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The Vladimir Putin appreciation thread.

Jimmy Garlic

He has to be one of the greatest leaders the world has ever known, not just a stuffed suit like his wooden American counterpart. His steadfast resolve in the face of a proxy war being waged in Ukraine has to be admired, a war that would never have happened if billions weren't poured into Ukraine to kickstart a coup.

Like him or loathe him there is no doubt that Vladimir Putin is a very shrewd operator who is consistently one step ahead of the game.

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Irish Praetorian

PopePalpatine wrote: »

For the far-/alt-right, what is there to hate about Russia and Putin? There's a typical strongman at the helm and a strong focus on family values, jingoistic machismo and the Church.

Previously it would have been patriotism, but as I say, I think Obama and the rise of a knee-jerk opposition to everything and anything he represented (within the US at-least) put an end to that. Whether the sense of patriotism returns under Trump, particularly in respect of his ability or inability to deliver on campaign promises, looks very intriguing.

PopePalpatine

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I've pondered this quite a bit and basically I can come to no better explanation than it is simply the latest fashion; looking at the US/West/First World/EU as the 'bad guy' has been a hard-left position for quite a while. Now since the late-00's it has become a hard-right position too, originating primarily I think in the need of the American right to utterly disown Obama and any decisions he made, which then broadened out to Europe in the form of anti-EU or anti-migration policy sentiment. Plus there is the usual edginess of knowing 'the truth' and being separate from 'the sheeple' - then again I could be wrong or I could be a victim of this kind of 'truth knowing' myself, a wonderful logical conundrum

For the far-/alt-right, what is there to hate about Russia and Putin? There's a typical strongman at the helm and a strong focus on family values, jingoistic machismo and the Church.

robindch

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I've pondered this quite a bit and basically I can come to no better explanation than it is simply the latest fashion

That's about the height of it. People have forgotten that the EU was created to bind the countries of Europe together with a set of supranational institutions which could generally distract everybody by making them trade and travel together, instead of invading each other every few decades.

As you say, people who like to seem edgy or counter-cultural - well, all they have to do is object to laws, rules, customs, understandings and that kind of thing.

That's arguably a good thing in a hunter-gatherer society where the population is small, where things things are easy to understand, and if things go off the rails, small numbers of people have the option of throwing sticks and stones at each other.

It's not a good thing in a complex society containing millions of people where multilateral, international consensus and trust takes decades to build, months to destroy and where there are large armies carrying weapons of mass destruction and the willingness to use them.

robindch

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Like the liberal democratic Yeltsin years?
This era has been erased from history so here is a very interesting read to remind you what a "free" Russia was like.

"Erased"? Next, you'll be going on about the "corporatist mass media", "agendas", "sheeple" and the rest :rolleyes:

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

http://www.greanvillepost.com/2016/09/13/clinton-russia-has-us-media-forgotten-the-1990s/

From that ridiculously silly and gloriously clueless piece of text:

CrankVillePost wrote:

The Russian government has also created “Nashi” summer camps, hoping to cultivate and train the best and brightest young Russians to work for the good of their nation.

FYI - Наши (Nashi) is in many respects based upon the Hitler youth, hence its nickname - Putinjungend.

The author seems to be unaware - god knows how, since all you have to do is type "nashi" into google - that Nashi ran into Russian-level problems with corruption and violence some years back and is now generally defunct, having had its functions generally replaced by smaller organizations under the Kremlin's closer control.

Irish Praetorian

humanji wrote: »

Why are people so desperate to assume there must be a good guy? They're all villains. They've all done terrible things. And they'll all continue to do terrible things to ensure their own survival.

I've pondered this quite a bit and basically I can come to no better explanation than it is simply the latest fashion; looking at the US/West/First World/EU as the 'bad guy' has been a hard-left position for quite a while. Now since the late-00's it has become a hard-right position too, originating primarily I think in the need of the American right to utterly disown Obama and any decisions he made, which then broadened out to Europe in the form of anti-EU or anti-migration policy sentiment. Plus there is the usual edginess of knowing 'the truth' and being separate from 'the sheeple' - then again I could be wrong or I could be a victim of this kind of 'truth knowing' myself, a wonderful logical conundrum

humanji

BuyersRemorse wrote: »

It would take folk approximately 5 minutes to read up on US Interventions worldwide, politically and Military, since World War 2, and the resultant misery they have inflicted. If people still want to view Russia and/or China as the bogey men for the new millennium, then there's very little you could say to change their minds.

Why are people so desperate to assume there must be a good guy? They're all villains. They've all done terrible things. And they'll all continue to do terrible things to ensure their own survival.

Elmer Blooker

robindch wrote: »

It remains to be seen whether it can come out the other side and back into a liberal democratic mode without the usual intervention of significant war.

