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The Vladimir Putin appreciation thread.

Jimmy Garlic

He has to be one of the greatest leaders the world has ever known, not just a stuffed suit like his wooden American counterpart. His steadfast resolve in the face of a proxy war being waged in Ukraine has to be admired, a war that would never have happened if billions weren't poured into Ukraine to kickstart a coup.

Like him or loathe him there is no doubt that Vladimir Putin is a very shrewd operator who is consistently one step ahead of the game.

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Irish Praetorian

humanji wrote: »

Why are people so desperate to assume there must be a good guy? They're all villains. They've all done terrible things. And they'll all continue to do terrible things to ensure their own survival.

I've pondered this quite a bit and basically I can come to no better explanation than it is simply the latest fashion; looking at the US/West/First World/EU as the 'bad guy' has been a hard-left position for quite a while. Now since the late-00's it has become a hard-right position too, originating primarily I think in the need of the American right to utterly disown Obama and any decisions he made, which then broadened out to Europe in the form of anti-EU or anti-migration policy sentiment. Plus there is the usual edginess of knowing 'the truth' and being separate from 'the sheeple' - then again I could be wrong or I could be a victim of this kind of 'truth knowing' myself, a wonderful logical conundrum

robindch

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Like the liberal democratic Yeltsin years?
This era has been erased from history so here is a very interesting read to remind you what a "free" Russia was like.

"Erased"? Next, you'll be going on about the "corporatist mass media", "agendas", "sheeple" and the rest :rolleyes:

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

http://www.greanvillepost.com/2016/09/13/clinton-russia-has-us-media-forgotten-the-1990s/

From that ridiculously silly and gloriously clueless piece of text:

CrankVillePost wrote:

The Russian government has also created “Nashi” summer camps, hoping to cultivate and train the best and brightest young Russians to work for the good of their nation.

FYI - Наши (Nashi) is in many respects based upon the Hitler youth, hence its nickname - Putinjungend.

The author seems to be unaware - god knows how, since all you have to do is type "nashi" into google - that Nashi ran into Russian-level problems with corruption and violence some years back and is now generally defunct, having had its functions generally replaced by smaller organizations under the Kremlin's closer control.

robindch

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I've pondered this quite a bit and basically I can come to no better explanation than it is simply the latest fashion

That's about the height of it. People have forgotten that the EU was created to bind the countries of Europe together with a set of supranational institutions which could generally distract everybody by making them trade and travel together, instead of invading each other every few decades.

As you say, people who like to seem edgy or counter-cultural - well, all they have to do is object to laws, rules, customs, understandings and that kind of thing.

That's arguably a good thing in a hunter-gatherer society where the population is small, where things things are easy to understand, and if things go off the rails, small numbers of people have the option of throwing sticks and stones at each other.

It's not a good thing in a complex society containing millions of people where multilateral, international consensus and trust takes decades to build, months to destroy and where there are large armies carrying weapons of mass destruction and the willingness to use them.

PopePalpatine

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I've pondered this quite a bit and basically I can come to no better explanation than it is simply the latest fashion; looking at the US/West/First World/EU as the 'bad guy' has been a hard-left position for quite a while. Now since the late-00's it has become a hard-right position too, originating primarily I think in the need of the American right to utterly disown Obama and any decisions he made, which then broadened out to Europe in the form of anti-EU or anti-migration policy sentiment. Plus there is the usual edginess of knowing 'the truth' and being separate from 'the sheeple' - then again I could be wrong or I could be a victim of this kind of 'truth knowing' myself, a wonderful logical conundrum

For the far-/alt-right, what is there to hate about Russia and Putin? There's a typical strongman at the helm and a strong focus on family values, jingoistic machismo and the Church.

Irish Praetorian

PopePalpatine wrote: »

For the far-/alt-right, what is there to hate about Russia and Putin? There's a typical strongman at the helm and a strong focus on family values, jingoistic machismo and the Church.

Previously it would have been patriotism, but as I say, I think Obama and the rise of a knee-jerk opposition to everything and anything he represented (within the US at-least) put an end to that. Whether the sense of patriotism returns under Trump, particularly in respect of his ability or inability to deliver on campaign promises, looks very intriguing.

