The Sub 3 Support Thread

Itziger wrote: »

Dave, as you probably realised, I was kinda taking the Michael with that one!

Ok, I was guilty of taking you seriously there.

Krusty_Clown

Itziger wrote: »

True, but isn't that the same for the runner who's built up from 6 miles @ MP to 16 miles @ MP? What does that runner do for the last 10?? No 'serious' runner does a 26.2 mile training run at MP, right???

I'm purely curious now here. I'd like to hear from anyone who's done it or has read about it. As ever, it means a year of trial and error of course but it might suit some more than the short MP to Long MP plan.

The longer progressive MP run is moving you gradually towards completing the entire distance, without actually covering the complete distance(until race day). Whereas the approach you're proposing is progressively preparing you to run a fixed distance that is substantially shorter than your goal race. Purely from a psychological perspective it's going to be tough to make that mental leap of faith. But as part of a broader plan In sure it would be fine. At the end of the day, it's still training stimulus, but is it optimal?

As I mentioned, all plans already contain an element of this, as our bog standard long runs are typically getting faster (through adding stuff, or just general improvement).

Itziger

This thread gone quiet again and if there's one thread that can't be allowed to go quiet.........

I've started my real marathon training I feel now. Last Sunday was the first long run with some MP stuff. Did 12k of it after 10k warm up, then a bit to cool down. This midweek I did 7k of HM and M pace mixed in a total of 15k run. To be honest I found the structured bit hard because the difference between 500 metres of HM and 500 metres of M is fairly small. Got the feeling that the faster stuff was a bit too fast and the slower a bit too slow. I'll try more of these types though as I loved Krusty's point about discovering that the M pace sections are the easy ones and so your brain says, 'Ah, that's better, I can slow to this pace for a while now'. Hopefully the brain and other bits and pieces come to form a special relationship with 4.10/6.45 (km/mile) pace and doing 42.xx kms of it proves easier than previous efforts.

Some joints and muscles are less than impressed but so far I can run, and that's what counts.

Duanington

Itziger wrote: »

This thread gone quiet again and if there's one thread that can't be allowed to go quiet.........

I've started my real marathon training I feel now. Last Sunday was the first long run with some MP stuff. Did 12k of it after 10k warm up, then a bit to cool down. This midweek I did 7k of HM and M pace mixed in a total of 15k run. To be honest I found the structured bit hard because the difference between 500 metres of HM and 500 metres of M is fairly small. Got the feeling that the faster stuff was a bit too fast and the slower a bit too slow. I'll try more of these types though as I loved Krusty's point about discovering that the M pace sections are the easy ones and so your brain says, 'Ah, that's better, I can slow to this pace for a while now'. Hopefully the brain and other bits and pieces come to form a special relationship with 4.10/6.45 (km/mile) pace and doing 42.xx kms of it proves easier than previous efforts.

Some joints and muscles are less than impressed but so far I can run, and that's what counts.

what's the target marathon Itziger? ( apologies, you may have mentioned it previously )

Itziger

Duanington wrote: »

what's the target marathon Itziger? ( apologies, you may have mentioned it previously )

No apologies required Duaning, I've got a memory like a sieve meself. Going for Cork hopefully, now that they've moved it to Sunday. I'll fly in on Saturday fairly early and out Monday morning .............. at 5.50

Itziger

I'm planning on doing 2 Q sessions a week max. Maybe on easy weeks, not that there's too much wiggle room for them, I'll only do 1.

C'mon folks, don't be shy with the sharing. Especially if you don't have a log.

and still ricky villa

Itziger wrote: »

This thread gone quiet again and if there's one thread that can't be allowed to go quiet.........

Shhhh. Tapering

I'm almost embarrassed to come onto this log now, Ive had more attempts at sub 3 than Donal Trump has had politically incorrect statements!

Trying to get the weary wagon in shape to finish the job this summer!!

TbL

Krusty_Clown

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

I'm almost embarrassed to come onto this log now, Ive had more attempts at sub 3 than Donal Trump has had politically incorrect statements!

Trying to get the weary wagon in shape to finish the job this summer!!

TbL

A recent Magness/Marcus podcast touched on the subject of mastering the marathon, with particular reference to the difference between good marathon runners and less successful marathon runners (and I'm kind of paraphrasing here), but what it essentially came down to was this: there are so many things that can go wrong in a marathon (14 apparently!) and you only need one of those things to go wrong to spoil your race. Open shoe-lace, a trip, digestion issues, missed/wrong nutrition, weather, etc. The suggestion was that everybody has a marathon that doesn't go to plan at some point. It's not like a 5k, where you can pick yourself up and run another one a few weeks later. The key point is: what makes a good marathon runner, is the ability to keep driving forward despite setbacks or missing your goals. The ability to reset, re-motivate yourself, to keep plugging away towards your goal. That's what defines more successful marathon runners.