Like the liberal democratic Yeltsin years?
This era has been erased from history so here is a very interesting read to remind you what a "free" Russia was like.
http://www.greanvillepost.com/2016/09/13/clinton-russia-has-us-media-forgotten-the-1990s/

robindch

BuyersRemorse wrote: »

It would take folk approximately 5 minutes to read up on US Interventions worldwide, politically and Military, since World War 2, and the resultant misery they have inflicted.

I don't think that anybody here has denied that some US interventions have been disastrous. The US made no significant intervention, before, during or after, the Maidan protests which led to Yanukovich departing the scene.

In this thread, we are discussing Ukraine and, from time to time, Russia's constant insistence that it was the US/EU/CIA/Mossad which triggered the protests and Yanukovich's departure.

Russia is lying. In Ukraine, people were pissed off with (a) massive corruption, so they protested. And the protests brought (b) a crackdown from the president. And (c) the crackdown went sour. And (d) the president fled. It really is as simple as that.

One doesn't need a degree in Modern Russian History to see why Putin might be very interested in saying that "it was foreigners". After all, Putin himself had got as far as (b) himself the year before in the Болотная Площадь, Bolotnaya Square, protests in Moscow and was starting to look uncharacteristically wobbly.

I mean, this explanation - which has the benefit of being quite easy to piece together - is straightforward and simple. No need to propose complicated, improbable stories involving foreign spies, hacked phone calls, US vice-presidents - stories with evidential holes which a horse could poke sticks through.

BuyersRemorse

It would take folk approximately 5 minutes to read up on US Interventions worldwide, politically and Military, since World War 2, and the resultant misery they have inflicted. If people still want to view Russia and/or China as the bogey men for the new millennium, then there's very little you could say to change their minds.

robindch

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

The Donbas is just the latest in the line of Russian 'near abroad' incursions. Crimea, Abkhazia and south Ossetia in Georgia, Transdniestria in Moldova.

I've been to Abkhazia and Transdniestra - they're both unforgettable places for all the wrong reasons - both are neo-soviet throwbacks, corrupt beyond belief with creaking economies sustained by a dripfeed of officials and cash from Moscow, limited life expectancy and social problems to a band playing. Ossetia appears to be similar and Crimea is heading that way fast.

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

Russia still hankers for the bygone days of power in much the same way as the UK is currently doing with it's Brexit notions of 'taking back control' and re-constituting the Empire. Trump is also going to 'make America great again' apparently, by building a wall and increasing his military spending. Another effort to re-create the past.

For a few years - perhaps since Russia's invasion of Georgia - the world has been heading into one of its periodic dalliances with petty, occasionally vicious nationalism, authoritarianism and artificial border/foreigner problems.

It remains to be seen whether it can come out the other side and back into a liberal democratic mode without the usual intervention of significant war.

robindch

^^^ Never fails to amaze me how Putin's foreign (?) friends feel qualified to sound off on a complex, multifaceted conflict concerning a country that most or all of them couldn't place on a map.

Слава Україні!

el diablo

robindch wrote: »

Looking at these two foolish replies, I'm reminded of Michael Gove's moronic comment to the effect that "the people" have had enough of people who've made a serious effort to understand a topic.

Back off to youtube now with the two of you, lads. You know the moon landing was faked by Bigfoot and the CIA? A nice Russian lad on youtube told me :rolleyes:

You claim to have spent time in Ukraine but you are completely clueless as to what really happened there. You're just another victim of the mass brainwashing regarding Russia. Don't bother to respond as I'm unsubscribing from this thread and your response won't be read. :rolleyes:

1st dalkey dalkey

The Donbas is just the latest in the line of Russian 'near abroad' incursions. Crimea, Abkhazia and south Ossetia in Georgia, Transdniestria in Moldova.
Claiming that it is all the fault of the USA is just like the Isis. Everything is the fault of the great satan. It is a handy, but patently ridiculous way out for a regime with no other way out.
Russia still hankers for the bygone days of power in much the same way as the UK is currently doing with it's Brexit notions of 'taking back control' and re-constituting the Empire. Trump is also going to 'make America great again' apparently, by building a wall and increasing his military spending. Another effort to re-create the past.
They are all equally stupid and it would be laughable if it weren't so dangerous.
Time waits for no man (or woman).

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You know very little about Ukraine and Russia. Up until a few years ago no doubt you thought Kiev was a breaded chicken dish with garlic sauce inside.

Unfortunately Jimmy yet again your wrong ,

But hey keep trying x

robindch

el diablo wrote: »

What a nonsensical, ignorant comment. So basically you've spoken to a Ukrainian guy who told you of his version of events and you've taken it as gospel.