Yourself isit

robindch wrote: »

Looking at these two foolish replies, I'm reminded of Michael Gove's moronic comment to the effect that "the people" have had enough of people who've made a serious effort to understand a topic.

Back off to youtube now with the two of you, lads. You know the moon landing was faked by Bigfoot and the CIA? A nice Russian lad on youtube told me :rolleyes:

Lol.

Are you protected from censure by being a mod? Seems like those attacks are ad homs and strawman arguments.

Now I didn't say anything about the Russian invasion of crimea one way or the other (what I will say about it is at its worst is that it's a pretty minor affair compared to American imperialism).

All I did was ridicule your childish half brained argument that because you once took a photo with your iPhone in the Ukraine that you know everything that is is to be known about Ukrainian politics or whether there was US interference or not

cnocbui

You are claiming a superior understanding of Ukraine and it's politics. What is the basis for your claim? When were you last there? What do you do that makes you think your knowledge is more valid?

Elmer Blooker

robindch wrote: »

"Erased"? Next, you'll be going on about the "corporatist mass media", "agendas", "sheeple"

Nice try.
Any opinion on the glorious free democratic Yeltsin period then?
You must have some opinion?

robindch

Yourself isit wrote: »

All I did was ridicule your childish half brained argument that because you once took a photo with your iPhone in the Ukraine that you know everything that is is to be known about Ukrainian politics or whether there was US interference or not

Can you point out where I said that, please?

B_Wayne

Yourself isit wrote: »

Lol.

Are you protected from censure by being a mod? Seems like those attacks are ad homs and strawman arguments.

Now I didn't say anything about the Russian invasion of crimea one way or the other (what I will say about it is at its worst is that it's a pretty minor affair compared to American imperialism).

All I did was ridicule your childish half brained argument that because you once took a photo with your iPhone in the Ukraine that you know everything that is is to be known about Ukrainian politics or whether there was US interference or not

I think Robin has articulated far more salient and intelligible points than the Russian propaganda bots. I've been to Ukraine, I work with loads of Ukrainians and they'd be pissing themselves laughing to see all the rubbish recited in here. We've got one poster who has a firm belief the Rotschild's have orchestrated the entire thing....

I'll happily agree that plenty of Ukrainians identify with being Russian moreso than Ukrainian however Crimea was illegally annexed. No international body recognised their elections. They were held under the completely wrong conditions and to see people calling it legit or whatever is sickening. This choice to be ignorant or rewrite what happened, frankly it shows a complete lack of respect for democratic processes.

[Deleted User]

robindch wrote: »

^^^ Never fails to amaze me how Putin's foreign (?) friends feel qualified to sound off on a complex, multifaceted conflict concerning a country that most or all of them couldn't place on a map.

Слава Україні!

Glory to Ukraine??? Ok..... The 1918 version of the Ukrainian state didn't have the Crimea within its borders. I'm sure it'll get used to not having it again.

robindch

cnocbui wrote: »

You are claiming a superior understanding of Ukraine and it's politics. What is the basis for your claim?

Not a "superior" understanding - but much better knowledge, based upon substantial first-hand experience of the region, the country and its people built up over around 20 years of travelling there and to surrounding countries.

cnocbui wrote: »

When were you last there?

I don't quite see how that's relevant to anything, but for your information, I was last there in January. When were you last there?

cnocbui wrote: »

What do you do that makes you think your knowledge is more valid?

Because (a) it's from extensive first-hand experience which I note neither you nor any of the other Putin supporters appears to have and (b) it doesn't come from easily debunked media outlets controlled by, or following the media playbook of, the Russian state which has a strong and very easily-understood reason to discredit and misrepresent actual events there - especially to people who have little or no first-hand experience of the country or anything related to it.

I mean, one of the pro-Putin poster claimed that Yushenko had been assassinated (he's still alive) while another appears to think that the country's name is "The Ukraine" (the elected government of Ukraine requested that the "the" be dropped in 1993, a request which has generally been honored).

