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Bombs kill dozens in Egypt

Autonomous Cowherd

I know people might say here we go again, more bombs, more terrorism etc., but I was just discussing with my OH why is it that if we had heard today that over 40 people had been blown up in a church in New York or Paris or Tokyo, we would be inundated with headlines and forum posts and so on, but when dozens are murdered in Egypt, as it is today, there is very little reaction.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39544451

ISIL bombs Coptic Christians in Tanta and Alexandria, Egypt.

I am not trying to be smart...I genuinely wonder what is the subtle hard-wiring that has (at least some of ) us react on a diminishing scale depending on where the horror occurs. I am presuming i am not the only one since this happened hours ago and there is no thread for it.

If this is conditioning then can you imagine how many other things have been subtly conditioned into us, of which we are hardly aware.

I am admitting that I do not feel the same sense of shock when a bomb goes off in Egypt as I would if a bomb went of in London. This muted response disturbs me.

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Irish Praetorian

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I know people might say here we go again, more bombs, more terrorism etc., but I was just discussing with my OH why is it that if we had heard today that over 40 people had been blown up in a church in New York or Paris or Tokyo, we would be inundated with headlines and forum posts and so on, but when dozens are murdered in Egypt, as it is today, there is very little reaction.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39544451

ISIL bombs Coptic Christians in Tanta and Alexandria, Egypt.

I am not trying to be smart...I genuinely wonder what is the subtle hard-wiring that has (at least some of ) us react on a diminishing scale depending on where the horror occurs. I am presuming i am not the only one since this happened hours ago and there is no thread for it.

If this is conditioning then can you imagine how many other things have been subtly conditioned into us, of which we are hardly aware.

I am admitting that I do not feel the same sense of shock when a bomb goes off in Egypt as I would if a bomb went of in London. This muted response disturbs me.

I suspect it's down to a combination of matters; firstly the geographic distance makes it less relevant or rather pressing to us than say an attack in London. Secondly, the cultural distance is also something worth mentioning, as people might have a harder time relating to an attack in (to our minds) an unusual form of Christian worship in a predominately Muslim region, than they might say with an attack on a super market in a French town.

Thirdly, I suspect there is something resembling 'charity fatigue' at work here, where, grim as it sounds, the news of violence in a highly troubled region is not viewed as something particularly novel or unexpected. By contrast, the presence of the exact same motives in a Western city is seen as far more unusual and comment worthy. You can find a similar lack of reaction to say the plight of Christians in Northern Nigeria.

Lastly and some may well find this thoroughly objectionable but I feel it's worth saying, I imagine there is an element of 'they are savages killing one another' at work here - unsurprisingly in light of the events of the past two decades, Islam has attracted a strong association with violent extremism, so much so that the notion of a religious (or other) minority being targeted in a Muslim country is almost expected at this stage.

None of these are particularly appealing explanations, but I'd say they are a reasonable approximation of the truth.

Gatling

It's probably likely people aren't too interested in Egypt or Egyptians as whole,it's over there ah sure we might be shocked if it was Europe but it's not,
For most people buts just a holiday destination nothing more or nothing less ,

We're also getting desensitized to terror stories as a whole

Barry Badrinath

You answered your question in your closing paragraph.

It all comes down to familiarity and expectation. The more familiar a person is with a location, the more they will respond to events there.

I have never been to Egypt so when an unfortunate event happens there, especially as it's a location of unrest, I am less sensitive to it as I also "expect" to hear about an event of that nature there.

If the same event happens in a location I am more familiar with, I will respond more to it.

Its just the way it is for some people.

On a side note, why would we want to highlight every event of people being blown to fcuk. Its depressing and its not something we can stop. Endless empathy or talking about it wont stop it.

Erik Shin

We expect violence in certain areas of the world...When it happens...we aren't surprised, or shocked...... Unfortunately

Autonomous Cowherd

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I suspect it's down to a combination of matters; firstly the geographic distance makes it less relevant or rather pressing to us than say an attack in London. Secondly, the cultural distance is also something worth mentioning, as people might have a harder time relating to an attack in (to our minds) an unusual form of Christian worship in a predominately Muslim region, than they might say with an attack on a super market in a French town.

