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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

sparrowcar

Contact lost just before 0100 off the west coast of Achill island on a rescue mission.
Search in progress including all available ships and Rescue 115.

Hopefully a positive outcome to this.

Please keep replies civil, and respectful of the crew and their families.

Please do not speculate as to any cause unless you have a factual basis to do so (and can back it up with information released to the public).

There will be zero tolerance for troublemakers or those that choose to ignore these guidelines.

There are other moderator messages in the thread, as a result of issues that have arisen, and we will be less forgiving going forward, due to the ongoing sensitivity of this incident

As per normal boards guidance, any comments on moderation are off topic and should be addressed directly to mods or cmods by PM. Any part of posts which are off topic in such a manner may be edited or removed, with possible sanction. Non news posts will be moved to the parallel R116 Non news and discussion thread

Should any new reports, updates or news stories come out, posts which can be boiled down to "I Told You So" or other triumphalism about previous commentary will result in significant punishment.

Any threadbans will carry over to any replacement thread should this approach 10,000 posts

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Gaoth Laidir

kerry cow wrote: »

Bodies sink when they drownd and float 10 days later .so they surfaced somewhere after 10 days and are floating now in current .I think the resucue efforts took their eye off the ball and spent all their hopes and efforts on the crash site instead of surface searches after the 10 day period .

So what do.ypu think they were doing with all those coastal and area searches for days on end? Thousands of search kilometres at this stage.

faoiarvok

kerry cow wrote: »

Why do crew not have gps trackers fitted like gaa sports stars have tracking their pitch movement .
Wear it around your next at all times .It's not the dark ages now .!!

Those systems have a limited battery life and either need to be plugged in to a computer to sync, or synced wirelessly over a relatively short range. They would most certainly not work underwater.

The crew did have personal locator beacons that should be picked up either by satellite or direction finding equipment on board rescue vessels or aircraft, as was discussed at length earlier in the thread. There has been some debate over whether they were required to be manually activated rather than activating automatically on immersion, or some other theories on why a signal from these beacons was not received.

Means Of Escape

It's a pity for the family of the crewmen that they have not been found as it is very consoling for some to have a grave to visit in their locality rather than a beach close to the tragedy and far from their own homes .
As stated here by others it will be down to chance that their remains are spotted on the surface or maybe later on the year their garments will be found washed up on a beach .
They will scale the search team size down as the days pass .
The family are well aware of that and im sure understanding of this due to the unlikelihood of they ever being found only by default if if pushed into the 5th week .

Efforts to find them shouldn't hinge on cost
That cost evaporates over time and is shared by the nation who have a debt of gratitude to those who died .

L1011

fiachr_a wrote: »

I don't care who owns our media, recent rescue deaths here could have been avoided. No-one should be risking their lives to find a dead body in bad weather or to help a man only missing a finger. As for idiots stuck up mountains, charge the f--k out of their families to get them rescued.

I would imagine that you'd have a rather different opinion should you ever need assistance.

BoatMad

Originally Posted by fiachr_a View Post
I don't care who owns our media, recent rescue deaths here could have been avoided. No-one should be risking their lives to find a dead body in bad weather or to help a man only missing a finger. As for idiots stuck up mountains, charge the f--k out of their families to get them rescued.

I recently stepped down from a voluntary management position involving sea based SAR

It cannot be a situation where rescue services have to play God, it remains the case that most rescue agencies would rather launch and deal with trivial injuries ( or a hoax ) then adjudicate on whether a launch is justified. ( or not launch and have a fatality as a result )

It could be as easy too underestimate a casualties condition as much as to over estimate it

I personally, many years ago, was involved in a situation , where someone felt an injury was not initially that serious . the result was his dad died!.

Hence anger directed at the casualty , even where such injuries may or may not have in reality justified a SAR callout is mis-placed.

SAR personel are doing a job , they receive possibly the best training that can be given and typically some of the finest equipment. Heroism and Bravery have actually no part in any SAR activity . its the exact opposite of " have a go heroes", what you see is quiet professionalism and the effect of dedicated training and scenario planning.

Within those parameters , the nature of SAR especially over or on water , can generate situations that can overcome rescuers. This fact doesn't relate to the severity of the condition of the casualty

BoatMad

Efforts to find them shouldn't hinge on cost
That cost evaporates over time and is shared by the nation who have a debt of gratitude to those who died .

Unfortunately , with a recovery of remains, cost or rather the continuous allocation of specialised personnel and equipment, does play a factor , it was always so .

BoatMad

I'd like to make a comment about the nature of " speculation "

its one thing to engage in wild accusations in the absence of detailed facts. however I do think that an abstract discussion of the potential " perceived " things that may have gone wrong is still useful. it would be entirely wrong to progress such speculation to attaching blame, thats not something that should be attempted here.

deaddonkey15

Perhaps a bit off topic, but this really doesn't sit right with me: https://www.facebook.com/Castletroypark/photos/gm.1162922947180037/1630037460358010/?type=3&theater.

