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Social Justice Warriors - poisoning Rational Discourse?

JupiterKid

I'm seeing more and more of this on internet message boards. Where any attempt to have a rational, reasoned discussion on matters such as power structures, race relations, global politics and gender equality is hijacked by the far left who seem to ignore empirical facts and accuse anyone of holding different views as them as racists, bigots and worse.

It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down. As an academic who prides my work on rigid empiricism and evaluation of factual data, this "postmodernist" cultural Marxism that feeds into SJW ideology is based on very little rigid analysis of hard data and instead thrives on "groupthink" and reactionary sentiment. Ironically, the far left is almost as bad now as the far right.

This seems to have diffused from American universities - first it was political correctness in the 90s, but now has evolved into more extreme forms - and has infiltrated the West to a large extent. It seems to be offensive to hold centrist views on any key issues these days for fear of being attacked. I think SJW ideology is actually going to drive more and more people towards the far right which is a very sad thing.

Anyone share my sentiments? Or should we all eagerly embrace SJW cultural Marxist groupthink?

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JupiterKid

I voted for marriage equality - well, that's obvious as I am a gay man and I want to be able to share my life with someone I love with full legal recognition.

I support a woman's right to choose - within limits.

I fully support equality between the races and the sexes.

But I despise extremist religion in all its guises.

I believe in equality of opportunity and success based on merit, not privilige.

However, I abhor being silenced and shouted down just because my views don't support the narrative of those who believe that their way of thinking is the only way everyone should think - be that right wing or left wing. Isn't it better to calmly debate issues with others who don't share your views rather than label them in derogatory terms?

Most people just want a decent, safe life for themselves and their families rather than being classed as selfish and ignorant.

For the record I was dismayed at Trumps election but didnt see Clinton as a better alternative. Alienating those who don't agree with your opinions is counter-productive and the far left don't seem to accept or understand this.

Annasopra

JupiterKid wrote: »

Isn't it better to calmly debate issues with others who don't share your views rather than label them in derogatory terms?

Yes.

So why are you doing the exact opposite?

[Deleted User]

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes.

So why are you doing the exact opposite?

I've read that post twice, and I can't see any group being described in derogatory terms.

What did you find "derogatory" in the post?

I thought it was very measured, and went to considerable lengths to avoid offending any particular group, while still offering an opinion on what many people, from a huge spectrum of opinion, now see as a problem.

infogiver

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've read that post twice, and I can't see any group being described in derogatory terms.

What did you find "derogatory" in the post?

I thought it was very measured, and went to considerable lengths to avoid offending any particular group, while still offering an opinion on what many people, from a huge spectrum of opinion, now see as a problem.

I agree. I hope Joey the Parrot can point out where Jupiter Kid used a derogatory term.

tomwaterford

infogiver wrote: »

I agree. I hope Joey the Parrot can point out where Jupiter Kid used a derogatory term.

Perhaps beginning with the tread title

Unless you view sjw as a non degotary phrase which only gives rise to rational discouse when it's said??

Perhaps a poll would answer this question?

conorhal

infogiver wrote: »

I agree. I hope Joey the Parrot can point out where Jupiter Kid used a derogatory term.

He can't, it was a perfectly ballanced opinion expressed without predjudice or malice. The response however was a rather depressing example of the left's 'zero sum game' when it comes to debate. You don't have to be right, you just need to shout loudly that your opponent is wrong.

There's just no arguing with somebody like that.

[Deleted User]

conorhal wrote: »

He can't, it was a perfectly balanced opinion expressed without prejudice or malice. The response however was a rather depressing example of the left's 'zero sum game' when it comes to debate. You don't have to be right, you just need to shout loudly that your opponent is wrong.

There's just no arguing with somebody like that.

The graph forgot to mention racist, sexist, privileged, biased, and similar terms.
The term "Nazi" alone doesn't quite do it justice!:D:D:D

hatrickpatrick

tomwaterford wrote: »

Perhaps beginning with the tread title

Unless you view sjw as a non degotary phrase which only gives rise to rational discouse when it's said??

Perhaps a poll would answer this question?

SJW is just the term used to describe cultural authoritarians. They use it themselves when trolling.

LLMMLL

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Simple example: Transgender people. Most moderates are perfectly ok with transgender people. I mean it must suck feeling like you've been born into the wrong body and being stuck with that, or having to get surgery to change it if you're well off enough to do so. It would in times gone by have only been the far right which would have had any issue in this regard, or any animosity towards these people.