Thirdly, I suspect there is something resembling 'charity fatigue' at work here, where, grim as it sounds, the news of violence in a highly troubled region is not viewed as something particularly novel or unexpected. By contrast, the presence of the exact same motives in a Western city is seen as far more unusual and comment worthy. You can find a similar lack of reaction to say the plight of Christians in Northern Nigeria.

Lastly and some may well find this thoroughly objectionable but I feel it's worth saying, I imagine there is an element of 'they are savages killing one another' at work here - unsurprisingly in light of the events of the past two decades, Islam has attracted a strong association with violent extremism, so much so that the notion of a religious (or other) minority being targeted in a Muslim country is almost expected at this stage.

None of these are particularly appealing explanations, but I'd say they are a reasonable approximation of the truth.

These seem reasonable explanations.

Looking into it i find New York is 5000km away and Alexandria, Egypt is 6000 km, so I don't think geographical distance is the key. If it was in Auckland or Melbourne we would be convulsed.
So, the distance is something else. Cultural as you suggest, maybe. Which makes me wonder if any of us can be said to have a rational position on anything to do with multi-culturalism, Islamaphobia, wars in ME etc...as we obviously feel quite distant from these issues and their impact on the people in those areas at some fundamental human level.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

I hear Clare Daly, PBP, and Dublin City council are calling for flags to be lowered to half mast tomorrow. Ha just kidding, Coptic Christians don't even register on the identity politics scale.

The bomb attack happened live on Egyptian TV, the exact moment can be seen in this video:
SNIP

Video possibly NSWF.

Autonomous Cowherd

Gatling wrote: »

It's probably likely people aren't too interested in Egypt or Egyptians as whole,it's over there ah sure we might be shocked if it was Europe but it's not,
For most people buts just a holiday destination nothing more or nothing less ,

We're also getting desensitized to terror stories as a whole

One could suggest that, yes. I have never been to Egypt on holidays. But Egypt as a grand idea and culture has fascinated me since childhood, and there is so much history and mysterious civilisation there...so I would say a lot of us have been interested in Egypt, at some level. And yet....not really about the regular Egyptians it seems.

Autonomous Cowherd

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

You answered your question in your closing paragraph.

It all comes down to familiarity and expectation. The more familiar a person is with a location, the more they will respond to events there.

I have never been to Egypt so when an unfortunate event happens there, especially as it's a location of unrest, I am less sensitive to it as I also "expect" to hear about an event of that nature there.

If the same event happens in a location I am more familiar with, I will respond more to it.

Its just the way it is for some people.

On a side note, why would we want to highlight every event of people being blown to fcuk. Its depressing and its not something we can stop. Endless empathy or talking about it wont stop it.

yes, I agree generally with both ideas you offer. But i have never been to Brisbane either or Washington. And if a bomb killed dozens there i would feel ''provoked'' at some bigger level.

Autonomous Cowherd

Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »

I hear Clare Daly, PBP, and Dublin City council are calling for flags to be lowered to half mast tomorrow. Ha just kidding, Coptic Christians don't even register on the identity politics scale.

The bomb attack happened live on Egyptian TV, the exact moment can be seen in this video:
SNIP

Video possibly NSWF.

I won't look at the video. By mistake I looked at the Stockholm twitter link and it was traumatising, to be honest.

Barry Badrinath

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

yes, I agree generally with both ideas you offer. But i have never been to Brisbane either or Washington. And if a bomb killed dozens there i would feel ''provoked'' at some bigger level.

Can you not see the link between Europeans and those from Australia / USA?

We culturally have more in common and can relate more to those locations rather than the ME.

Thats why.

Irish Praetorian

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Looking into it i find New York is 5000km away and Alexandria, Egypt is 6000 km, so I don't think geographical distance is the key. If it was in Auckland or Melbourne we would be convulsed.
So, the distance is something else. Cultural as you suggest, maybe. Which makes me wonder if any of us can be said to have a rational position on anything to do with multi-culturalism, Islamaphobia, wars in ME etc...as we obviously feel quite distant from these issues and their impact on the people in those areas at some fundamental human level.