No mention at all of Mark Duffy. For the last few weeks I couldn't help but get the impression through the media that Dara Fitzpatrick is almost the poster girl, for lack of a better term, for this tragedy. Whether that was because she was the first found and therefore the first face associated with the tragedy or that she was such a highly regarded woman in what is a male dominated profession I don't know. There were 4 people on that helicopter They all had names, faces and important jobs to do and they should all be remembered equally.

Dwarf.Shortage

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Perhaps a bit off topic, but this really doesn't sit right with me: https://www.facebook.com/Castletroypark/photos/gm.1162922947180037/1630037460358010/?type=3&theater.

No mention at all of Mark Duffy. For the last few weeks I couldn't help but get the impression through the media that Dara Fitzpatrick is almost the poster girl, for lack of a better term, for this tragedy. Whether that was because she was the first found and therefore the first face associated with the tragedy or that she was such a highly regarded woman in what is a male dominated profession I don't know. There were 4 people on that helicopter They all had names, faces and important jobs to do and they should all be remembered equally.

The event description is not very well thought out at all

"In Memory of Dara Fitzpatrick and to aid the search for her two colleagues a coffee morning will take place in the Garden Room at Castletroy Park Hotel. All donations to RNLI"

As you said, makes it sound like there was three of them.

elastico

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Perhaps a bit off topic, but this really doesn't sit right with me: https://www.facebook.com/Castletroypark/photos/gm.1162922947180037/1630037460358010/?type=3&theater.

No mention at all of Mark Duffy. For the last few weeks I couldn't help but get the impression through the media that Dara Fitzpatrick is almost the poster girl, for lack of a better term, for this tragedy. Whether that was because she was the first found and therefore the first face associated with the tragedy or that she was such a highly regarded woman in what is a male dominated profession I don't know. There were 4 people on that helicopter They all had names, faces and important jobs to do and they should all be remembered equally.

She used live in Limerick and was involved in the hospice down the road from that hotel. Not sure if that why the emphasis is on her but I see your point.

deaddonkey15

elastico wrote: »

She used live in Limerick and was involved in the hospice down the road from that hotel. Not sure if that why the emphasis is on her but I see your point.

If that's true then it's more understandable. I still think it's a bit disrespectful to not have Mark Duffy's name mentioned.

faoiarvok

fiachr_a wrote: »

As for idiots stuck up mountains, charge the f--k out of their families to get them rescued.

And ensure that only rich people can afford to get lost/injured in the hills?

knucklehead6

faoiarvok wrote: »

And ensure that only rich people can afford to get lost/injured in the hills?

I've already had a post deleted for responding to him. In fairness I was a lot less circumspect about my opinion.

I wouldn't bother engaging with him.

faoiarvok

knucklehead6 wrote: »

I've already had a post deleted for responding to him. In fairness I was a lot less circumspect about my opinion.

I wouldn't bother engaging with him.

Fair, I should know better

Samsgirl

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

If that's true then it's more understandable. I still think it's a bit disrespectful to not have Mark Duffy's name mentioned.

I just sent an email to the fb page saying just that. Might give them a call in the morning too. Possibly an innocent omission but could be hurtful for the family of Mark Duffy.

spaceHopper

kerry cow wrote: »

Bodies sink when they drownd and float 10 days later .so they surfaced somewhere after 10 days and are floating now in current .I think the resucue efforts took their eye off the ball and spent all their hopes and efforts on the crash site instead of surface searches after the 10 day period .
Why do crew not have gps trackers fitted like gaa sports stars have tracking their pitch movement .
Wear it around your next at all times .It's not the dark ages now .!!

The Navy and Gards did the diving... but evey day the RNLI and cost guard have been out searching the cost line, they never stopped.

Tenger

Samsgirl wrote: »

I just sent an email to the fb page saying just that. Might give them a call in the morning too. Possibly an innocent omission but could be hurtful for the family of Mark Duffy.

Just clicking on the link there now. It says "....and the search for her colleagues" No number stated.
Could be that it was organised before Capt. Mark Duffy was recovered? With flyers printed?

Samsgirl

Tenger wrote: »

Just clicking on the link there now. It says "....and the search for her colleagues" No number stated.
Could be that it was organised before Capt. Mark Duffy was recovered? With flyers printed?

I saw that too but if you click into the event it does say two colleagues.

Samsgirl

You can see it here. Im sure they will amend it.

kippy

Samsgirl wrote: »

You can see it here. Im sure they will amend it.

Is't the search for her two colleagues?

Not sure why people are bothered about this either way tbh.....

Samsgirl

kippy wrote: »

Is't the search for her two colleagues?

Not sure why people are bothered about this either way tbh.....

Do you not think it was a bit disrespectful not to acknowledge all of the crew? It's a lovely sentiment to have the event but it was a 4 person crew, not 3 and reading this one would presume it was it was.3.

kippy

Samsgirl wrote: »

Do you not think it was a bit disrespectful not to acknowledge all of the crew? It's a lovely sentiment to have the event but it was a 4 person crew, not 3 and reading this one would presume it was it was.3.

