Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Just listened to Jurgen Whyte on the radio now and it's pretty clear; no mechanical anomalies, therefore the only way part of the aircraft could be on Blackrock is by the aircraft hitting it, i.e. CFIT. Now the question is why.

The reason won't be made public until the report comes out. Best way to deal with it too because of the way the muppets in the media will spin it.
There won't be much discussion on it here either, anytime it was mentioned it would be deleted or jumped on by people outraged at such a thought. Which is unfortunate because it was always a valid point.
With the way modern aircraft are, mechanical failure which leads to a loss of life these days is nowhere near as common as it used to be.
Flight crews are human at the end of the day.

Calina

The question has always been why the helicopter hit Blackrock. I would be nervous enough about asserting CFIT even now however particularly without knowing what the wreckage on the island consisted of and how exactly impact happened/was laid out/located.

FixdePitchmark

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Just listened to Jurgen Whyte on the radio now and it's pretty clear; no mechanical anomalies, therefore the only way part of the aircraft could be on Blackrock is by the aircraft hitting it, i.e. CFIT. Now the question is why.

It is a strange thing to say at this stage without full examination of helicopter ?

The basis of this is perhaps study of alarms and position indication of instrumentation ?

Did he say no mechanical instrumentation or control failure.

How can you say only way . There is more to flight than mechanical ?

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It is a strange thing to say at this stage without full examination of helicopter ?

The basis of this is perhaps study of alarms and position indication of instrumentation ?

Did he say no mechanical instrumentation or control failure.

How can you say only way . There is more to flight than mechanical ?

Well, if the aircraft was mechanically perfect how else would it crash?

Gaoth Laidir

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It is a strange thing to say at this stage without full examination of helicopter ?

The basis of this is perhaps study of alarms and position indication of instrumentation ?

Did he say no mechanical instrumentation or control failure.

How can you say only way . There is more to flight than mechanical ?

I should clarify that what I said about CFIT are my own words. Jurgen said no mechanical anomalies and they're now looking at human factors and operational issues.

Buffman

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Just on the 90 versus 9 knots issue. The image showing 9 knots was only one image posted on pprune about 2 weeks ago. I don't think anyone has accessed that information from MT now. As far as I know MT is showing 90 knots and that's it, or am I wrong? Has anyone gotten 9 knots recently?

Just on that, we discussed the MT speed discrepancy a few weeks ago and I'm still getting the same as I posted back then. (On a pc browser, not the app).

Buffman wrote: »

Originally Posted by Gaoth Laidir
It was 90 knots but I have seen a later fix of 9 knots posted on pprune

Originally Posted by sparrowcar
Fix from 90 to 9kts or an amend from 90 to +/- 9kts (as in to 81 or 99kts)
Serious question, hard to explain what I'm asking.

It appears there is a discrepancy with the speed on the last AIS position report on Marinetraffic. For me, speed shows as 90kn in one section and 9kn in another. It could be an IT issue.

Edit: The second link may not work unless Marinetraffic is already open, but the below 9kn version comes up if I click the red 'latest position' link on the map in the first link.

ted1

kona wrote: »

Well, if the aircraft was mechanically perfect how else would it crash?

Do electrinic and electrical systems fall under the mechanical banner?

Calina wrote: »

The question has always been why the helicopter hit Blackrock. I would be nervous enough about asserting CFIT even now however particularly without knowing what the wreckage on the island consisted of and how exactly impact happened/was laid out/located.

The question is, why was the aircraft that low, that fast, that close to a rock in the middle of the sea.
If there was a failure of something and it's your last chance then it's definatley understandable.
Now it's known that the aircraft was not damaged, those questions become a bit more worrying.

Gadgetman496

I just listened to a local radio news item containing an interview with one of the investigators in which he described the condition of the wreckage recovered yesterday. It's the first time I've heard any mention of the actual condition of the wreckage and it pretty much explained the difficulty the team had dealing with it so far under water.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It is a strange thing to say at this stage without full examination of helicopter ?

The basis of this is perhaps study of alarms and position indication of instrumentation ?

Did he say no mechanical instrumentation or control failure.

How can you say only way . There is more to flight than mechanical ?

The cockpit voice recorder may have revealed all. There may be no need for an examination of the machine or any other alarms. Yes there are loads of small things that could have avoided such a tragic outcome but its sounds like that by the time they realised they were at the wrong destination it was too late to take corrective action.

ted1 wrote: »

Do electrinic and electrical systems fall under the mechanical banner?

Well the information off the back box will be fed via the flight systems which control the mechanical parts of the aircraft.

So by them saying no mechanical anomalies I'd read that as the aircraft was serviceable, electrically and mechanically.

Cloudio9

ted1 wrote: »

Do electrinic and electrical systems fall under the mechanical banner?

