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Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

Lenton Lane

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end of the road

thomasj wrote: »

If you cannot fill a 4-coach intercity train on a commuter service, there is something seriously wrong.

Commuter trains on maynooth line and northern line carry 3-4 times the capacity of an intercity railcar set.

Docklands trains sure are leaving people behind on platforms because these trains they are using haven't got the capacity.

In fairness though it is a start but tbh you shouldn't be using intercity trains on a commuter line.

correct. of course this is well known by all but as i have said time and time again don't expect it to change. IE'S shambolic operational whatever in terms of how it uses it's stock comes before actual realities on the railway.

Marlay

cowboyjoe wrote: »

At this stage there are no seats left by Clondalkin, and standing room only on the evening return I'm on.

Is that standing room only in the evening from GCD? Had been thinking of trying this route, but that doesn't sound great.

I'd look at going to Heuston, but the evening times to Hazelhatch are fairly rubbish. Why no train between 16:40 and 17:28? And then nothing again until 18:05!

kc56

Marlay wrote: »

Is that standing room only in the evening from GCD? Had been thinking of trying this route, but that doesn't sound great.

I'd look at going to Heuston, but the evening times to Hazelhatch are fairly rubbish. Why no train between 16:40 and 17:28? And then nothing again until 18:05!

No - Connolly. Loads of room at Tara St. I think it applies more to the Newbridge than the Hazelhatch trains; lots of demand from Sallins.

tabbey

I was on this service this morning, 0749 ex GCD, return on 0835 from Hazelhatch. A four car ICR.

I had expected the 0835 to be well patronised, but my vehicle was at most a quarter full, even between Parkwest and Drumcondra.

Another ICR called at Hazelhatch about 0830, about 90% full, with people from Sallins, Newbridge etc. Given the provincial bus strike, this did not seem as busy as it might be.

Perhaps some of the earlier trains are more loaded, but on the DART route and northern commuter services, trains are jammed until well after 0900.

thomasj

irish rail said a couple of days ago that the bus eireann strike was having a particular affect on maynooth and m3 services

spacetweek

Are we any closer to having 4 trains per hour at peak?

L1011

thomasj wrote: »

irish rail said a couple of days ago that the bus eireann strike was having a particular affect on maynooth and m3 services

It has certainly increased traffic on services beyond Maynooth and dodgy parking near Maynooth station. I could easily imagine M3 park and rides being used more too.

aodh_rua

The GCD train leaving Newbridge at 07:20 is standing room only from Hazelhatch most mornings.

I've pretty much abandoned the evening service. Leaving Pearse St on the 145 bus at the same time as the 16:43 train gets you to Heuston in time for the 17:10, and gets you to Newbridge 15/20 minutes earlier.

thomasj

aodh_rua wrote:

The GCD train leaving Newbridge at 07:20 is standing room only from Hazelhatch most mornings.

It's not a nice train to be standing on...
.......

[Deleted User]

aodh_rua wrote: »

The GCD train leaving Newbridge at 07:20 is standing room only from Hazelhatch most mornings.

I've pretty much abandoned the evening service. Leaving Pearse St on the 145 bus at the same time as the 16:43 train gets you to Heuston in time for the 17:10, and gets you to Newbridge 15/20 minutes earlier.

Hi, do you have a Newbridge to Pearse St PTP annual ticket? And if so, I presume it works on the 145 bus / Luas and allows you get trains from Heuston?

I have a weekly one to Tara St. Will try and get the annual Taxsaver in a month or two. Do you know if the weekly ticket will let me on the 145 bus and get the 1710 train from Heuston? I agree that the evening service via the tunnel is quite slow

aodh_rua

NewbridgeIR wrote: »

Hi, do you have a Newbridge to Pearse St PTP annual ticket? And if so, I presume it works on the 145 bus / Luas and allows you get trains from Heuston?

I have a weekly one to Tara St. Will try and get the annual Taxsaver in a month or two. Do you know if the weekly ticket will let me on the 145 bus and get the 1710 train from Heuston? I agree that the evening service via the tunnel is quite slow

I have an annual Heuston plus feeder ticket, which includes Luas, 145 and trains through the tunnel.

Unfortunately, Irish Rail haven't programmed the barriers at Pearse to accept the ticket (even though it's legitimate), so you need to find a staff member or potentially tailgate to get out of the station.

My ticket was issued in December, but I think they now issue point to point tickets from Newbridge to Pearse, Tara and GCD, so the barrier issue shouldn't arise for you. You might need to still pay the feeder extra for the bus and Luas (similar to the Heuston P2P plus feeder we're used to).

[Deleted User]

Hi Aodh
Thanks for your reply
Irish Rail Taxsaver told me to select a Newbridge to Tara St P2P when applying for the annual ticket. So hopefully that should allow me use bus / luas as well as PPT. Morning is fine going to Tara St but evenings the times are better from Heuston.