One really has to wonder whether it's even worth attempting to discuss anything substantial with posters who can't even get some of the really basic stuff right.

cnocbui

robindch wrote: »

Not a "superior" understanding - but much better knowledge, based upon substantial first-hand experience of the region, the country and its people built up over around 20 years of travelling there and to surrounding countries.I don't quite see how that's relevant to anything, but for your information, I was last there in January. When were you last there?Because (a) it's from extensive first-hand experience which I note neither you nor any of the other Putin supporters appears to have and (b) it doesn't come from easily debunked media outlets controlled by, or following the media playbook of, the Russian state which has a strong and very easily-understood reason to discredit and misrepresent actual events there - especially to people who have little or no first-hand experience of the country or anything related to it.

I mean, one of the pro-Putin poster claimed that Yushenko had been assassinated (he's still alive) while another appears to think that the country's name is "The Ukraine" (the elected government of Ukraine requested that the "the" be dropped in 1993, a request which has generally been honored).

One really has to wonder whether it's even worth attempting to discuss anything substantial with posters who can't even get some of the really basic stuff right.

You might have gotten the wrong end of the stick there. My post immediately followed Yourself isit's so I didn't think I needed to quote him/her to make it obvious who I was replying to.

conditioned games

Robin these are your views so far.

Denied US involvement in the Ukrainian coup when even Obama said "Washington had brokered a deal to transition power" while US assistant secretary Victoria Nuland openly said, the US invested $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991 and the IMF gave a loan of $17 billion in 2014 most of which has been spent on military in the Ukrainian civil war.

Failed to acknowledge the Russian speaking population of Ukraine because you didn't meet anybody while holidaying in Kiev.

Said Crimea was invaded by Russia when the majority population speak Russian and voted to leave. It was only 1954 when Crimea was given to Ukraine.

Incorrectly said the EU did not give Ukraine an ultimatum to be a member of one or the other regarding the possibility of being a member of both the Eurasian alliance and the EU.

Incorrectly said Russia invaded Georgia when in fact it was Georgia invading South Ossetia that triggered the war there.

Given the above and your obnoxious attitude of know it all because you holidayed in Ukraine, it really is hard to take you seriously.

Gatling

conditioned games wrote: »

Robin these are your views so far.

Denied US involvement in the Ukrainian coup when even Obama said "Washington had brokered a deal to transition power" while US assistant secretary Victoria Nuland openly said, the US invested $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991 and the IMF gave a loan of $17 billion in 2014 most of which has been spent on military in the Ukrainian civil war.

Failed to acknowledge the Russian speaking population of Ukraine because you didn't meet anybody while holidaying in Kiev.

Said Crimea was invaded by Russia when the majority population speak Russian and voted to leave. It was only 1954 when Crimea was given to Ukraine.

Incorrectly said the EU did not give Ukraine an ultimatum to be a member of one or the other regarding the possibility of being a member of both the Eurasian alliance and the EU.

Incorrectly said Russia invaded Georgia when in fact it was Georgia invading South Ossetia that triggered the war there.

Given the above and your obnoxious attitude of know it all because you holidayed in Ukraine, it really is hard to take you seriously.

Lol it actually gets worse .

So brokered a deal to allow the transition of power = coup despite no coup actually taken place ,
The majority of Crimea voted to rejoin russia the whole 120%+ of the population yeah right ,they only made up a 58% of the population but yet 120% said they voted to rejoin russia ,you forget the part where Vladi himself publicly stated he decided to take Crimea back when the protests stated ,read the memos

And Georgia invaded itself Bahaaaa

Comedy Gold

el diablo

conditioned games wrote: »

Robin these are your views so far.

Denied US involvement in the Ukrainian coup when even Obama said "Washington had brokered a deal to transition power" while US assistant secretary Victoria Nuland openly said, the US invested $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991 and the IMF gave a loan of $17 billion in 2014 most of which has been spent on military in the Ukrainian civil war.

Failed to acknowledge the Russian speaking population of Ukraine because you didn't meet anybody while holidaying in Kiev.

Said Crimea was invaded by Russia when the majority population speak Russian and voted to leave. It was only 1954 when Crimea was given to Ukraine.

Incorrectly said the EU did not give Ukraine an ultimatum to be a member of one or the other regarding the possibility of being a member of both the Eurasian alliance and the EU.

Incorrectly said Russia invaded Georgia when in fact it was Georgia invading South Ossetia that triggered the war there.

