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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

sparrowcar

Contact lost just before 0100 off the west coast of Achill island on a rescue mission.
Search in progress including all available ships and Rescue 115.

Hopefully a positive outcome to this.

Please keep replies civil, and respectful of the crew and their families.

Please do not speculate as to any cause unless you have a factual basis to do so (and can back it up with information released to the public).

There will be zero tolerance for troublemakers or those that choose to ignore these guidelines.

There are other moderator messages in the thread, as a result of issues that have arisen, and we will be less forgiving going forward, due to the ongoing sensitivity of this incident

As per normal boards guidance, any comments on moderation are off topic and should be addressed directly to mods or cmods by PM. Any part of posts which are off topic in such a manner may be edited or removed, with possible sanction. Non news posts will be moved to the parallel R116 Non news and discussion thread

Should any new reports, updates or news stories come out, posts which can be boiled down to "I Told You So" or other triumphalism about previous commentary will result in significant punishment.

Any threadbans will carry over to any replacement thread should this approach 10,000 posts

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elastico

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

So you've all established that the crew compartment is no longer watertight, although it is most likely the largest compartment by volume, it is not the only compartment on the craft.

Tell us which other compartments there are then. And what volume they are, and how this will affect things.

Apart from the main crew section there isn't much really.

Any if they are still watertight they must still be airtight surely, and full of air maybe, as they are watertight, and the water can't get in, right?

AndyBoBandy

elastico wrote: »

Any if they are still watertight they must still be airtight surely, and full of air maybe, as they are watertight, and the water can't get in, right?

correct, possibly adding buoyancy to the craft,

elastico

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

correct, possibly adding buoyancy to the craft,

So you think after colliding with an island, crashing into the sea and hitting the seabed it's full of air tight compartments which are adding buoyancy meaning easier lift?

Cloudio9

The helicopter wasn't watertight to begin with. It's not a submarine. Even a pressurised airplane cabin is not watertight (or airtight).

RonanFarrell

They'd have been doing well to recover a body from the cockpit without letting any water in.

Alun

Macca07 wrote: »

Would it be possible to raise the wreckage from the ocean floor by a few feet using airbag equipment, use the Ocean Challenger to drag the wreckage away from rocks, so the Granuaile can position itself correctly above the wreckage to lift it?

Sorry if that's the understanding already, but just curious why the Ocean Challenger has been sent.

Going by the accounts of the retrieval of the yacht carried out by the same ship, I'd say that's a possibility.

CJhaughey

Macca07 wrote: »

Sorry if that's the understanding already, but just curious why the Ocean Challenger has been sent.

The Ocean Challenger is owned by Atlantic Marine and Towage who are salvage experts, this is their bread and butter.
Probably no-one else in Ireland has their experience and track record of salvage.
With all due respect neither the Navy, the Marine Institute or Irish Lights are equipped or have the experience to do this job.
IMHO they should have been contracted at the earliest opportunity for this job.

L1011

The water-tightness or not of the cabin is not of huge importance. Please stop the back and forth about it

wexandproud

CJhaughey wrote: »

The Ocean Challenger is owned by Atlantic Marine and Towage who are salvage experts, this is their bread and butter.
Probably no-one else in Ireland has their experience and track record of salvage.
With all due respect neither the Navy, the Marine Institute or Irish Lights are equipped or have the experience to do this job.
IMHO they should have been contracted at the earliest opportunity for this job.

if this company was called in as soon as wreckage was located it would be on the surface by now.
The navy and the other vessels involved would be holding the whole operation up

youtheman

At first I admired the people involved in the recovery operation, then I wondered why they persisted in a process that was so subject to weather, now I am getting frustrated as they seem to flip flop from one plan to another (and I can only imagine what the Next of Kin are feeling). The crew of that aircraft deserve better. They deserve the best available resources. Another weekend is passing with no sign of completion. I would describe the whole operation as akin to trying to eat soup with a gold plated fork.

LiamaDelta

youtheman wrote:

(and I can only imagine what the Next of Kin are feeling). The crew of that aircraft deserve better. They deserve the best available resources.

I reckon the families are very grateful that such care and attention is being taken and they are involved in the whole process.