You raise some intriguing points, it does indeed seem that the 'cultural proximity' is the deciding factor more than the geographic one. What intrigues me in what the implications would be if similar incidents occurred say within such a cultural sub-grouping within a European society - such as say some of the more exclusively Muslim parts of Luton. What little indication we have on the issue suggests that there has been (not to say that there continues to be) a willingness on the part of wider society to overlook these culturally distant communities within Western countries, when it comes to things like the law and religion. Now this may be asking more questions than answering, but I still thing its quite an interesting issue.

[Deleted User]

We can all see ourselves living and working in New York or Brussels. Far fewer of us have living in Egypt as a possibility so it doesn't have as great an impact.

Autonomous Cowherd

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Can you not see the link between Europeans and those from Australia / USA?

We culturally have more in common and can relate more to those locations rather than the ME.

Thats why.

Yes, I can.
Which is why I wonder if there is an ingrained cultural 'monogamy' in humans (or humans as we are presently conditioned) which will make integration of cultures such as is happening now fundamentally difficult for us to process. Or...would it be different if those Egyptian Coptics had been blown up at an organised Coptic festival in London? Would they somehow then have more commonality with us? Or is it really that we feel empathy only if we imagine that we ''could have been there''...ie when we fear for our own skins?

Autonomous Cowherd

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

You raise some intriguing points, it does indeed seem that the 'cultural proximity' is the deciding factor more than the geographic one. What intrigues me in what the implications would be if similar incidents occurred say within such a cultural sub-grouping within a European society - such as say some of the more exclusively Muslim parts of Luton. What little indication we have on the issue suggests that there has been (not to say that there continues to be) a willingness on the part of wider society to overlook these culturally distant communities within Western countries, when it comes to things like the law and religion. Now this may be asking more questions than answering, but I still thing its quite an interesting issue.

Yes, this is sort of what i have been angling at, though I have not formulated a full point of view. I am more examining my own ...hmmmm...self criticism that upon examining and contemplating I had a lesser visceral response to a bomb in Egypt than to the Stockholm killings. This makes me wonder about me as a person/humanitarian.

[Deleted User]

It's a nuanced thing that depends on a number of factors as others have said. Distance, relevance, familiarity, fatigue and coverage are the main components of engagement or lack of.

Something happening far away, to an unfamiliar culture, to people who have no direct connection to us, when we're all ready suffering from compassion fatigue from events that are closer and seem more likely to involve victims like us - it doesn't hit us in the same way because human beings just can't grok with everyone, everywhere, under every circumstances, all of the time.

An example would be several epidemics of Ebolavirus, killing thousands and thousands of poor black people very far away, and while we say 'that's awful!' and mean it, it doesn't resonate with our own experience of life so we're not hurt by it in an emotional way. A few white people from a familiar culture who bring the virus closer to home, and suddenly we're all much more interested in the development of a vaccine, and we pay much more attention to the spread.

Everyone identifies with familiar first, you have to dig that bit deeper to empathize with the unfamiliar.

Barry Badrinath

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Yes, I can.
Which is why I wonder if there is an ingrained cultural 'monogamy' in humans (or humans as we are presently conditioned) which will make integration of cultures such as is happening now fundamentally difficult for us to process. Or...would it be different if those Egyptian Coptics had been blown up at an organised Coptic festival in London? Would they somehow then have more commonality with us? Or is it really that we feel empathy only if we imagine that we ''could have been there''...ie when we fear for our own skins?

I see where you are going with this but I honestly dont think its as deep as that.

I cant speak for everyone though but for me its because of familiarity and expectation, nothing more. Certaintly not from some primordial tribal leftovers from back in the day.

Interesting point though.

Yourself isit

Erik Shin wrote: »

We expect violence in certain areas of the world...When it happens...we aren't surprised, or shocked...... Unfortunately

Increasingly that's Europe. The Swedish incident didn't really get that much chatter relative to previous atrocities. These are coming faster now.

My heart goes out to the copts, a culture older than Islam.

Irish Praetorian

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Yes, this is sort of what i have been angling at, though I have not formulated a full point of view. I am more examining my own ...hmmmm...self criticism that upon examining and contemplating I had a lesser visceral response to a bomb in Egypt than to the Stockholm killings. This makes me wonder about me as a person/humanitarian.

It is worth considering and indeed reflecting upon, but at the same time I don't think we should be too concerned with the moral failing of not experiencing grief in a sufficiently equitable way, when the looming issue is the men willing to blast their countrymen to bits for not having the right religious faith.

