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Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

Atlantic Dawn

Breaking news...

Parliament is on lockdown after gunshots were heard outside the Palace of Westminster.

http://news.sky.com/story/gunshots-heard-outside-parliament-10810680

Mod: No speculation until reliable information has been released.

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Depp

Christy42 wrote: »

Yes but the claim was that Muslims wanted Sharia law the world over.

Yes thats what the claim was which is clearly true...it was not that all Muslims want sharia law the world over which is what you are arguing.

seachto7

I'm sure most shiite muslims and other minority muslim sects would have the same fear the rest of us do of ISIS.....

Widdershins

Depp wrote: »

This x100 these people need to be protected and allowed to speak not bizarrely branded as terrorists and extremists by the left. My belief is there are many muslims who feel similarly but are afraid to speak due to fear of retribution from radicals or vilification from the left. The fact they both are on the anti-muslim extremist watchlist is completely counterproductive and is not how we encourage others to speak up. A change in Islam is not going to come from us if its to be effective. It has to come from within Islam to make any change. And how we can help is to encourage and protect the moderate muslims who disagree with the more questionable parts within the religeon.

Yes, exactly. And I'd probably be more to the Left than the Right myself. Many of us on the Left feel that some people are too protective of Islamic beliefs to allow any criticism of it to happen and they are letting reformists and persecuted people down as well as impeding any possible solution to the current violence happening not only in the ME but in Europe these days,

Yourself isit

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you think that we must start that process by rethinking how we treat the countries that are the birthplace of Islam?

The US waa pretty much allied with isis in Syria if the west doesn't get involved it would be blamed for not getting involved.

Of course we should get out. That doesn't mean Muslims in Europe will be less radicalised.

ScumLord

seachto7 wrote: »

I'm sure most shiite muslims and other minority muslim sects would have the same fear the rest of us do of ISIS.....

Very possible, Muslims make up the majority of ISIS victims, we only see the tip of the iceberg here in Europe.

Richard Hillman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Surely it should be important to note that this individual had a history of violent acts - he converted to Islam while he was in prison ... for violent crime. Sure, you can go on about how Islam is bad, blah blah blah, but not forgetting the fact that plenty of these people are, in fact, mentally ill or are just violent thugs.

If he converted to being a Born Again Christian, do you think he would have done that?
If he converted to Judaism, do you think he would have done that?
If he converted to Buddhism, do you think he would have done that?
If he convert to Hinduism, do you think he would have done that?
If he was radicalised to being a Far-Left Irish Republican, do you think he would have done that?
If he was radicalised to becoming an ANTIFA, do you think he would have done that?
If he was radicalised to becoming a basque separatist, do you think he would have done that?

The_Kew_Tour

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely it should be important to note that this individual had a history of violent acts - he converted to Islam while he was in prison ... for violent crime. Sure, you can go on about how Islam is bad, blah blah blah, but not forgetting the fact that plenty of these people are, in fact, mentally ill or are just violent thugs.

Ah yes the "Mentally ill" brigade.

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR THESE SCUM!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

Christy42

Richard Hillman wrote: »

If he converted to being a Born Again Christian, do you think he would have done that?
If he converted to Judaism, do you think he would have done that?
If he converted to Buddhism, do you think he would have done that?
If he convert to Hinduism, do you think he would have done that?
If he was radicalised to being a Far-Left Irish Republican, do you think he would have done that?
If he was radicalised to becoming an ANTIFA, do you think he would have done that?
If he was radicalised to becoming a basque separatist, do you think he would have done that?

He would not have converted to them. Horse before the cart here.

If he had been radicalised to a basque separatist he probably would have done it in Spain (radicalised being the operative word here, they have extremists as well).

Christy42

Depp wrote: »

Yes thats what the claim was which is clearly true...it was not that all Muslims want sharia law the world over which is what you are arguing.

Wait. Why did you not call out the post I was replying to that implied I was arguing no Muslims wanted Sharia law (which I went to great lengths to avoid).