Enter the SJW left. Enter concepts like "genderfluid", "non binary", "otherkin", "genderqueer", etc. Enter the idea that it's a good idea to give reassignment surgery to pre-teens, knowing full well that they may horribly regret it later in life because nobody is equipped to make decisions like that at their age. Enter the argument that peoples' self-chosen gender identity should override things like gender segregation in sports due to advantage differences, gender based privacy in changing rooms, etc. Enter the ridiculous and seemingly never-ending push to add more letters to the term "LGBT", so that literally anybody with the slightest individual difference to anybody else gets their own special label (honestly, I know people who are legitimately transgender who regard the latter as insufferably attention-seeking and credibility-robbing). Etc etc etc.

On top of all this, enter the argument that if you don't 100% subscribe to the most radical of ideas around gender identity, you are clearly a conservative trolling bigot who deserves to have his or her life ruined through online harassment, petitions to your place of work to have you fired, the spamming and doxxing of all social media accounts you hold, and even potentially the targeting of your place of residence in real life, and those of your family.

Got all that so far? Right, now consider the argument that the internet should be regulated and policed so that anybody who disagrees with these people is muzzles. Consider the argument that one shouldn't be welcome to speak in college unless you subscribe 100% to all of these ideologies. Consider the argument that media companies should actively censor those whose opinions deviate from the SJW sacred cows. Consider the argument that hate speech against certain groups is fine, but hate speech against others should be severely punished. Consider the fact that amazingly, this latter ideology is specifically constructed to give the SJWs a free pass to harass and insult anybody they like, but to entirely embubble them from receiving any such harassment in response.

Is it honestly any wonder that even people like myself (I consider myself left wing - even far left - and I personally find these morons on my own side of the political aisle more gratingly irritating than the Trumpeteer muppets) are utterly fed up with them and regard them as genuinely dangerous, a threat to the free society we've all grown up in, in which you cannot be persecuted for your beliefs?

Seriously, the Trumpeteers are completely honest about this - their utter disgust and impatience with radical PC culture is one of their reasons for their gleeful support of Trump. They're happy that somebody is deliberately "triggering" all of the SJW types because they've been so incredibly irritating about their perceived invincibility to opposition.

Your biggest problem with all this seems to be that they "irritate" you. You don't like letters being added to LGBT. Some rare sexual identity have come up with a term to describe themselves.

I'm just wondering are you Irish or american. Because if you are Irish of a certain age (over 30 say) and you think that society today is less free than it was.in the 80s 90s then you have quite a large perception problem.

Jayop

There's a certain hilarious irony in people of a right wing persuasion saying that 'liberals' shut down the discussion. It's near impossible to discuss anything with those from the right without them curling up in the corner crying that no one listens while calling everyone else snowflakes.

Such nonsense

Will I Am Not

Jayop wrote: »

There's a certain hilarious irony in people of a right wing persuasion saying that 'liberals' shut down the discussion. It's near impossible to discuss anything with those from the right without them curling up in the corner crying that no one listens while calling everyone else snowflakes.

Such nonsense

Do you live in some kind of bizarro world where everybody acts like the most extreme example you're ever likely to find in the weirdest corner of the internet?

Jayop

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Do you live in some kind of bizarro world where everybody acts like the most extreme example you're ever likely to find in the weirdest corner of the internet?

Nope, just on Boards and any comments sections you read.

Look at the OP. Pure crybaby 'oh the mean liberals won't allow me to say whatever I want without calling me up on it whah whah whah'

Of course he frames it in such a way as to intentionally try to provoke a reaction while still being able to say he wasn't, but that's the norm.

The reality is that of course there's fanatical liberals, loads of them who try to shut down speech, no platforming for example I abhor. It would me much better to protest at something rather than have people's opinions shut down.

However the right (using that as opposed to liberal) have got centuries of shutting down free speech and freedom of choice. The right isn't just white western people, it's right wing Muslim countries, it's burka bans, it's invading countries for religious reasons, it's murdering people like Joe Cox, it's acting like a cry baby online to **** down arguments from the left you don't like to hear.

Jayop

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Do you live in some kind of bizarro world where everybody acts like the most extreme example you're ever likely to find in the weirdest corner of the internet?

I also find it interesting that my pov is some "bizarro world" while the OP which you liked and is essentially the same view but from the opposite end is perfectly reasonable.

That ladies and gentlemen is a perfect example of the hypocrisy of these offended people I refer to. Absolutely no sense of the irony dropping from them.