Yes, these would all report faults if not working working correctly which would be on the FDR.

The FDR will show that the helicopter behaved in accordance with the control inputs made by the pilots which is why he is talking about operational issues.

Operational doesn't just mean pilot behaviour. e.g. One operational area of focus would be if they were following a standard approach and if that approach is potentially flawed in that it put them at risk of hitting the island.

kona wrote: »

The question is, why was the aircraft that low, that fast, that close to a rock in the middle of the sea.
If there was a failure of something and it's your last chance then it's definatley understandable.
Now it's known that the aircraft was not damaged, those questions become a bit more worrying.

There are 2 conflicting figures relating to the speed. One is 9knots the other 90 knots. One or both may be wrong.

The 9 knots comes from marine traffic as does the 90 knots.

deaddonkey15

elastico wrote: »

There are 2 conflicting figures relating to the speed. One is 9knots the other 90 knots. One or both may be wrong.

The 9 knots comes from marine traffic as does the 90 knots.

I checked last night on my laptop. If you search SAR250002899 on MT you will get 90kts on the resulting page under the latest position section. If you then click on the map view for latest position it gives it as 9kts.

elastico wrote: »

There are 2 conflicting figures relating to the speed. One is 9knots the other 90 knots. One or both may be wrong.

The 9 knots comes from marine traffic as does the 90 knots.

I'd say that's a gremlin on the apps side. Theye fdr will have all the correct information.

browner85

Is r116 still on the deck of granuaile?

browner85 wrote: »

Is r116 still on the deck of granuaile?

Last I heard from RTE last night was Granuaile will bring it to a secret location for unloading in the next few days. How they plan to hide such a large vessel in a port is beyond me!

kerry cow

What's with the big secret .are rte shying away from covering the news with footage or the papers seem all hus hus on the topic .
Cameras can zoom in from miles away.
All seems a little odd , usual story with the state .All a bit area 51 to me

Coil Kilcrea

elastico wrote: »

Last I heard from RTE last night was Granuaile will bring it to a secret location for unloading in the next few days. How they plan to hide such a large vessel in a port is beyond me!

True. I suppose they're trying to avoid curious onlookers and be respectful.

ED E

elastico wrote: »

Last I heard from RTE last night was Granuaile will bring it to a secret location for unloading in the next few days. How they plan to hide such a large vessel in a port is beyond me!

Is the Naval Yard in Cork not segregated? Bit of a trip but would be private.

ted1

ED E wrote: »

Is the Naval Yard in Cork not segregated? Bit of a trip but would be private.

On then on to Gormanstown? Better off using Dublin port or Drogheda or similar.

If it's a secret will they turn off the AIS?

Gadgetman496

elastico wrote: »

Last I heard from RTE last night was Granuaile will bring it to a secret location for unloading in the next few days. How they plan to hide such a large vessel in a port is beyond me!

Apparently it is not as large as you might expect it to be.

ted1 wrote: »

If it's a secret will they turn off the AIS?

Maritime law won't allow them to.

Gadgetman496

There is a description of what they did recover form Jurgen Whyte over on the P forum.

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Apparently it is not as large as you might expect it to be.

True, I've seen it and its not actually that big. I suppose best thing is cruise along the coast, detour into port of choice at last minute, have everything ready and be unloaded before a posse turns up.

Not necessarily the way it'll work. They could quite easily just bring it around to Dublin port and go in to Alexandra basin and unload there at night and then drive it up to GOR. They'd be up in GOR in less than an hour through the port tunnel. I don't know where this whole "secret" location came from, was the word secret actually used or not disclosed location. Like you say it'll be to avoid a media scrum, not that they'll likely see more than a giant tarp or a container.

Gaoth Laidir

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not necessarily the way it'll work. They could quite easily just bring it around to Dublin port and go in to Alexandra basin and unload there at night and then drive it up to GOR. They'd be up in GOR in less than an hour through the port tunnel. I don't know where this whole "secret" location came from, was the word secret actually used or not disclosed location. Like you say it'll be to avoid a media scrum, not that they'll likely see more than a giant tarp or a container.

They said undisclosed

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/deep-disappointment-at-failure-to-find-missing-rescue-116-airmen-1.3034179

The rotor head, main gear box, one engine and “associated” pieces will be taken by sea on the Granuaile to an undisclosed location, and transported to Gormanston, Co Meath for further examination by the investigation team.

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

They said undisclosed

Cheers, very easy to use Alexandra Basin as it's a somewhat "secure" location and it's protected from prying eyes by the P&O pier south of it and all the trailers.

kippy

I wonder if anything can be drawn from the current location of the Granuaile and Ocean Challanger - neither in blacksod bay anymore and the ocean challanger appears to be in a search pattern - both ships closer to Achill than they have been.