Muslims want Sharia law is at best ambiguous as a statement. This language is being used by the right more and more to try and slip statements by. If they used accurate language their statements would either look crazy or not really argue their point depending on which side of the ambiguous divide they fall. Say what you mean people.

FrancieBrady

I think, and I am trying to take some of hyperbole and scaremongering out of it, that if you look at the most recent attacks in Britain that the cure, or diminishing of the threat, could come from looking at the effects of disaffection in general.
I don't think anyone could deny that disaffection is a huge problem right across Europe and the islands off it, resulting in instability and uncertainty.

Disaffected people will attach themselves to 'causes' and I have yet to see any data that would dissuade me that Jo Cox's death and The Westminister attacks were carried out by people who were primarily disaffected from the society in which they were born first, the 'causes' came after.

Laois_Man

I see Minister Fitzgerald talking about extra security on Leinster House to make sure the same attack doesn't happen here

That's a relief!

Depp

Christy42 wrote: »

Wait. Why did you not call out the post I was replying to that implied I was arguing no Muslims wanted Sharia law (which I went to great lengths to avoid).

Muslims want Sharia law is at best ambiguous as a statement. This language is being used by the right more and more to try and slip statements by. If they used accurate language their statements would either look crazy or not really argue their point depending on which side of the ambiguous divide they fall. Say what you mean people.

My apologies I misunderstood. My point still stands.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

23% of british Muslims believe sharia law should replace uk law. thats not an ambiguous number. What I really mean is sharia law is anti human and if you promote, defend or make excuses for sharia you are also anti-human or just utterly misguided. Also more than half (53%) think homosexuality should be illegal in line with sharia law, whats your opinion on this?

SEPT 23 1989

Laois_Man wrote: »

I see Minister Fitzgerald talking about extra security on Leinster House to make sure the same attack doesn't happen here

That's a relief!

fcuk Leinster House

Dublin shopping centres/ areas should have armed plain clothes gardai wandering around them

[Deleted User]

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Ah yes the "Mentally ill" brigade.

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR THESE SCUM!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

The Excuse List. Feel free to add to it;

1. This guy has nothing to do with Islam and he does not represent Islam.
2. It's revenge for the West being in the Middle East.
3. The guy was a mentally ill.
4. It is ''lone wolf" attack.
5. Christians do these things too.
6. It's Trump's fault.

Things you can do;

1. Change your Facebook profile pic to a filtered flag.
2. Use the hashtag #PrayForLondon/Paris/Brussels
3. Share pictures of landmarks lit up in the colours of the attacked nation.
4. Accuse those with concern re non-integration of Muslims of being bigots.
5. Slam Trump.
6. Wait for the next terrorist attack.

Widdershins

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think, and I am trying to take some of hyperbole and scaremongering out of it, that if you look at the most recent attacks in Britain that the cure, or diminishing of the threat, could come from looking at the effects of disaffection in general.
I don't think anyone could deny that disaffection is a huge problem right across Europe and the islands off it, resulting in instability and uncertainty.

Disaffected people will attach themselves to 'causes' and I have yet to see any data that would dissuade me that Jo Cox's death and The Westminister attacks were carried out by people who were primarily disaffected from the society in which they were born first, the 'causes' came after.

What is the reason for disaffection and whats the cure? And why would disaffected Muslims do such things when the rest of the disaffected population don't express their feelings by turning terrorist?

I have not seen anyone say there are ''hordes'' of jihadists to be either, so constantly trying to take the alleged scaremongering out of it is a pointless exercise.

There's no date to persuade anyone that ''disaffection'' is the reason, generally you'd go with the evidence rather than looking for evidence for an alternative theory.

Laois_Man

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

fcuk Leinster House

Dublin shopping centres/ areas should have armed plain clothes gardai wandering around them

Why just Dublin and why just shopping centres? We'd never make the huge investment required!