So best of luck getting the weary wagon back on track. You'll never regret the time you spent chasing a lofty goal, just the day you decided to pack it in.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A recent Magness/Marcus podcast touched on the subject of mastering the marathon, with particular reference to the difference between good marathon runners and less successful marathon runners (and I'm kind of paraphrasing here), but what it essentially came down to was this: there are so many things that can go wrong in a marathon (14 apparently!) and you only need one of those things to go wrong to spoil your race. Open shoe-lace, a trip, digestion issues, missed/wrong nutrition, weather, etc. The suggestion was that everybody has a marathon that doesn't go to plan at some point. It's not like a 5k, where you can pick yourself up and run another one a few weeks later. The key point is: what makes a good marathon runner, is the ability to keep driving forward despite setbacks or missing your goals. The ability to reset, re-motivate yourself, to keep plugging away towards your goal. That's what defines more successful marathon runners.

So best of luck getting the weary wagon back on track. You'll never regret the time you spent chasing a lofty goal, just the day you decided to pack it in.

Thanks for taking the time to post that, was starting to feel sorry for myself

I've probably experienced 10 out of the 14 things that can go wrong so I must be getting closer!

TbL

Dubgal72

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A recent Magness/Marcus podcast touched on the subject of mastering the marathon, with particular reference to the difference between good marathon runners and less successful marathon runners (and I'm kind of paraphrasing here), but what it essentially came down to was this: there are so many things that can go wrong in a marathon (14 apparently!) and you only need one of those things to go wrong to spoil your race. Open shoe-lace, a trip, digestion issues, missed/wrong nutrition, weather, etc. The suggestion was that everybody has a marathon that doesn't go to plan at some point. It's not like a 5k, where you can pick yourself up and run another one a few weeks later. The key point is: what makes a good marathon runner, is the ability to keep driving forward despite setbacks or missing your goals. The ability to reset, re-motivate yourself, to keep plugging away towards your goal. That's what defines more successful marathon runners.

So best of luck getting the weary wagon back on track. You'll never regret the time you spent chasing a lofty goal, just the day you decided to pack it in.

So TAbL is a platinum marathon runner.....?

hot buttered scones

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A recent Magness/Marcus podcast touched on the subject of mastering the marathon, with particular reference to the difference between good marathon runners and less successful marathon runners (and I'm kind of paraphrasing here), but what it essentially came down to was this: there are so many things that can go wrong in a marathon (14 apparently!) and you only need one of those things to go wrong to spoil your race. Open shoe-lace, a trip, digestion issues, missed/wrong nutrition, weather, etc. The suggestion was that everybody has a marathon that doesn't go to plan at some point. It's not like a 5k, where you can pick yourself up and run another one a few weeks later. The key point is: what makes a good marathon runner, is the ability to keep driving forward despite setbacks or missing your goals. The ability to reset, re-motivate yourself, to keep plugging away towards your goal. That's what defines more successful marathon runners.

So best of luck getting the weary wagon back on track. You'll never regret the time you spent chasing a lofty goal, just the day you decided to pack it in.

Cheers for that. I'll have listen later on. The optimistic side of me is saying "well you've already had a marathon that didn't go to plan, so at least you've got that out of the way early on" - but its not that easy is it?

Sub 3 is my long term goal I suppose - currently I'm just plugging away trying to get my time down, and when whatever I'm doing stops working, I'll come back here for some tips.

TFBubendorfer

hot buttered scones wrote: »

Cheers for that. I'll have listen later on. The optimistic side of me is saying "well you've already had a marathon that didn't go to plan, so at least you've got that out of the way early on" - but its not that easy is it?

Sub 3 is my long term goal I suppose - currently I'm just plugging away trying to get my time down, and when whatever I'm doing stops working, I'll come back here for some tips.

Well, it took me 15 marathons to finally break 3, so it definitely can work as a long-term project!

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Well, it took me 15 marathons to finally break 3, so it definitely can work as a long-term project!

15, fifteen not fifty? Jesus piss off you're a complete failure in the failure stakes, I've almost 130

TbL

tang1

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

15, fifteen not fifty? Jesus piss off you're a complete failure in the failure stakes, I've almost 13,000

TbL

Fixed that for you C!!!!!

tang1 wrote: »

Fixed that for you C!!!!!

That's only if you include the DNF's

TbL

snailsong

I watched a documentary some time ago about the first civilian project to put a man in space. The guy who led the team made a very interesting observation, he said the hardest part of the project was convincing themselves it was possible. Once that was achieved it was just a series of engineering problems to solve.

Two years ago, after another failed attempt at sub 3:10, I was convinced I could never break 3. I won't break it in Rotterdam next week, 3:03 or so is possible if it all goes really well. However I'm pretty confident I'll be in orbit within a year. I'm marking this as progress.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It's not like a 5k, where you can pick yourself up and run another one a few weeks later.

Did they have anything to back that up at all?

(I keep asking for any science or evidence behind these kind of assertions about only 2 marathons per year etc. and have yet to get a trace of anything from anyone)

There must be a fair amount of empirical evidence around in respect of both propositions, at this stage...