Cianmcliam

youtheman wrote: »

At first I admired the people involved in the recovery operation, then I wondered why they persisted in a process that was so subject to weather, now I am getting frustrated as they seem to flip flop from one plan to another (and I can only imagine what the Next of Kin are feeling). The crew of that aircraft deserve better. They deserve the best available resources. Another weekend is passing with no sign of completion. I would describe the whole operation as akin to trying to eat soup with a gold plated fork.

Is there anything to suggest that a commercial operation would have been able to operate in the kind of weather and swell around the island over the last two weeks? Surely they wouldn't have been able to even formulate a plan before diving to see the state of the wreck and any obstacles, would they have been able to find divers to do this any earlier than the Garda/Navy diving teams?

LiamaDelta

wexandproud wrote:

if this company was called in as soon as wreckage was located it would be on the surface by now. The navy and the other vessels involved would be holding the whole operation up

But it's not a salvage operation. It's firstly an operation to see if the bodies of the crew are on board and hopefully retrieve them if they are. That certainly isn't what a salvage company does. You may have wreckage on the surface, but at what cost.

livedadream

wexandproud wrote: »

CJhaughey wrote: »

The Ocean Challenger is owned by Atlantic Marine and Towage who are salvage experts, this is their bread and butter.
Probably no-one else in Ireland has their experience and track record of salvage.
With all due respect neither the Navy, the Marine Institute or Irish Lights are equipped or have the experience to do this job.
IMHO they should have been contracted at the earliest opportunity for this job.

if this company was called in as soon as wreckage was located it would be on the surface by now.
The navy and the other vessels involved would be holding the whole operation up

sure they cant just raise it up out of the water, its not a rock their pulling up, its a helicopter which is part of an investigation and retrieval of remains. the other vessels and the navy/gardai are not holding things up, they have no reason to.. have some respect for people doing a very difficult job.

ectoraige

youtheman wrote: »

At first I admired the people involved in the recovery operation, then I wondered why they persisted in a process that was so subject to weather, now I am getting frustrated as they seem to flip flop from one plan to another (and I can only imagine what the Next of Kin are feeling). The crew of that aircraft deserve better. They deserve the best available resources. Another weekend is passing with no sign of completion. I would describe the whole operation as akin to trying to eat soup with a gold plated fork.

I don't think you comprehend the difficulty of what's involved, and to be frank comes across as disrespectful to the people involved in the search. It is not just a salvage operation, it is a recovery operation, as well as a forensic investigation. Many of them are searching for their own colleagues. Recovery operations where the person has been lost in freshwater are difficult enough, nevermind the Atlantic. I'm desperately hoping on the behalf of the families that there is a positive outcome, but sadly not every recovery ends as desired.

challengemaster

Cianmcliam wrote: »

Surely they wouldn't have been able to even formulate a plan before diving to see the state of the wreck and any obstacles, would they have been able to find divers to do this any earlier than the Garda/Navy diving teams?

Based on their website they have their own divers and ROV

We can Mobilise at a moments notice whatever the requirement, be it a disabled vessel drifting, a sinking yacht or a grounded ship.We have our own pumps, air bags, divers, patches, Salvage masters, Naval architect, Personal to prepare the risk assessments and method statements and Marine plant ready to go. Our proven track record speaks for itself in this area

As for doing it earlier than the Garda teams, who knows?

elastico

A private operator lifted the Pete Charles, but months after the sinking, possibly because it happened in winter.

Prior to that though the Navy had dived to the wreck, so they seem to be treating this in a similar fashion.

Storm 10

This needs to be resolved as quickly as possible, there are grieving families to consider and two weeks is a long time to have to wait to see if the two crew are in the helicopter, also what caused this accident needs to be found out ASAP as there are S92s flying around the World and if it was a technical issue they could be grounded, lets hope this weekend will see and end to the waiting for everyone.

elastico

Storm 10 wrote: »

This needs to be resolved as quickly as possible, there are grieving families to consider and two weeks is a long time to have to wait to see if the two crew are in the helicopter, also what caused this accident needs to be found out ASAP as there are S92s flying around the World and if it was a technical issue they could be grounded, lets hope this weekend will see and end to the waiting for everyone.

I'd be surprised if the investigators don't know the cause at this stage.

livedadream

Storm 10 wrote: »

This needs to be resolved as quickly as possible, there are grieving families to consider and two weeks is a long time to have to wait to see if the two crew are in the helicopter, also what caused this accident needs to be found out ASAP as there are S92s flying around the World and if it was a technical issue they could be grounded, lets hope this weekend will see and end to the waiting for everyone.

so you'd prefer that the men who are diving put their own lives at more risk to speed up the process yeah?
that makes super good sense.

ill put a call in, lads no one gives a **** if ye get the bends or worse hurry the f up theres some lad on the internets who thinks you should be going faster..

