over what I do with my body bla. Now today omg thank god for the citizens assembly today is a good day woo girl power.

January

anna080 wrote: »

Have to laugh at the hypocrisy of the feminazi's on Twitter who yesterday lambasted the very idea of a Citizens Assembly, like omg the fact that they even matter is disgusting, how dare you have a say over what I do with my body bla. Now today omg thank god for the citizens assembly today is a good day woo girl power.

And the hypocrisy of the anti-choice side too. Yesterday it was all about 'wohoo the repeal side lost hahaha' now they've changed their tune.

Academic

Well, this seems pretty definitive:

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/citizens-assembly-calls-for-ireland-to-legalise-abortion-without-restriction-35646531.html

So what happens next? (I'm not asking what people would like to happen next, a question on which we already know there are deep differences so there's to need to re-hash that. I'm asking what people think will happen next.)

January

Academic wrote: »

Well, this seems pretty definitive:

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/citizens-assembly-calls-for-ireland-to-legalise-abortion-without-restriction-35646531.html

So what happens next? (I'm not asking what people would like to happen next, a question on which we already know there are deep differences so there's to need to re-hash that. I'm asking what people think will happen next.)

Report by the chairperson of the CA to be delivered to the Oireachtas committee by June. Oireachtas committee will the examine its findings and make a decision on a referendum.

Academic

January wrote: »

Report by the chairperson of the CA to be delivered to the Oireachtas committee by June. Oireachtas committee will the examine its findings and make a decision on a referendum.

Any guess regarding what their decision will be?

pjohnson

judeboy101 wrote: »

are you danish?, Denmark has a public policy to become DS free, and they have some of the best social and health care for special needs anywhere.

So is abortion mandatory?

Ken.

Academic wrote: »

Well, this seems pretty definitive:

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/citizens-assembly-calls-for-ireland-to-legalise-abortion-without-restriction-35646531.html

So what happens next? (I'm not asking what people would like to happen next, a question on which we already know there are deep differences so there's to need to re-hash that. I'm asking what people think will happen next.)

Local elections are due in the next few weeks. I wonder will they lump in a referendum with that vote or maybe it would be too soon. Either way I see a referendum being called because I believe it would be political suicide for any party to try legislate without going to the people.

As I said in my first post yesterday, I think any vote to bring in abortion will be defeat cause their is a far large silent majority than people think.

Edit to add I just seen January's post so running a referendum with the local elections is probably out of the question.

SEPT 23 1989

Legalise abortion without restriction?

Put that to the people and see how it gets on

B_Wayne

Can OP update title to "The 8th amendment might be repealed"...

pjohnson

B_Wayne wrote: »

Can OP update title to "The 8th amendment might be repealed"...

Yes hahah

Parchment

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Legalise abortion without restriction?

Put that to the people and see how it gets on

It gets on fine in most first world countries. Ireland is a bit lacking in that common sense department unfortunately.

January

These are the results from the vote today -

1. No restriction for real and substantial physical risk to life of woman.
2. No restriction for real and substantial risk of suicide.
3. No restriction for serious risk to physical health of woman.
4. No restriction for serious risk to mental health of woman.
5. No restriction for serious risk to health of woman.
6. No restriction for risk to physical health of woman.
7. Up to 22 weeks for risk to mental health of woman.
8. Up to 22 weeks for risk to health of woman.
9. Up to 22 weeks in cases of rape (tied vote with deciding vote cast by Judge Laffoy).
10. No restrictions in cases of FFA.
11. Up to 22 weeks in cases of non-fatal foetal abnormality.
12. Up to 22 weeks for socio-economic reasons.
13. No restrictions of any kind - up to 12 weeks.
14. No distinction between physical and mental health.

AtomicHorror

judeboy101 wrote: »

Life long was the point, CF is life long and incurable and testable genetically so you are in favour of terminating all CF embryos?

Why all? If the mother understands the consequences and makes that decision, yes. Would I? I don't know. Would have to weigh it up at the time.

judeboy101 wrote: »

what about blue eyes or red hair?

I wouldn't do so myself, but yes, if they want to.

judeboy101 wrote: »

its not about potential its about knowledge. if you take the pill or **** in a sock you have no knowledge of what you are destroying, thats why, for example we have the option of manslaughter instead of murder.

The difference between manslaughter and murder is intent, not some additional knowledge about the victim.

judeboy101 wrote: »

if you begin to allow people to choose what type of child they have you eliminate the very thing that makes us a sucessful species, variation.

You can't eliminate variation- at least not with modern genetic testing. Too many variables, too many unpredictable interactions. You could, at best, eliminate some very very simple genetic problems.

The gamut of human genetic variation is so vast, we have no hope of curtailing it through abortion.

Genetic modification is another story, but it's pretty off topic.

judeboy101 wrote: »

For every billion CF genes, you'll get one mutation that might, just might enhance our respiratory defences. abortion goes against the very idea of natural selection.

Well no, because the CFTR gene is the CFTR gene. We know what it is and what it does and it's not going to confer some innate advantage without changing in such a way that it won't be the CFTR gene anymore (and therefore no longer be screened out).

It could occur that some environmental context will make CFTR an advantage (and I guess such a context must exist for the allele to have persisted this long), but what are the odds of that exact scenario becoming significant?