Given the above and your obnoxious attitude of know it all because you holidayed in Ukraine, it really is hard to take you seriously.

We're wasting our time trying to educate these people as their minds are completely closed to the real facts. They'll look pretty foolish when the truth does eventually come out.

B_Wayne

conditioned games wrote: »

Robin these are your views so far.

Denied US involvement in the Ukrainian coup when even Obama said "Washington had brokered a deal to transition power" while US assistant secretary Victoria Nuland openly said, the US invested $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991 and the IMF gave a loan of $17 billion in 2014 most of which has been spent on military in the Ukrainian civil war.

Failed to acknowledge the Russian speaking population of Ukraine because you didn't meet anybody while holidaying in Kiev.

Said Crimea was invaded by Russia when the majority population speak Russian and voted to leave. It was only 1954 when Crimea was given to Ukraine.

Incorrectly said the EU did not give Ukraine an ultimatum to be a member of one or the other regarding the possibility of being a member of both the Eurasian alliance and the EU.

Incorrectly said Russia invaded Georgia when in fact it was Georgia invading South Ossetia that triggered the war there.

Given the above and your obnoxious attitude of know it all because you holidayed in Ukraine, it really is hard to take you seriously.

When an election is internationally viewed as being illegal due to a pretty dodgy basis, that is an illegal vote. It is not because of the Rotschild's that it's viewed to be illegal, it's because of an established international basis for fair, legal referendums and elections where none of the populace feel under threat.

Plenty of people feel under threat in Crimea because of those who have illegally annexed Crimea. Shall we discuss the fact that numerous Crimean Tatars have gone missing in the region since the occupation began? Man, you have high aims for democracy, lets jump back to Soviet style treatment of Crimean Tatars....

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/protect-us-russian-persecution-pleads-crimean-tatar-politician-1612706

You have an odd view of the world, it is based in conspiracies that frequently are bat**** insane. You're praising authoritarianism but not caring about what consequences it will have. For a person who considers himself so passionate about freedom, you frequently support those who wish to violate those freedoms and protections.

Elmer Blooker

B_Wayne wrote: »

You have an odd view of the world, it is based in conspiracies that frequently are bat**** insane. You're praising authoritarianism but not caring about what consequences it will have. For a person who considers himself so passionate about freedom, you frequently support those who wish to violate those freedoms and protections.

This is coming from someone who thinks Khrushchev's 1954 decision to transfer Crimea to Ukraine without consulting a single solitary citizen of Crimea to be legitimate!
Surely you're not supporting this undemocratic decision made by an authoritarian Soviet dictator?

conditioned games

B_Wayne wrote: »

You have an odd view of the world, it is based in conspiracies that frequently are bat**** insane. You're praising authoritarianism but not caring about what consequences it will have. For a person who considers himself so passionate about freedom, you frequently support those who wish to violate those freedoms and protections.

I never praised authoritarianism. If a region does not want to be part of Ukraine then they shouldn't be forced. We see the consequences of this in Russian speaking east Ukraine where the Ukrainian government, with financial help from the US and IMF are killing people in a civil war. In Crimea the bloodshed was thankfully avoided, much to the annoyance of the US and people like yourself.

B_Wayne

conditioned games wrote: »

I never praised authoritarianism. If a region does not want to be part of Ukraine then they shouldn't be forced. We see the consequences of this in Russian speaking east Ukraine where the Ukrainian government, with financial help from the US and IMF are killing people in a civil war. In Crimea the bloodshed was thankfully avoided, much to the annoyance of the US and people like yourself.

And the Crimean Tatars just gracefully avoid your radar? Human rights organisations back me up on this. They are very much so persecuted. A referendum that is viewed as illegal by international organisation and had no official observers on it. OSCE military observers were sent out and faced the risk of being shot.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/15/thwarted-crimea-mission-of-osce-observers

So yep, you do support authoritarianism when you support such a circus of a referendum. You knowingly ignore what was effectively an invasion with an illegitimate referendum tacked on.

conditioned games

B_Wayne wrote: »

And the Crimean Tatars just gracefully avoid your radar? Human rights organisations back me up on this. They are very much so persecuted. A referendum that is viewed as illegal by international organisation and had no official observers on it. OSCE military observers were sent out and faced the risk of being shot.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/03/15/thwarted-crimea-mission-of-osce-observers

So yep, you do support authoritarianism when you support such a circus of a referendum. You knowingly ignore what was effectively an invasion with an illegitimate referendum tacked on.