Krusty_Clown

Enduro wrote: »

Did they have anything to back that up at all?

(I keep asking for any science or evidence behind these kind of assertions about only 2 marathons per year etc. and have yet to get a trace of anything from anyone)

Back what up? That you can't chase a marathon PB every couple of weeks? Go for it. Report back

rooneyjm

Like everything it depends. If your marathon is going south at half way and you back off then maybe its possible to go again in a couple of months. If you dont back off and flog yourself until the end then your looking at a longer recovery and build

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Back what up? That you can't chase a marathon PB every couple of weeks? Go for it. Report back

I'll take that as a "No" then. It was a genuine and straighforward question, but your answer seems to be erring towards sarcasm (If I'm wrong about that, then my apologies).

So genuinely, is there any evidence out there to show that you can't chase a second marathon PB after going for it the first time? I know that the world and it's mother thinks its the case that it is not do-able, but I've yet to see or hear of any actual evidence to back that up. Without that, it's no more than received wisdom that nobody questions because "it's obvious".

I don't run straight marathons these days, as you probably know. But I have attempted much longer races "every couple of weeks" quite frequently (And I'm guessing that the reason you're skeptical that a full effort marathon every couple of weeks is because of the distance... if so, I'm presumung that you'd accept that distances longer than marathon should at minimum be equally difficult to race as closely, if not more so). If you want to know about how that worked out I'll report that back for you no problem.

davedanon wrote: »

There must be a fair amount of empirical evidence around in respect of both propositions, at this stage...

You would think there would be, but I can't find any. Nor can anyone seem to point me in the direction of research / analysis showing it.

sideswipe

Enduro wrote: »

You would think there would be, but I can't find any. Nor can anyone seem to point me in the direction of research / analysis showing it.

With all due respect Enduro, you don't have to be able to link research/analysis for common sense.
Somebody who can train and execute a marathon to the maximum of their ability and then do it again with improved results days later is an outlier. Most people couldn't (shouldn't) take that risk.

sideswipe wrote: »

With all due respect Enduro, you don't have to be able to link research/analysis for common sense.

Unless the "Common Sense" is wrong, as turns out to be the case in many cases. It's not that long ago that it was common sense that you just had to do loads of static stretching before and after any running, for example. My favourite all time example of orthodoxy being thrown out the window by someone daring to question recieved wisdom is this one.

sideswipe wrote: »

Somebody who can train and execute a marathon to the maximum of their ability and then do it again with improved results days later is an outlier. Most people couldn't (shouldn't) take that risk.

I believe the reference was to weeks, not days. And again, can you point me to any evidence / research / emperical statistics of any kind to support that?

Edit:

And to add.... What "Risk"?! The "risk" of running a sub-optimal marathon or DNFing? It doesn't strike me as something to be overly concerned about. On the contary achieving your best marathon performance requires risk taking, pushing yourself to you absolute limits.

RayCun

This study shows 8-12 weeks for skeletal muscle damage to be repaired after a marathon.

In general, running a hard marathon is known to cause large degrees of muscle inflammation, high levels of stress (acute elevation of cortisol), and so on.

We also know that there is such a thing as overtraining syndrome, which is caused by subjecting your body to too much stress without sufficient time for recovery.

For me, that is enough reason to think that the received wisdom is correct, and the burden of proof is in the other direction.

OWinter

Enduro wrote: »

Unless the "Common Sense" is wrong, as turns out to be the case in many cases. It's not that long ago that it was common sense that you just had to do loads of static stretching before and after any running, for example. My favourite all time example of orthodoxy being thrown out the window by someone daring to question recieved wisdom is this one.

I believe the reference was to weeks, not days. And again, can you point me to any evidence / research / emperical statistics of any kind to support that?

Edit:

And to add.... What "Risk"?! The "risk" of running a sub-optimal marathon or DNFing? It doesn't strike me as something to be overly concerned about. On the contary achieving your best marathon performance requires risk taking, pushing yourself to you absolute limits.

Walking around the mountains with a map, not eating, not sleeping is a completely different hobby to blasting a marathon full gas on the edge of HR redline, muscle fatigue etc

'It's not the distance but the speed that kills'

What about the thousands upon thousands of athletes down the decades that have found over and over that after an interval of, say, a month after a full-on, raced marathon, that they simply aren't recovered? Their body tells them so. Their training tells them so. It's only 'received wisdom' if you've never been in that position, if you don't run at all, or have never raced a marathon. No doubt there are those who would disagree, and some who are able to contradict the evidence consensus. But for the vast majority, I would say, it isn't possible. That is, if what you're suggesting is that it's possible to race a marathon, flat out, every 4-6 weeks, and continually improve or at least maintain a consistent standard.

Look at someone like Gary O'Hanlon. He completes several marathons a year and wins them regularly. If I understand it right, though (don't know the chap) he is a low 2.20 man, and generally he can win the races he picks with a 2.40-2.45 performance. Because he isn't flat-out, he can go to the well again much quicker than most other people.

Am I still in the sub 3 support thread...

TbL