Mountainsandh

Commenting on old posts as I'm late into the party.

super_furry wrote: »

Yet it's a phenomenon born out of US websites, and has exactly nothing to do with Ireland. Too many people spending too much time online and not enough in the real world. On one side you have the tumblr head cases and on the other, the red pill 'manosohere' both equally pointless and both equally living their lives outside of the real world.

Not so sure about that. One look at new batches of school textbooks would probably illustrate how these viewpoints have permeated the education sector for example. While it would be very easy to pinpoint and condemn right wing ideology in a textbook, it is more delicate to approach a leftist agenda in that context.

Shenshen wrote: »

Sorry, I don't follow - you claimed that racism was going down at a time when it was showing its most nasty side right across Europe - from minorities being killed in relatively moderate Germany to genocides in the Balkans to the Front National in France actually running their first presidential candiate.

I don't honestly see what the US class system has to do with that?

I disagree. My experience of France in the 90s was more of the sweet spot described than what you mention. Yeah yeah Le Pen... Watch Les Guignols from that era though, to get a sense of how he was considered. Touche pas a Mon pote, Daniel Balavoine, les Enfoires is what I grew up with.

Will I Am Not

Jayop wrote: »

I also find it interesting that my pov is some "bizarro world" while the OP which you liked and is essentially the same view but from the opposite end is perfectly reasonable.

That ladies and gentlemen is a perfect example of the hypocrisy of these offended people I refer to. Absolutely no sense of the irony dropping from them.

But nobody cried in the corner shouting snowflake. That's what you said and that's what I commented on.

I'm not offended at all, you're talking bollox.

The OP didn't do this either.

Look at the OP. Pure crybaby 'oh the mean liberals won't allow me to say whatever I want without calling me up on it whah whah whah'

You're just blowing it all out to the level of the extreme gobsh*tes in the weird corners of the internet I was referring to.

This is what ruins discussion. Taking a point that somebody made and passing it off as just hysterical whinging.

infogiver

tomwaterford wrote: »

Perhaps beginning with the tread title

Unless you view sjw as a non degotary phrase which only gives rise to rational discouse when it's said??

Perhaps a poll would answer this question?

No I don't consider SJW to be a derogatory term. Certainly not anything like as derogatory as being called a Nazi or a homophobe or a sexist misogynistic pig.

Jayop

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

But nobody cried in the corner shouting snowflake. That's what you said and that's what I commented on.

I'm not offended at all, you're talking bollox.

The OP didn't do this either.

You're just blowing it all out to the level of the extreme gobsh*tes in the weird corners of the internet I was referring to.

This is what ruins discussion. Taking a point and passing it off as just whinging.

From the OP

"It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down."

Whah Whah Whah

Will I Am Not

Jayop wrote: »

From the OP

"It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down."

Whah Whah Whah

There you did it again.

Chips Lovell

There seems to be an entire generation with an insatiable appetite for waging war against some imagined enemy on the internet.

They're just looking for something to be outraged by, whether its picking up on some nonsense from an obscure liberal or feminist academic on a US campus or the deliberately provocative wittering of some previously unheard-of alt-right dude.

The whole thing is utterly tedious, boring and childish, and has polluted entire corners of the internet to the extent that you just want to gouge your eyes out with a fork.

At some point, it's going to dawn on a lot of them that big chunks of their teens and twenties were consumed by pointless fury.

conorhal

Jayop wrote: »

From the OP

"It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down."

Whah Whah Whah

I don't see any significant equivalent on the right 'no platforming' and rioting as they have on US campuses when speakers they disagree with are invited to speak.
I have however seen the Israeli ambassador and speakers like Maryam Namazie 'no platformed' in Trinity College.

I've not seen any significant equivelant on the right demanding effective 'anti blasphemy against Islam' laws like canada's M-103 bill, or our own equally regressive legislation currently passing undebated through the Dail.

I don't see any significant equivalent on the right demanding companies fire employees for 'wrong think' or demanding social media be censored for the same.

There are legitimate concerns regards free speach at the moment and the only person I see screeching, throwing around strawmen and pejoratives and refusing to debate here is you. Unelss you think 'Whah whah whah' constitutes an argument, in which case your argument unironically speaks for itself.

Jayop

conorhal wrote: »

I don't see any significant equivalent on the right 'no platforming' and rioting as they have on US campuses when speakers they disagree with are invited to speak.
I have however seen the Israeli ambassador and speakers like Maryam Namazie 'no platformed' in Trinity College.

I've not seen any significant equivelant on the right demanding effective 'anti blasphemy against Islam' laws like canada's M-103 bill, or our own equally regressive legislation currently passing undebated through the Dail.