I am currently using weekly tickets so will try and board a 145 DB this afternoon as I want to get an earlier train from Heuston. If they say no, I'll just pay the cash fare.

kc56

aodh_rua wrote: »

I have an annual Heuston plus feeder ticket, which includes Luas, 145 and trains through the tunnel.

Unfortunately, Irish Rail haven't programmed the barriers at Pearse to accept the ticket (even though it's legitimate), so you need to find a staff member or potentially tailgate to get out of the station.

My ticket was issued in December, but I think they now issue point to point tickets from Newbridge to Pearse, Tara and GCD, so the barrier issue shouldn't arise for you. You might need to still pay the feeder extra for the bus and Luas (similar to the Heuston P2P plus feeder we're used to).

Feeder bus is included with the P2P to GCD. So it's either/or train or feeder as you wish. My tickets works at all stations to GCD and on the Luas/145.

LXFlyer

spacetweek wrote: »

Are we any closer to having 4 trains per hour at peak?

I don't think you will see 4 trains per hour - this was a misconception from the outset. There simply isn't the rolling stock to deliver it.

The refurbishment of the 2700s has not yet been approved by the NTA, and even when it is, it's going to take some time. The resulting set cascade would focus I would imagine on the Maynooth/M3 lines, and the Northern line where capacity is at a premium.

Any improvement on the PPT route would be to launch the off-peak service, but that is dependent upon sufficient drivers being available to operate it.

In any case, the next timetable change is not likely to happen until December.

spacetweek

Thanks lxflyer.

What about DARTs every 10 minutes?

LXFlyer

spacetweek wrote: »

Thanks lxflyer.

What about DARTs every 10 minutes?

Put on ice whilst the ongoing IE industrial relations talks continue.

It won't happen until they conclude and even then probably not until the end of the year at the earliest.

L1011

And be prepared for utter, utter mayhem for months after they do...

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't think you will see 4 trains per hour - this was a misconception from the outset. There simply isn't the rolling stock to deliver it.

The refurbishment of the 2700s has not yet been approved by the NTA, and even when it is, it's going to take some time. The resulting set cascade would focus I would imagine on the Maynooth/M3 lines, and the Northern line where capacity is at a premium.

Any improvement on the PPT route would be to launch the off-peak service, but that is dependent upon sufficient drivers being available to operate it.

In any case, the next timetable change is not likely to happen until December.

I don't recall there ever been a plan for 4 per hour, 3 currently is more than adequate and will be long term. N Commuter and Maynooth barley get 3-4 services at peak hours.

AngryLips

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don't recall there ever been a plan for 4 per hour, 3 currently is more than adequate and will be long term. N Commuter and Maynooth barley get 3-4 services at peak hours.

Maynooth line could support 3-4 per hour. One of the reasons the line doesn't get the passenger numbers it has the potential for is because it fails to provide a walk-up-and-go frequency. Dublin Bus 66 and 67 are both operating near capacity right not which is an indication of the type of demand this line could generate.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Maynooth line could support 3-4 per hour. One of the reasons the line doesn't get the passenger numbers it has the potential for is because it fails to provide a walk-up-and-go frequency. Dublin Bus 66 and 67 are both operating near capacity right not which is an indication of the type of demand this line could generate.

The Northern line has four trains an hour from 06:30 to 07:30, and the Maynooth/M3 lines have a combined frequency of six trains per hour between Clonsilla and Broombridge between 07:00 and 09:00.

To be fair if you combine the Heuston and GCD services there is pretty much a turn up and go service from Hazelhatch in the morning peak between 06:30 and 07:50.

As I said above you're unlikely to fit more services through the PPT at peak times - there simply aren't the paths for it through the loop line nor is there the rolling stock available.

LXFlyer

L1011 wrote: »

And be prepared for utter, utter mayhem for months after they do...

Bear in mind that under the proposed timetable the DART itself was to have increased running times which should mean a more resilient timetable overall. The poor performance through Connolly for the last while has been down to the very poor DART punctuality which has then had knock-on effects on all of the other services.

The main issue with the 10 minute DART frequency timetable is the enforced longer journey times on the Northern line as a result, and the reduced number of paths.

thomasj

AngryLips wrote:

Maynooth line could support 3-4 per hour. One of the reasons the line doesn't get the passenger numbers it has the potential for is because it fails to provide a walk-up-and-go frequency. Dublin Bus 66 and 67 are both operating near capacity right not which is an indication of the type of demand this line could generate.

As is the 39 and 39a

tabbey

lxflyer wrote: »

The main issue with the 10 minute DART frequency timetable is the enforced longer journey times on the Northern line as a result, and the reduced number of paths.