One might, if one was living in a cave in the remotest Afghanistan for the past month or so.
It clearly states the "search for two of her colleagues" - which is what the operation is now.

Either way, I don't really think any of the effected people will take offense to it - they have far more serious worries.

Samsgirl

kippy wrote: »

One might, if one was living in a cave in the remotest Afghanistan for the past month or so.
It clearly states the "search for two of her colleagues" - which is what the operation is now.

Either way, I don't really think any of the effected people will take offense to it - they have far more serious worries.

Steve

Touching post from rescue 115 here:

https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/posts/1829883597261835

vicwatson

Steve wrote: »

Touching post from rescue 115 here:

https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/posts/1829883597261835

All a bit too deep religious for me. God and prayers won't find these heroes. I hope they are returned soon to their families.

BoatMad

faoiarvok wrote: »

Those systems have a limited battery life and either need to be plugged in to a computer to sync, or synced wirelessly over a relatively short range. They would most certainly not work underwater.

The crew did have personal locator beacons that should be picked up either by satellite or direction finding equipment on board rescue vessels or aircraft, as was discussed at length earlier in the thread. There has been some debate over whether they were required to be manually activated rather than activating automatically on immersion, or some other theories on why a signal from these beacons was not received.

personal locator beacons , these days have integrated gps, They transmit gps coordinates on the 406MHz signal , providing very fast first fix times . As an offshore sailor I regularly carry mine

Most are manually triggered because of the issues in wet or damp environments , anyway they are mostly " body recovery " devices rather then life saving equipment. They do not work underwater and in fact work poorly on the surface.

All rnli crews were issued with them recently, but really they rely on the user being alive , arguably in the structest sense , body recovery is far less important then life saving

Irish Steve

I took a couple of days out for a number of reasons, and some of what I have seen over that time requires comment.

Post about the ownership of Boards.ie and other media sites are NOT appropriate to this thread, any repeats will be an automatic ban.

I have seen, and quote here, with added emphasis, a very clear post from a person directly involved in SAR that expresses the sentiments about the nature, experience and skill of the R116 crew in a much better way than I have been able to do.

Some of the suggested reasons for the crash over the last few days disrespect the crew, and have been removed by other moderators, we will have to wait for AAIU to finally determine the reason for the loss of R116, and what I can be sure of is that it will not be a single event, there will be a very complex set of circumstances that combined to cause this.

And in passing, to clear up any possibly misunderstandings, I am making those comments on the basis of professional experience in designing and preparing scenarios for flight simulator research sessions that were specifically designed to be "swiss cheese" situations, they were not being used to catch crews out, they were part of a very complex human factors research programme that was carried out by (among others ) British Aerospace, so I am prepared to be specific with my comments.

BoatMad wrote: »

I recently stepped down from a voluntary management position involving sea based SAR

SAR personel are doing a job , they receive possibly the best training that can be given and typically some of the finest equipment. Heroism and Bravery have actually no part in any SAR activity . its the exact opposite of " have a go heroes", what you see is quiet professionalism and the effect of dedicated training and scenario planning.

I'd like to make a comment about the nature of " speculation "

its one thing to engage in wild accusations in the absence of detailed facts. however I do think that an abstract discussion of the potential " perceived " things that may have gone wrong is still useful. it would be entirely wrong to progress such speculation to attaching blame, thats not something that should be attempted here.

That's about as clear as it can be, so going forward from here.

Posts about the recovery operation, movements of boats and similar are not an issue, and can be put in the thread.

Posts that suggest "they pressed this button" are speculation, and not appropriate.

Posts about the validity or otherwise of the reasons for the call out do not belong here, and will be deleted, and possibly infracted.

2 of the crew of 116 are still missing, and it is now clear that their whereabouts are unknown. Please be mindful that people close to the families are reading this thread, and their already fragile emotions do not need to be stirred even more by inappropriate or insensitive posts made here.

I cannot control what other media sources allow. Within the clear guidelines that have been laid down by the senior moderators here, I can and will act accordingly.

Storm 10

vicwatson wrote: »

All a bit too deep religious for me. God and prayers won't find these heroes. I hope they are returned soon to their families.

I'm sure its very comforting for their families to see the prayers and messages left for them and how it has touched the Nation.

jmayo

vicwatson wrote: »

All a bit too deep religious for me. God and prayers won't find these heroes. I hope they are returned soon to their families.

I am not religious and personally find a lot of it mullarkey.

But I have seen a family left for days searching for a loved one and their religious faith helped them cope with those dark days and when ultimately the body was discovered.
If prayer and faith help them through it then so be it.

The victims and their families are in the thoughts of many people and the way they express this is by saying they are in their prayers.
Simple as that.

qhe0i9zvfgdou8

vicwatson wrote:

All a bit too deep religious for me. God and prayers won't find these heroes. I hope they are returned soon to their families.

With all due respect if God and prayers won't do any good it certainly won't do any harm. Don't think it's up to you what gives people hope and some kind of comfort at a time like this.
I too hope they're found soon for their families sake.