Yourself isit wrote: »

Why do you think a trip to a country makes you the expert on it? what did you see to confirm or deny what anybody else would know from disparate sources. Were you privy to some secret information?

And how does this apply across boards. Should we limit discussion on the French election to people who have holiday snaps of the eiffel tower?

Looking at these two foolish replies, I'm reminded of Michael Gove's moronic comment to the effect that "the people" have had enough of people who've made a serious effort to understand a topic.

Back off to youtube now with the two of you, lads. You know the moon landing was faked by Bigfoot and the CIA? A nice Russian lad on youtube told me :rolleyes:

PhuckHugh

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You know very little about Ukraine and Russia. Up until a few years ago no doubt you thought Kiev was a breaded chicken dish with garlic sauce inside.

oooft.

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

How bout an Intelligence test on the subject before been allowed to post ,

Might up a very quiet and quick discussion

You know very little about Ukraine and Russia. Up until a few years ago no doubt you thought Kiev was a breaded chicken dish with garlic sauce inside.

XsApollo

It's not the first time they have done it and it won't be the last.

XsApollo

Obama has admitted they were involved.
They were backing people and facilitating them to take power from the government that was in place.
They wanted Ukraine to be PRO Europe and move away from Russia and they didn't give a toss who was trying to take power as long as they weren't Russia aligned.

Gatling

Yourself isit wrote: »

And how does this apply across boards. Should we limit discussion on the French election to people who have holiday snaps of the eiffel tower?

How bout an Intelligence test on the subject before been allowed to post ,

Might end up a very quiet and quick discussion

Yourself isit

robindch wrote: »

I note you've shifted from "the US" to "US interests" - your point of view might be a little more credible if you stuck to holding just the one.It would, of course, be interesting and useful for you to share information concerning your time in Ukraine, and one wonders why you refuse to do so in a thread concerning the country - unless it happens that you were just transiting the country briefly, in which case, staying schtum is wise indeed

In any case, is there really much of a point in discussing something with somebody who adds to an earlier insulting implication that I am a liar, by suggesting that I might be an idiot too?

Why do you think a trip to a country makes you the expert on it? what did you see to confirm or deny what anybody else would know from disparate sources. Were you privy to some secret information?

And how does this apply across boards. Should we limit discussion on the French election to people who have holiday snaps of the eiffel tower?

el diablo

robindch wrote: »

Grand, I'll take that as an admission that you weren't there and spoke with nobody.

Hardly any point in you repeating your evidence-free claims at this point?

What a nonsensical, ignorant comment. So basically you've spoken to a Ukrainian guy who told you of his version of events and you've taken it as gospel.

robindch

el diablo wrote: »

Even if you were actually there you'd have no idea what was really going on behind the scenes and who orchestrated it.

Grand, I'll take that as an admission that you weren't there and spoke with nobody.

Hardly any point in you repeating your evidence-free claims at this point?

el diablo

robindch wrote: »

Luckily, I was there and saw what happened with my own eyes and spoke to some of the people involved.

Were you there? And did you speak with the people on the front line?

Even if you were actually there you'd have no idea what was really going on behind the scenes and who orchestrated it. Anyway, the truth will out eventually.

robindch

conditioned games wrote: »

Your nearly as blind as Gatling, if the sky was blue you'd say it's green because the controlled western media told you.

Luckily, I was there and saw what happened with my own eyes and spoke to some of the people involved.

Were you there? And did you speak with the people on the front line?

conditioned games

el diablo wrote: »

Think we're wasting our time here attempting to educate these people. :rolleyes:

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

Your right. They are happy to believe the narrative they've being fed and unwilling to see reality. The demonization of Russia over the last 6yrs has been shameful but we may as well be taking to a wall on here with some.

el diablo

conditioned games wrote: »

Your nearly as blind as Gatling, if the sky was blue you'd say it's green because the controlled western media told you. You can deny US involvement in the coup and subsequently civil war in Ukraine if you want but the pictures and videos that have come out during and after the events have told a different story.

Think we're wasting our time here attempting to educate these people. :rolleyes:

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

Gatling

conditioned games wrote: »

Your nearly as blind as Gatling, if the sky was blue you'd say it's green because the controlled western media told you. You can deny US involvement in the coup and subsequently civil war in Ukraine if you want but the pictures and videos that have come out during and after the events have told a different story.

Stop seriously ,

The facts speak for themselves ,we yet to see anything that proves otherwise even putin himself publicly said it maybe check the old memo's

conditioned games

robindch wrote: »

For better or for worse, the US and its agents played no significant part in events in Ukraine since 2014.

Your nearly as blind as Gatling, if the sky was blue you'd say it's green because the controlled western media told you. You can deny US involvement in the coup and subsequently civil war in Ukraine if you want but the pictures and videos that have come out during and after the events have told a different story.

Gatling

Fail