Autonomous Cowherd

Candie wrote: »

It's a nuanced thing that depends on a number of factors as others have said. Distance, relevance, familiarity, fatigue and coverage are the main components of engagement or lack of.

Something happening far away, to an unfamiliar culture, to people who have no direct connection to us, when we're all ready suffering from compassion fatigue from events that are closer and seem more likely to involve victims like us - it doesn't hit us in the same way because human beings just can't grok with everyone, everywhere, under every circumstances, all of the time.

An example would be several epidemics of Ebolavirus, killing thousands and thousands of poor black people very far away, and while we say 'that's awful!' and mean it, it doesn't resonate with our own experience of life so we're not hurt by it in an emotional way. A few white people from a familiar culture who bring the virus closer to home, and suddenly we're all much more interested in the development of a vaccine, and we pay much more attention to the spread.

Everyone identifies with familiar first, you have to dig that bit deeper to empathize with the unfamiliar.

A lot there that also makes sense.

Yet, if the latest bomb had been more local we would certainly have overcome our compassion fatigue and risen to the occasion once more.

Human beings not being able to grok with everyone - especially as you wrote those not ''like us'' - is a very interesting humanitarian dilemma. One that perhaps recent political correctness is not taking into account. Are we in essence not as cosmopolitan and globalist and modern as we might like to think/hope we are?

Autonomous Cowherd

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I see where you are going with this but I honestly dont think its as deep as that.

I cant speak for everyone though but for me its because of familiarity and expectation, nothing more. Certaintly not from some primordial tribal leftovers from back in the day.

Interesting point though.

Yes, i sort of expected that familiarity and/or expectation would feature as prominent explanations. And they are likely to be high on the scale of causation. However i genuinely do not think they are the whole story....and ...yeah...I kind of wonder if it is not possibly something deeper (and darker)that we would not like to acknowledge.

It's not just in this case. I mean we can listen to casualty numbers in Iraq or Rwanda rounded up to the nearest million and still eat our toast and drink our tea.

Barry Badrinath

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Yes, i sort of expected that familiarity and/or expectation would feature as prominent explanations. And they are likely to be high on the scale of causation. However i genuinely do not think they are the whole story....and ...yeah...I kind of wonder if it is not possibly something deeper (and darker)that we would not like to acknowledge.

It's not just in this case. I mean we can listen to casualty numbers in Iraq or Rwanda rounded up to the nearest million and still eat our toast and drink our tea.

As I have said, I only speak for myself and how I see the world.

I have served on UN and EU military missions overseas in Africa and the Middle East. When I hear of something happening in the countries / cities that I have served in, I respond to them as I am familiar with them.

I am not part of their "tribe", I have no cultural similarity to them, I share few commonalities with them but I care as I am familiar with them. Thats just how it works for me though.

It will be different for others.

[Deleted User]

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

As I have said, I only speak for myself and how I see the world.

I have served on UN and EU military missions overseas in Africa and the Middle East. When I hear of something happening in the countries / cities that I have served in, I respond to them as I am familiar with them.

I am not part of their "tribe", I have no cultural similarity to them, I share few commonalities with them but I care as I am familiar with them. Thats just how it works for me though.

It will be different for others.

I'd be the same. I've gotten to know Egypt pretty well in the last few years, and feel it more personally now when some atrocity happens than I would have before.

It's just human nature to care more about what you know, even if we do try to extend it to the wider human family, as civilized people try to do, it's easier to do it with the familiar.

Autonomous Cowherd

Candie wrote: »

I'd be the same. I've gotten to know Egypt pretty well in the last few years, and feel it more personally now when some atrocity happens than I would have before.

It's just human nature to care more about what you know, even if we do try to extend it to the wider human family, as civilized people try to do, it's easier to do it with the familiar.

Yes, I have to agree that you and Senor Fancy Pants are most likely correct about the familiarity thing, whether it is that we have been to the place or that we share some cultural history - eg European immigration to that place long ago.

It's just a bit of throw back thing though, isn't it, in the global village sense of things? Like, we can admire images of nature from Sierra Leone and the awesomeness of the Pyramids, and feel some level of familiarity with so many places because of a globalised media, but really when it comes down to flesh and bones and blood we are still operating within somehow narrower parameters. I wonder if we really felt the impact of the deaths of human beings no matter where, all of us, then maybe the endless human-caused suffering of war and poverty and preventable disease would come to an end sooner.
This absence or diminution of empathy - no matter how apparently rational - has wider implications.