[Deleted User]

wexandproud wrote: »

if this company was called in as soon as wreckage was located it would be on the surface by now.
The navy and the other vessels involved would be holding the whole operation up

youtheman wrote: »

At first I admired the people involved in the recovery operation, then I wondered why they persisted in a process that was so subject to weather, now I am getting frustrated as they seem to flip flop from one plan to another (and I can only imagine what the Next of Kin are feeling). The crew of that aircraft deserve better. They deserve the best available resources. Another weekend is passing with no sign of completion. I would describe the whole operation as akin to trying to eat soup with a gold plated fork.

Seen as how you two have so much experience at this how about you get in contact with the two agencies and let them know where they've been going wrong and point them in the right direction.

Irish Coast Guard

(01) 6783454
Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Leeson Lane, Dublin, D02 TR60.
IRCGDIVISION@dttas.ie

Haulbowline Irish Naval Base, Co. Cork
(021) 4864700

I'll be honest that's the clean version of the response I wanted to post, the original version contained no more than a couple of words but I couldn't decide which word or words were most appropriate.

Gaoth Laidir

youtheman wrote: »

At first I admired the people involved in the recovery operation, then I wondered why they persisted in a process that was so subject to weather, now I am getting frustrated as they seem to flip flop from one plan to another (and I can only imagine what the Next of Kin are feeling). The crew of that aircraft deserve better. They deserve the best available resources. Another weekend is passing with no sign of completion. I would describe the whole operation as akin to trying to eat soup with a gold plated fork.

I'm sure the families of the crew are only too happy to see the thoroughness of the operation so that nobody from the rescue mission will leave their family in grief in the same way as their loved ones did.

elastico

Deleted User wrote: »

Seen as how you two have so much experience at this how about you get in contact with the two agencies and let them know where they've been going wrong and point them in the right direction.

Irish Coast Guard

(01) 6783454
Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, Leeson Lane, Dublin, D02 TR60.
IRCGDIVISION@dttas.ie

Haulbowline Irish Naval Base, Co. Cork
(021) 4864700

I'll be honest that's the clean version of the response I wanted to post, the original version contained no more than a couple of words but I couldn't decide which word or words were most appropriate.

In fairness this is a discussion forum, not everybody is obliged to have the same opinion as each other.

If people want to criticise the way it's being handled they are entitled to do so.

kippy

Storm 10 wrote: »

This needs to be resolved as quickly as possible, there are grieving families to consider and two weeks is a long time to have to wait to see if the two crew are in the helicopter, also what caused this accident needs to be found out ASAP as there are S92s flying around the World and if it was a technical issue they could be grounded, lets hope this weekend will see and end to the waiting for everyone.

Yourself, and indeed others in the past few hours, don't seem to have any appreciation for:
1. The weather has been atrocious for a large portion of the time since the accident.

2. The sea conditions - the weather and the sea conditions don't always align. Even in good weather, sea swells can be extremely difficult to deal with, these swells are generated initially hundreds of mile away due to other weather fronts)

3. The location of the wreckage (40 metres down, not a stones throw from 2 sets of extremely dangerous landmasses, where currents, due to both sets of land masses as well as points 1 and 2 are treacherous.

4. The fact that we are completely oblivious to what exactly the emergency services and all parties involved are actually doing/planning in relation to this. The best people are involved in this and its not just a matter of throwing a line on it and lifting it.

5. The only thing worse than a long recovery process is a recovery process where more people get killed or injured. It is best to do this right in as safe a manner as possible than rushing for the sake of rushing to ensure people like yourself with such unrealistic expectations feel vindicated.

There are a lot of people here who don't appreciate the weather/power of the sea or indeed the real threat to rescuers up there.
I am sure the families are being kept informed and all the best resources are being used for this.
Truly horrible situation for all involved but the timelines are not out of kilter with other such recoveries.

kippy

elastico wrote: »

In fairness this is a discussion forum, not everybody is obliged to have the same opinion as each other.

If people want to criticise the way it's being handled they are entitled to do so.