I don't see any significant equivalent on the right demanding companies fire employees for 'wrong think' or demanding social media be censored for the same.

There are legitimate concerns regards free speach at the moment and the only person I see screeching, throwing around strawmen and pejoratives and refusing to debate here is you. Unelss you think 'Whah whah whah' constitutes an argument, in which case your argument unironically speaks for itself.

If you read my posts maybe two or three above you i say I abhor no platforming, but if you think that's worse than what the right (not the right as much as the anti liberal) in terms of what we've seen from fascists, burka bans, religious intolerance, racist policies, attacks on abortion clinics etc then I'm frankly out of ideas in how to help you understand.

Basically, yes there's loads of over zealous gimpos on the lefty liberal side, but their no platforming is about the worst thing they do.

hatrickpatrick

LLMMLL wrote: »

Your biggest problem with all this seems to be that they "irritate" you. You don't like letters being added to LGBT. Some rare sexual identity have come up with a term to describe themselves.

I'm just wondering are you Irish or american. Because if you are Irish of a certain age (over 30 say) and you think that society today is less free than it was.in the 80s 90s then you have quite a large perception problem.

Actually my issue with them isn't that they irritate me, it's the chilling effect they have on the internet. And I'm not talking about society either but the internet specifically - the internet of the 90s and 00s had no rules except "if you're offended, f*ck off". Now, the slightest infraction against somebody's sensibilities results in a gigantic witch hunt which usually culminates in attempts to get people banned from public platforms, fired from their jobs, kicked out of school, etc. That's what I have an issue with - people should be able to express whatever opinions they like without fear of reprisals.

I'll admit that attention seeking "look at me, I'm so special and unique" muppets who invent new terms to describe themselves do irritate me, but as per my beliefs about free speech, they're free to do that - my being irritated does not confer me any right to do anything about it. When they cross the line is when they demand that everybody adhere to their ideology, or have their personal lives destroyed by doxxing and the subsequent harassment that inevitably follows.

hatrickpatrick

conorhal wrote: »

I don't see any significant equivalent on the right 'no platforming' and rioting as they have on US campuses when speakers they disagree with are invited to speak.

They used to, in fairness. I initially identified as a left wing liberal in my early teenage years when I learned of the right wing's attempts to ban pornography, blasphemous films like The Life of Brian, certain genres of music, etc - almost always on religious grounds, sometimes on "family values" grounds.

I find it pretty bizarre how cultural libertarianism has shifted from the left to the right, actually. But my loyalty is to that ideology and not to whichever group happens to support it at the time - if being a cultural libertarian in 2017 means flying in the same direction as Milo Yiannapolous, then so be it. My core belief - that speech should not be policed in any way - remains the same as it was when I identified as a liberal.

[Deleted User]

Jayop wrote: »

There's a certain hilarious irony in people of a right wing persuasion saying that 'liberals' shut down the discussion. It's near impossible to discuss anything with those from the right without them curling up in the corner crying that no one listens while calling everyone else snowflakes.

Such nonsense

What about those who are from the right wing, though not far right, or centrists, who don't curl up in a corner, or call people snowflakes, and who make reasoned arguments? (ie. A lot of people).

You don't seem to acknowledge them, for some reason.

Could it be that you are being derogatory toward people, to stifle debate?

Jayop wrote: »

From the OP

"It's very intolerant and actually reflects very poorly on them more then it does those they attack, often with vitriol. Any attempt at a dissenting view, no matter how reasoned and moderate, is shut down."

Whah Whah Whah

You just proved the point the OP was making.

Jayop wrote: »

If you read my posts maybe two or three above you i say I abhor no platforming, but if you think that's worse than what the right (not the right as much as the anti liberal) in terms of what we've seen from fascists, burka bans, religious intolerance, racist policies, attacks on abortion clinics etc then I'm frankly out of ideas in how to help you understand.

Basically, yes there's loads of over zealous gimpos on the lefty liberal side, but their no platforming is about the worst thing they do.

Really?

Would that not depend on how much violence the "no platforming" entails?

What about supporting women's rights, by having a woman who actively supports Sharia law, purport to defend women?

Or refusing to allow pro-life groups to march for women's rights? Is that not authoritarian, rather than libertarian?

The extreme "over zealous gimpos" you describe are every bit as intolerant as the extreme right.
Unfortunately, their tactic of shutting down dissent is spreading to those of a more reasonable disposition.

It is this that is a cause of concern to many posters here.

hatrickpatrick

Jayop wrote: »

Basically, yes there's loads of over zealous gimpos on the lefty liberal side, but their no platforming is about the worst thing they do.