Attacks like Wednesday and the attacks in Nice and Germany show how easy it is to kill dozens of people and it can happen anywhere with a crowd for something as simple as a Paddy's Day Parade. It can even happen anywhere on a scale much bigger than 9/11, much easier than you might think

ScumLord

Depp wrote: »

23% of british Muslims believe sharia law should replace uk law. thats not an ambiguous number. What I really mean is sharia law is anti human and if you promote, defend or make excuses for sharia you are also anti-human or just utterly misguided. Also more than half (53%) think homosexuality should be illegal in line with sharia law, whats your opinion on this?

All religion is nuts, having laws based on religion is crazier. But I'm not going to get worked up about a minority in a minority wanting Sharia law, especially when they know as well as I do that it's never going to happen. It's a point of contention, just something to argue about and further polarise the people.

FrancieBrady

Widdershins wrote: »

What is the reason for disaffection and whats the cure? And why would disaffected Muslims do such things when the rest of the disaffected population don't express their feelings by turning terrorist?

I have not seen anyone say there are ''hordes'' of jihadists to be either, so constantly trying to take the alleged scaremongering out of it is a pointless exercise.

There's no date to persuade anyone that ''disaffection'' is the reason, generally you'd go with the evidence rather than looking for evidence for an alternative theory.

The evidence here suggests this guy had a violent past not related to Islam.
I think, not sure about you, that people who use violence are in some way disaffected. Some are disaffected for genuine reasons others not so much.

Disaffected people are vulnerable to 'causes', this guy could just as easily have done the same thing in the name of Britain First.

Both events, the death of Jo Cox and The Westminster attacks where committed by British born people. Surely the answer for Britain is to look at Britain first for answers or a cure?
And if you look at Britain, there is a large large problem with disaffection in general.

CoolHandBandit

ScumLord wrote: »

All religion is nuts, having laws based on religion is crazier. But I'm not going to get worked up about a minority in a minority wanting Sharia law, especially when they know as well as I do that it's never going to happen. It's a point of contention, just something to argue about and further polarise the people.

Ah the " lets not talk about it and hope it goes away" angle.

Help!!!!

ScumLord wrote: »

All religion is nuts, having laws based on religion is crazier. But I'm not going to get worked up about a minority in a minority wanting Sharia law, especially when they know as well as I do that it's never going to happen. It's a point of contention, just something to argue about and further polarise the people.

1.5billion Muslims in the world & over a half believe in sharia law....not much of a minority

CoolHandBandit

Omackeral wrote: »

The Excuse List. Feel free to add to it;

1. This guy has nothing to do with Islam and he does not represent Islam.
2. It's revenge for the West being in the Middle East.
3. The guy was a mentally ill.
4. It is ''lone wolf" attack.
5. Christians do these things too.
6. It's Trump's fault.

Things you can do;

1. Change your Facebook profile pic to a filtered flag.
2. Use the hashtag #PrayForLondon/Paris/Brussels
3. Share pictures of landmarks lit up in the colours of the attacked nation.
4. Accuse those with concern re non-integration of Muslims of being bigots.
5. Slam Trump.
6. Wait for the next terrorist attack.

Let's not forget " its only a tiny minority" even though pew stats show there is a worrying level of support for sharia and even jihad. But sure let's not mention that in case we are viewed as racist.

Christy42

Depp wrote: »

My apologies I misunderstood. My point still stands.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7861/british-muslims-survey

23% of british Muslims believe sharia law should replace uk law. thats not an ambiguous number. What I really mean is sharia law is anti human and if you promote, defend or make excuses for sharia you are also anti-human or just utterly misguided. Also more than half (53%) think homosexuality should be illegal in line with sharia law, whats your opinion on this?

Thank you for putting some numbers on it. Helps frame the conversation a bit better.

My opinion is that it is horrific. Sharia law is horrific and I will battle it from ever coming into force as I would any other law introduced on the basis of religion. I will also attempt to convince any who try and get religious laws enforced of the error of their ways.