People who are criticizing how this is being handled haven't a dicky bird about how it has been handled..........

youtheman

ectoraige wrote: »

youtheman wrote: »

At first I admired the people involved in the recovery operation, then I wondered why they persisted in a process that was so subject to weather, now I am getting frustrated as they seem to flip flop from one plan to another (and I can only imagine what the Next of Kin are feeling). The crew of that aircraft deserve better. They deserve the best available resources. Another weekend is passing with no sign of completion. I would describe the whole operation as akin to trying to eat soup with a gold plated fork.

I don't think you comprehend the difficulty of what's involved, and to be frank comes across as disrespectful to the people involved in the search. It is not just a salvage operation, it is a recovery operation, as well as a forensic investigation. Many of them are searching for their own colleagues. Recovery operations where the person has been lost in freshwater are difficult enough, nevermind the Atlantic. I'm desperately hoping on the behalf of the families that there is a positive outcome, but sadly not every recovery ends as desired.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've been involved in multiple air diving, saturation diving, side scan and ROV jobs. It's not about respect for the rescue team, they have earned their stripes already. It's about respect to the CHC crew and their next of kin. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. They deserve the best. And an air diving approach is not the best, in fact its shortcoming have been clearly evident over the last 2 weeks. If they had a DSV in the field then the inspection of the wreckage would be done in one dive, and I'd expect the wreckage to be removed in less than 2 days total, even allowing for weather. I've been on a DSV operating 24 hours a day in 6 m swells. There is absolutely no comparison between an air diving spread on a vessel and a fully functioning DSV. I'm just wondering at what stage will they say 'halt', we need to reconsider our approach. I suppose they will eventually get to the end game, but whether they will learn any lessons is doubtful.

DontThankMe

elastico wrote: »

In fairness this is a discussion forum, not everybody is obliged to have the same opinion as each other.

If people want to criticise the way it's being handled they are entitled to do so.

Yeah they can criticise but what they need to realise is that no one probably feels worse than those trying to recover the bodies of the crew members. They have been trying to do so for the last week and maybe thinking in their own heads that they are "failures" because they haven't recovered them yet but nothing is further from the truth they are clearly trying their best. It is very easy to criticise the job they are doing from behind a keyboard but try and put yourselves in their shoes they are doing an incredibly difficult job and they deserve our respect admiration and support for the job they are doing.

livedadream

youtheman wrote: »

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've been involved in multiple air diving, saturation diving, side scan and ROV jobs. It's not about respect for the rescue team, they have earned their stripes already. It's about respect to the CHC crew and their next of kin. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. They deserve the best. And an air diving approach is not the best, in fact its shortcoming have been clearly evident over the last 2 weeks. If they had a DSV in the field then the inspection of the wreckage would be done in one dive, and I'd expect the wreckage to be removed in less than 2 days total, even allowing for weather. I've been on a DSV operating 24 hours a day in 6 m swells. There is absolutely no comparison between an air diving spread on a vessel and a fully functioning DSV. I'm just wondering at what stage will they say 'halt', we need to reconsider our approach. I suppose they will eventually get to the end game, but whether they will learn any lessons is doubtful.

#fakenews
dude you have no idea what you are on about.
it comes across like you have nothing positive to say about anything to do with the recovery and investigation and have no mind for the people down there doing the work. youre talking about the families but have no idea whats going on.
take it somewhere else will ya? youre either trolling or just looking for a fight.. or are too much of an 'expert' in your field that you dont work for the two biggest sea agencys in the country...

elastico

livedadream wrote: »

#fakenews
dude you have no idea what you are on about.
it comes across like you have nothing positive to say about anything to do with the recovery and investigation and have no mind for the people down there doing the work. youre talking about the families but have no idea whats going on.
take it somewhere else will ya? youre either trolling or just looking for a fight.. or are too much of an 'expert' in your field that you dont work for the two biggest sea agencys in the country...

Weren't you telling us earlier the cabin may still be watertight? Somehow they got a body out without making a big hole?

I think he knows a lot more than you.

People are entitled to a different point of view on this.

It seems anybody who doesn't compliment all aspects of the operation gets lambasted.

Storm 10

In now way am I criticising anyone involved in this rescue mission, I have nothing but the greatest respect for the Navy divers ,Irish Lights the Marine Institute , Gardaí Divers and the local fishermen and of course the Coastguard, the point I was trying to make was if they need to get any more ships or equipment there it should be brought in to assist in the recovery. Should have explained it better in my other post.