What makes you think Tatars are being persecuted. A link to a euronews site saying officials were denied access to Crimea back in 2014 doesn't support your theory. Would you rather the people of Crimea had to fight for their freedom from Ukraine rather than a peaceful vote?

prinzeugen

conditioned games wrote: »

I never praised authoritarianism. If a region does not want to be part of Ukraine then they shouldn't be forced. We see the consequences of this in Russian speaking east Ukraine where the Ukrainian government, with financial help from the US and IMF are killing people in a civil war. In Crimea the bloodshed was thankfully avoided, much to the annoyance of the US and people like yourself.

You know that you sound like Hilter. Being able to speak Russian does not make you Russian.

That region of Ukraine IS being forced to be a part of Russia, By Russian forces as was Crimea.

Putin is doing a Hitler. Once he goes too far he will suffer the same fate.

Where is next?

Gringo180

prinzeugen wrote: »

That region of Ukraine IS being forced to be a part of Russia, By Russian forces as was Crimea.

Did they not vote to rejoin Russia in an overwhelming fashion?

Gatling

Gringo180 wrote: »

Did they not vote to rejoin Russia in an overwhelming fashion?

120% of the population did but how did they take 58% and make it 120% ,

If you can't figure that one out,

But back to the part where Vladi himself publicly stated he decided to 'take back "Crimea when the protests started no Democratic process or consultations with Ukraine and it's citizens ,But the need for russian military forces to enter illegally and force some kind of vote at Gunpoint

The penny will eventually drop

cnocbui

conditioned games wrote: »

What makes you think Tatars are being persecuted. A link to a euronews site saying officials were denied access to Crimea back in 2014 doesn't support your theory. Would you rather the people of Crimea had to fight for their freedom from Ukraine rather than a peaceful vote?

Amnesty International say so:

The Crimean Tatar community has been subjected to systematic persecution by the Russian authorities since the occupation and illegal annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, said Amnesty International in a report published today.

In the Dark: The silencing of dissent looks at the repressive tactics employed by the Russian authorities against the Crimean Tartar community and other dissenting voices in the two and a half years they have been in control the Crimean peninsula.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/12/crimea-in-the-dark-the-silencing-of-dissent/

Gringo180

Gatling wrote: »

120% of the population did but how did they take 58% and make it 120% ,

If you can't figure that one out,

But back to the part where Vladi himself publicly stated he decided to 'take back "Crimea when the protests started no Democratic process or consultations with Ukraine and it's citizens ,But the need for russian military forces to enter illegally and force some kind of vote at Gunpoint

The penny will eventually drop

Any facts involved here or is it just your blatant bias against anything Russian taking over?

Vote at gunpoint? Is this some sort of wind up?

XsApollo

Well Vlad must be doing something right.
2 years later and the thread is still going.

[Deleted User]

Gatling wrote: »

120% of the population did but how did they take 58% and make it 120% ,

If you can't figure that one out,

But back to the part where Vladi himself publicly stated he decided to 'take back "Crimea when the protests started no Democratic process or consultations with Ukraine and it's citizens ,But the need for russian military forces to enter illegally and force some kind of vote at Gunpoint

The penny will eventually drop

Despite your continued outrage, can you honestly see Crimea returning to the Ukraine in the near future? Interesting reading:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/john-o%25E2%2580%2599loughlin-gerard-toal/crimean-conundrum

XsApollo

Of all the leaders in the world right now, if I had to pick one.
Vlad would be number one

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Despite your continued outrage, can you honestly see Crimea returning to the Ukraine in the near future? Interesting reading:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/john-o%25E2%2580%2599loughlin-gerard-toal/crimean-conundrum

I'm sure the 750 russians surveyed would say no ,

If russia was actually punished severely kicked out of the swift banking system for a start it might be possible ,
But might be a better idea starting in Georgia and then going back to Crimea