Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

OK, thread re-opened. Please comment on what is in the report only.

It was emotional to read however the relevant facts are that the crew were flying a company approach, details of which are not fully outlined, and Black rock island terrain was not in the terrain / navigation database they had.

They did not know it was there until it was too late.

Also,
AAIU have officially released it here:

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202017-006%20PRELIMINARY.pdf

mickdw

Prime time report was on the money early days noting the lack of the rock within the database abd even referring the winch guys in the back having night vision which we now know they were using but only saw the rock with 10 seconds to spare.
I guess at least the crew can be cleared if they diligently flew an approved approach.

Pretty harrowing stuff....Not speculating but both pilots remarked that they did not land in blacksod for a while ...And did the little island throw them off ...

Is 200 feet the company approach

homerjay2005

11 seconds from "island ahead" to impact. surely thats enough time for evasive action?

easy for me to say i guess

:(:(

is there any indication why they were so low?

Accordingly, it is inappropriate that AAIU Reports should be used to assign fault or blame or determine liability, since neither the safety investigation nor the reporting process has been undertaken for that purpose.

An important line from the report that is worth repeating.

Guess my hopes and views were wrong. CFIT is indeed the cause. Lots of small things leading up to it.

Interesting (and it must be important in the eyes of the AAIU) that the crew mentioned several times they had not been to Blacksod in some time.

One thing that is niggling at me is the exact location of BLKMO, I can't find any reference on AIP so was this a company waypoint?

homerjay2005 wrote: »

is there any indication why they were so low?

SOP for 'an approach like this' was descend to 200ft RA, it's in the report.

TallGlass

In response to a query, "come right just confirm"? from the Commander, the crew member said degrees right yeah, and a heading change was initiated using heading mode. The rear crew member then interjected, with increasing urgency, "Come right now come right COME RIGHT".

Makes for very sad reading, that piece in particular for me. We have all been there at some stage, for me it would be driving a car. Someone saying to 'watch out'.

Reads to me like the which ever mapping software was selected, didn't have the right information or no information at all; along with the pilots both having not flown the route in a while.

Very tragic to be honest, it sounds like if it had of been noticed 30/40 seconds earlier it could have just been a close call.

Steve wrote: »

SOP for 'an approach like this' was descend to 200ft RA, it's in the report.

So close to blackrock ?

irishgeo

I have a few questions.

Why is the RA different to the actual flying altitude?

Were flying a preprogrammed route flown loads of times before?

Is the BLKMO the small island they flew over but before Blackrock itself?

Shocking how quickly it went bad just over 13 seconds.

Could a person not just pull a stick for a turn rather than typing it into the computer?

Steve wrote: »

One thing that is niggling at me is the exact location of BLKMO, I can't find any reference on AIP so was this a company waypoint?

Might be.

BLKMO is a geographic point on the Operatorâ€™s Route Guide at which the arrival into Blacksod was to commence; it is close to Black Rock

RonanFarrell

How come previous landings didn't raise the issue or risk of the missing/incorrect data?

.G.

It's bloody grim reading the ends of four peoples lives laid out in black and white like that.

TomOnBoard

I'm sure there'll be a lot of argument for the remainder of the evening on what this actually means. Having read the report, parts of which I found tough to read, I see a few noteworthy points.

1. There's an awful lot more detail in there than I was expecting for a preliminary report.

2. The fact that Capt Fitzpatrick was spotted by R118 within 3 minutes of starting a search and subsequently recovered by Achill lifeboat is way sooner than earlier media reports suggested.

3. No one else was spotted. We now know that Capt Duffy went down with the aircraft.

4. The flight crew's experience of a Blacksod approach was not recent and did not mention the existence of either Blackrock and its lighthouse in the briefing.

superg wrote: »

It's bloody grim reading the ends of four peoples lives laid out in black and white like that.

I agree ...Awful

gctest50

blm. - the island itself

brooke 2

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Error by crew is NOT what the Times report is saying...

That report says:
"
The report details how aircraft relies on an Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System (EGPWS) to detect obstacles, providing a visual and audio alert to the pilot.

â€œThe EGPWS provides the flight crew (subject to the display selections made) with a display of the helicopter position relative to the databases of surrounding terrain and obstacles. If the EGPWS detects that the helicopter is, or will come into, conflict with database terrain or obstacle(s), it will provide a combination of annunciator lights, colour display(s) and aural alerts to the pilot.Ã¢â‚¬

The report continues: â€œIn relation to Black Rock and its Lighthouse the EGPWS manufacturer informed the Investigation that â€˜The lighthouse obstacle is not in the obstacle database and the terrain of the island is not in our terrain databaseâ€™.Ã¢â‚¬

That suggests to me that the crew relied on EGPWS and it was devoid of info on Blackrock.?

That's how it appears to me. Sickening to read it. :mad:

elastico

Skuxx wrote: »

Who says they should have been flying at 3000ft?

Well documented earlier in the thread. 10-12K from destination, it would be normal to be early in the cruise down from 4000 ft and be around 3000ft at this point.

P.lane78 wrote: »

I agree ...Awful

These reports are very factual to the events as prescribed by evidence found. It's very direct in language so we can be clear and learn from it with little left to ambiguity. They can be hard to read when you consider they deal with peoples dying.

Gaoth Laidir

Wtf is BLKMO doing so close to an island that's not represented on the EGPWS database and may or may not have been on their moving map, depending on which chart was selected?

See page 17 for the Operators Route Guide map.

The helicopter was equipped with a EuroAvionics EuroNav 5 moving map display which
had a number of maps/charts available for selection. The exact information in relation to
Black Rock and Lighthouse varied from none, to detailed, depending on the selected
map/chart.

irishgeo wrote: »

I have a few questions.

Why is the RA different to the actual flying altitude?

RA is Radar altitude, it is more accurate than barometric altitude.

Were flying a preprogrammed route flown loads of times before?

Is the BLKMO the small island they flew over but before Blackrock itself?

We don't know that. It's not clear in the report.

Could a person not just pull a stick for a turn rather than typing it into the computer?

Yes, but the visibility may not have afforded that opportunity.

elastico

P.lane78 wrote: »

Is 200 feet the company approach

I am no expert but I would say yes, as long as you are landing where you are supposed to land.

As in, if you are planning to land in Shannon then 200ft is about right.

But 12K away, they should be around ~3000 ft.

Reati wrote: »

These reports are very factual to the events as prescribed by evidence found. It's very direct in language so we can be clear and learn from it with little left to ambiguity.[/quote

Better than the journal and the increasingly tabloidly Indo ...Pulling the last cockpit voice interactions at such an early stage is click bait at its finest

cabledude

Steve wrote: »

OK, thread re-opened. Please comment on what is in the report only.

It was emotional to read however the relevant facts are that the crew were flying a company approach, details of which are not fully outlined, and Black rock island terrain was not in the terrain / navigation database they had.

They did not know it was there until it was too late.

But the lighthouse was operational?

Did they mistake Blackrock for Blacksod?

Stheno

superg wrote: »

It's bloody grim reading the ends of four peoples lives laid out in black and white like that.

Tis.

Hard to imagine.

God rest them all

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Wtf is BLKMO doing so close to an island that's not represented on the EGPWS database and may or may not have been on their moving map, depending on which chart was selected?

See page 17 for the Operators Route Guide map.

BKLMO is a point of interest as a SAR waypoint for sure, whether it should be part of an approach is something the AAIU are sure to investigate in more depth.

irishgeo

gctest50 wrote: »

blm. - the island itself

That is referring to a small island west of Blackrock Island.