Call Me Jimmy

Widdershins wrote: »

What is the reason for disaffection and whats the cure? And why would disaffected Muslims do such things when the rest of the disaffected population don't express their feelings by turning terrorist?

I have not seen anyone say there are ''hordes'' of jihadists to be either, so constantly trying to take the alleged scaremongering out of it is a pointless exercise.

There's no date to persuade anyone that ''disaffection'' is the reason, generally you'd go with the evidence rather than looking for evidence for an alternative theory.

The argument (and it's the second time I've seen it on this thread) follows logically to 'ideology cannot be dangerous because people with grievances/mental illness will find anything to satisfy their blood lust'. So there is no need for anyone to argue against the far right extremism (for example) because it cannot inspire bad behavior, only serve as a dressing for already bad people.

ScumLord

It's pretty amazing how people can twist anything into a negative for arguments sake these days.

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

Ah the " lets not talk about it and hope it goes away" angle.

You're inferring to much from what I said, I never said anything about not talking about it.

Help!!!! wrote: »

1.5billion Muslims in the world & over a half believe in sharia law....not much of a minority

I think it was pretty obvious the conversation was about European Muslims changing the laws in Europe. What has the global population of Muslims got to do with that?

Depp

ScumLord wrote: »

All religion is nuts, having laws based on religion is crazier. But I'm not going to get worked up about a minority in a minority wanting Sharia law, especially when they know as well as I do that it's never going to happen. It's a point of contention, just something to argue about and further polarise the people.

So whats your suggestion then? just keep ignoring it and keep villifying any muslim or non muslim who speaks out about it?

FrancieBrady

ScumLord wrote: »

It's pretty amazing how people can twist anything into a negative for arguments sake these days.

You're inferring to much from what I said, I never said anything about not talking about it.

I think it was pretty obvious the conversation was about European Muslims changing the laws in Europe. What has the global population of Muslims got to do with that?

You probably won't get an answer to that. And the claim here again and again is that there is no scaremongering going on. :rolleyes:

Help!!!!

ScumLord wrote: »

It's pretty amazing how people can twist anything into a negative for arguments sake these days.

You're inferring to much from what I said, I never said anything about not talking about it.

I think it was pretty obvious the conversation was about European Muslims changing the laws in Europe. What has the global population of Muslims got to do with that?[/QUOTE]

Well the way people want open borders it wont be long before they are not the minority, that & the fact they have lots of kids. So say 20 years down the line, their population has grown in Europe, the left are in agreement about Sharia, do you not think it will happen?

Depp

ScumLord wrote: »

It's pretty amazing how people can twist anything into a negative for arguments sake these days.

You're inferring to much from what I said, I never said anything about not talking about it.

I think it was pretty obvious the conversation was about European Muslims changing the laws in Europe. What has the global population of Muslims got to do with that?

not like there are hundreds of thousands of muslms flooding in every day coming from places where the percentage of people who think sharia law should be state law is in the 90s rather than the 20s is it? but thats just biggotry and scaremongering isnt it?

ScumLord

Depp wrote: »

So whats your suggestion then? just keep ignoring it and keep villifying any muslim or non muslim who speaks out about it?

I haven't vilified any non muslims. Muslims make up 4.5% of the UK population according to wiki, 20% of those people want to bring in sharia law. That's less than 2% of the population. How exactly are they going to bring in sharia law? It's not worth worrying about, there's no legal path for Sharia law in the UK, in Ireland and throughout Europe. It's not ever going to happen so why would I worry about it? It's hysterics and a distraction to spend any time debating it.

ScumLord

Depp wrote: »

not like there are hundreds of thousands of muslms flooding in every day coming from places where the percentage of people who think sharia law should be state law is in the 90s rather than the 20s is it? but thats just biggotry and scaremongering isnt it?

What is wrong with you? I never accused you or anyone of scaremongering or bigotry, I'm asking questions and your treating them like statements. Try listening rather than assuming you know me and what I believe.