And the even slower running on the south-eastern section.

There should be no more talk of increasing paths until significant four tracking on parts of the northern and south eastern routes are not just projected but delivered. This should have been done before electrification nearly four decades ago.

The route between Broombridge and Clonsilla should also be protected from railside development.

LXFlyer

tabbey wrote: »

And the even slower running on the south-eastern section.

There should be no more talk of increasing paths until significant four tracking on parts of the northern and south eastern routes are not just projected but delivered. This should have been done before electrification nearly four decades ago.

The route between Broombridge and Clonsilla should also be protected from railside development.

That's true too but again there really is nothing that can be done to improve the overall journey times on that route given the infrastructural constraints and the operational constraints imposed by the half-hourly DART to/from Greystones.

I don't see any four tracking happening on the southeastern section - the cost/benefit would be awful.

The Northern Line issue is a greater one due the far greater numbers of passengers that will suffer longer journey times. I am inclined to think that infrastructural deficits on that line should be addressed before implementing the enhanced DART service - extra track capacity between Killester and Raheny, a southbound loop at Clongriffin, and a siding to the north of Malahide. But sadly I don't think that's going to happen.

thomasj

worth a read - downloadable document

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/content/corporate/english/general/statement-strategy-2016-2019/iarnrod-eireann.pdf

tabbey

thomasj wrote: »

worth a read - downloadable document

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/content/corporate/english/general/statement-strategy-2016-2019/iarnrod-eireann.pdf

Thank you for that.

Basically that statement means IR are comitted to ongoing maintenance & renewal of fleet and infrastructure,with enhanced efficiency and some additional rollingstock.
We have had this sort of aspiration for decades, what we need is radical increase in track capacity. Double track shared by suburban and mainline trains was alright in the sixties, butsince 1968 we have had significant increases in passengers almost every year.

You cannot put a quart in a pint pot.

If we want to run a mainline and outer suburban service, we need additional tracks. If the Airport branch from Clongriffin goes ahead, we may as well close passenger services north of Balbriggan, as buses will be much faster.

Part of the Kildare line has been given four tracking.At the moment it is a white elephant, but in 20 years it could be very busy. More so than the northern and southeastern routes, because the Kildare line has potential for development on both sides of the corridor.

The Midland route also has potential for residential development on both sides. Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth grew massively in the 1980s and 90s, the same could happen beyond Kilcock and Enfield over the next thirty years.
If land adjacent to the railway is not protected by a 10 metre cordon, it will be like the northern and southeastern routes very soon.

The time to plan for the future is long overdue, but better now than when rescuing the situation costs billions.
A medium sized city, which Dublin is becoming, cannot function without a rail based transport network.

L1011

Pre CIE we had people planning for growth -
GNR were planning quad tracking the Northern Line in the early 1950s!

tabbey

L1011 wrote: »

Pre CIE we had people planning for growth -
GNR were planning quad tracking the Northern Line in the early 1950s!

And bridges such as Collins Avenue were built to accomodate it.

kc56

tabbey wrote: »

Thank you for that.

Part of the Kildare line has been given four tracking.At the moment it is a white elephant, but in 20 years it could be very busy. More so than the northern and southeastern routes, because the Kildare line has potential for development on both sides of the corridor.

Not a total white elephant.

The 4 tracks does allow more commuter trains without interfering too much with IC trains. There's a lot of overtaking in the stretch at present - e.g the 0809 Hazelhatch/GCD has 3 ICs overtaking it (Westport and the 2 earlies for Cork). Without the 4 track, the PPT services couldn't be accommodated without seriously slowing IC trains. And outbound, you often have a PPT train closely followed by a Portlaoise and both being overtaken (e.g 1758 GCD-Hazelhatch followed by the 1825 Heuston - Portlaoise are overtaken by the 1830 Galway and 1835 Waterford).

While we're on the subject, loadings on the peak PPTs are very good with Newbridge trains being very well supported, with standing, at Sallins and Hazelhatch trains almost at capacity. Maybe the BE dispute is re-directing some traffic?

tabbey

kc56 wrote: »

Not a total white elephant.

The 4 tracks does allow more commuter trains without interfering too much with IC trains. There's a lot of overtaking in the stretch at present - e.g the 0809 Hazelhatch/GCD has 3 ICs overtaking it (Westport and the 2 earlies for Cork). Without the 4 track, the PPT services couldn't be accommodated without seriously slowing IC trains. And outbound, you often have a PPT train closely followed by a Portlaoise and both being overtaken (e.g 1758 GCD-Hazelhatch followed by the 1825 Heuston - Portlaoise are overtaken by the 1830 Galway and 1835 Waterford).

Agreed.

The point I am making is that in years to come, it will be much busier, with further four tracking towards Kildare, and new stations; Straffan, Caragh, probably more.