BorneTobyWilde

All I know is inhumane people should lose their human rights. We can't be waiting for these attacks and then finding out we knew all along who it was behind them, but we did not act as they had rights too.
Some of they acts we see are not human, they are inhumane. SO **** the human rights of terrorists!
People complain about waterboarding of terrorists but are happy to sit back and watch them destroy lives.

Widdershins

Others have answered better than I can. People become numbed to it when it happens constantly and that's what is happening in Egypt. I think it's a natural self protection mechanism. If we didn't have this way to numb our reactions to hearing about constant terror, we'd barely be functioning from depression.

I try to share the news from Egypt and the Middle East on Facebook. I don't think we should forget how much they are going through, even though it is a sad 'normality' for them now. But I don't have the same numbness when I hear of it in Europe. I'm worried that people soon will have the same numb reaction now that it is becoming commonplace.

Widdershins

Yourself isit wrote: »

Increasingly that's Europe. The Swedish incident didn't really get that much chatter relative to previous atrocities. These are coming faster now.

My heart goes out to the copts, a culture older than Islam.

Same. And the Bahai..most reviled by Fanatics and Islamists..and the Yazidis..ISIS loath almost everyone.

masculinist

so its a long way away mentally as well as physically and not really understood by most Irish people . So why does the Irish media have such a hard on for Ibrahim Halawa who is obviously connected with the Muslim Brotherhood which has ties to ISIL/Daesh. The same Daesh which is persecuting , raping, exploding and murdering Coptic Christians ?

Atoms for Peace

Alexandria was once one of the great centres of western knowledge and culture and continued too be so even after its fall to the Rashidun Caliphate, sad to see the current Coptic population under attack from such utter human waste.

Barry Badrinath

masculinist wrote: »

so its a long way away mentally as well as physically and not really understood by most Irish people . So why does the Irish media have such a hard on for Ibrahim Halawa who is obviously connected with the Muslim Brotherhood which has ties to ISIL/Daesh. The same Daesh which is persecuting , raping, exploding and murdering Coptic Christians ?

Reporting news stories of national interest (Halawa is an Irish passport holder, hence Irish interest) is no equivilancy of your example as it has a direct connection with us here. You completely missed the point.

On a side note, I agree completely with you about Halawa. We know why he was there no matter how many times the family try to pull the wool over the Irish soppyhearted eyes. He looked for trouble, he got it. He broke the law of their land and must face the consequences.

However, he should face trial instead of being indefinately detained. This makes it a job for the Irish Governments to sort out.

masculinist

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Reporting news stories of national interest (Halawa is an Irish passport holder, hence Irish interest) is no equivilancy of your example as it has a direct connection with us here. You completely missed the point.

On a side note, I agree completely with you about Halawa. We know why he was there no matter how many times the family try to pull the wool over the Irish soppyhearted eyes. He looked for trouble, he got it. He broke the law of their land and must face the consequences.

However, he should face trial instead of being indefinately detained. This makes it a job for the Irish Governments to sort out.

Ah but there is an equivalency. You must not have heard about the Corkman who will probably die in prison because he refused to pay a bribe and as a result had a tiny piece of marijuana planted in his luggage the second time it was searched. (not the first time)

https://www.joe.ie/news/video-this-irishman-has-been-wrongly-sentenced-to-12-years-in-a-philippines-jail-504548

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-government-refusing-help-cork-man-philippines-drugs-2996335-Oct2016/

There is a huge sound of crickets chirping from the Oireachtas and media with regard to Eanna which is an extremely sharp contrast to the deference to Islam (apparently not learning anything from the past deference to Catholicism) and mock outrage they express with regard to a man holding an Egyptian passport who went to support the Muslim brotherhood and start an argument with the government of a foreign country. Halawa went to Egypt as an Egyptian and as a Muslim to subvert and protest against its government. He did not go as an Irishman. Anyone using an Irish passport as cover to interfere in the affairs of a foreign country is disrespecting what it stands for, its neutrality and doesnt deserve to hold it in my opinion