How about publicly doxxing people and getting them fired from their jobs for expressing their opinions outside working hours?

Jayop

"every bit as intolerant"

That's pure fantasy.

Of course there's loads of people on the right and center who see able to debate reasonably and their views should be respected and challenged when needed. That happens and not 'every' thread on Boards is full of 'sjw's' shouting them down. That was the point made by the OP. It's quite clearly bollox.

Go into the thread about the gang rapes in England. Full of islamophobic bollox and no shouting them down. I just decided to leave that thread alone as it's a cess pool. Allow them to spew their uninformed hate speech to their black hearts content.

Jayop

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How about publicly doxxing people and getting them fired from their jobs for expressing their opinions outside working hours?

If someone has a personal opinion on something that they don't want people to know about then keep it to themselves or else be man enough to stand behind it. Anything I say here I'd say in person and my views are known to all who know me.

That said, I don't think that's on, but is it as bad as bombing abortion clinics or murdering those who work there?

kupus

Jayop wrote: »

There's a certain hilarious irony in people of a right wing persuasion saying that 'liberals' shut down the discussion. It's near impossible to discuss anything with those from the right without them curling up in the corner crying that no one listens while calling everyone else snowflakes.

Such nonsense

Such nonsense, hmm

Heres the thing, as much as I cant stand the left I fear the right even more.
Reason I know what they are capable of.
Unlike a lot of you here on boards, I've actually met with the real deal right on the continent.
The kind of people that make Tommy Robinson look like a cuddly cartoon figure.

So when the liberal looney left shout down people that have genuine grievances and tell them that they are privileged and other such nonsense they will turn to those that will listen.

You think Brexit and Trump was a coincidence. This has being happening for years and its effects are only coming to fruition now.
Ordinary blue collar workers are ****ed from all side, immigrants coming in taking jobs. Government making taxes higher or just making up new taxes for the sake of it.

Electricity going up
water going up
gas going up
petrol going up
transport going up
food bills going up.
health bills (forget about it) you are put on a waiting list you just better hope and pray that you dont die first.

Every ****ing thing going up yet wages are being lowered for the working classes.

What part of that can you just not comprehend.

jackofalltrades

Jayop wrote: »

If you read my posts maybe two or three above you i say I abhor no platforming, but if you think that's worse than what the right (not the right as much as the anti liberal) in terms of what we've seen from fascists, burka bans, religious intolerance, racist policies, attacks on abortion clinics etc then I'm frankly out of ideas in how to help you understand.

Most of those examples are examples of the far-right.
Are there centre right or mainstream right wing parties that are shutting down free speech, that would be the equivalent of Canada's M-103 bill?

Basically, yes there's loads of over zealous gimpos on the lefty liberal side, but their no platforming is about the worst thing they do.

No full on violence is the worst that they do. We've even seen it in action in Dublin.

Go into the thread about the gang rapes in England. Full of islamophobic bollox and no shouting them down. I just decided to leave that thread alone as it's a cess pool. Allow them to spew their uninformed hate speech to their black hearts content.

You're talking about people shutting down discussions and then using a word that is designed to shutdown discussion.

Jayop

kupus wrote: »

Such nonsense, hmm

Heres the thing, as much as I cant stand the left I fear the right even more.
Reason I know what they are capable of.
Unlike a lot of you here on boards, I've actually met with the real deal right on the continent.
The kind of people that make Tommy Robinson look like a cuddly cartoon figure.

So when the liberal looney left shout down people that have genuine grievances and tell them that they are privileged and other such nonsense they will turn to those that will listen.

You think Brexit and Trump was a coincidence. This has being happening for years and its effects are only coming to fruition now.
Ordinary blue collar workers are ****ed from all side, immigrants coming in taking jobs. Government making taxes higher or just making up new taxes for the sake of it.

Electricity going up
water going up
gas going up
petrol going up
transport going up
food bills going up.
health bills (forget about it) you are put on a waiting list you just better hope and pray that you dont die first.

Every ****ing thing going up yet wages are being lowered for the working classes.

What part of that can you just not comprehend.

1) immigrants aren't taking their jobs. Their jobs are being moved to foreign countries and being lost to automation.
2) the list of things you say are getting more expensive simply is false. A lot of those were more expensive a few years ago or are the same price in line with inflation.

The problem is that these two things are true and right wing scare mongering cannot admit it. Those lies are what brought around Trump and Brexit.

Now, this isn't me shouting you down or saying you're not entitled to your opinion. I know that's how the butt hurt right like to feel, but it's not the case.