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RIP Martin McGuinness

thee glitz

Former Deputy First Minister of NI Martin McGuinness has died. May he RIP.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0321/861287-martin-mcguinness-death/

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Jayop

Thomas__ wrote: »

Maybe more on a rate of 50/50% depending on the author and his background who writes about him.

I think not. I think that it'll be closer to 90% positive if the comments coming out today are anything to go by.

Fratton Fred

Zebra3 wrote: »

The voices of those who feel they have the right to slaughter brown and black skinned people across the globe yet look down on MMcG as scum.

Not too difficult for most educated people to understand.

You think the British Establishment and white supremacism aren't linked?

and the lizard people, don't forget the lizards :rolleyes:

Jelle1880

Jayop wrote: »

I think not. I think that it'll be closer to 90% positive if the comments coming out today are anything to go by.

Depends.

Give it a few days and I'm sure the different versions of his history with the IRA will start surfacing, ranging from how he was just a member to being a British spy or whatever other theory people may have.

Thomas__

Jayop wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

Maybe more on a rate of 50/50% depending on the author and his background who writes about him.

I think not. I think that it'll be closer to 90% positive if the comments coming out today are anything to go by.

Deduct those you deem as being only hypocrisy or lipservice and see what is left of the 90%. You can have those 90% coming from Irish Republican and nationalists in NI, there I have no doubt about it. It is of a lesser rate when it is expressed by people living in the Republic and probably even lesser from those Unionists and Loyalists in NI.

It will always be that way that some people prefer to look at the positives he has done and others who just look at his IRA past. It will take time to bring about a balanced view in which both parts of his biography are viewed in balanced way that takes everything into account and leaves it to the reader what he or she makes of it.

stooge

RIP

Whatever goes on in this thread it can be said without doubt that his place as a leader in Republicanism, N Irish Politics and the Peace Process is cemented. Of that there is no argument.

The quote above from Adams was very apt, and one that very few on here will ever understand, as they never have or will experience a situation like NI in the 60s/70s.

Jayop

Thomas__ wrote: »

Deduct those you deem as being only hypocrisy or lipservice and see what is left of the 90%. You can have those 90% coming from Irish Republican and nationalists in NI, there I have no doubt about it. It is of a lesser rate when it is expressed by people living in the Republic and probably even lesser from those Unionists and Loyalists in NI.

It will always be that way that some people prefer to look at the positives he has done and others who just look at his IRA past. It will take time to bring about a balanced view in which both parts of his biography are viewed in balanced way that takes everything into account and leaves it to the reader what he or she makes of it.

Hence why I said history will look well on him.

Stars and Stripes

Snickers Man wrote: »

What do you expect? The IRA nearly killed his wife in the Brighton bombing and left her permanently paralysed. He was badly injured too and was dug out from the rubble in full view of the TV cameras. It's ghoulish to expect of him that he harbour any kind thoughts towards the IRA or its senior commanders.

He's entitled to his feelings.

Mind you, so are the many people in working class communities, especially mining communities, who were devastated by the policies of the Thatcher government of which he was the most unapologetic member of cabinet. Very much a "dry" rather than a "wet" Tory.

When he goes there will be more than a bit of "good riddance to the bastard" being voiced. And most of it will be in English accents. Indeed it was from (several) English people that I heard the joke sequence:
"What do you call a Welshman with a seagull on his head?
Cliff
What do you call an Englishman with a hotel on his head?
Norman Tebbitt"

Very rich coming from the fella who unconditionally supported British army murders across the north from Bloody Sunday to collusion with loyalists and as a member of cabinet approved the sinking of the Belgrano murdering 323 people.

Jelle1880

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Very rich coming from the fella who unconditionally supported British army murders across the north from Bloody Sunday to collusion with loyalists and as a member of cabinet approved the sinking of the Belgrano murdering 323 people.

Should that mean he shouldn't care about what happened to him and his wife ?

The level of whataboutery in this thread is ridiculous.

steddyeddy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Should that mean he shouldn't care about what happened to him and his wife ?

The level of whataboutery in this thread is ridiculous.

No but he hasn't really got the moral high ground.

The_Kew_Tour

While I cant say I have much respect for McGuiness, Norman Tebbit is one of these "I can **** on your doorstep, but don't dare **** on mine" types

munsterlegend

When you look at the ongoing intransigence of Unionist leaders today, one can only imagine what the north was like for nationalists in the 60's and 70's and since the creation of the northern state.Terrible things were done on both sides but no British Tory minister during that time from the House of Lords can hold any high moral ground.

McGuinness was a product of a dysfunctional state where law and order was disregarded by all sides. Through his leadership he brought stability and deserves a special place in Irish history.

osarusan

Don't really see the issue with relatives of IRA victims being less than praising of him.

Even still, some of those relatives, and some politicians too, have been very respectful, measured and conciliatory in their comments. I think it speaks to the impact he had on the peace process and NI in general.

Jelle1880

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but he hasn't really got the moral high ground.

I didn't have the sense he was claiming as such. Merely giving his opinion on McGuinness, like so many others.

Granny15

Deleted User wrote: »

Link?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/victims-of-ira-violence-react-to-the-death-of-martin-mcguinness-35550917.html

LordSutch

Jayop wrote: »

...... I said history will look well on him.

... History will of course look favourably on the 2nd half if his life.

However, the 1st half of his life was not so productive in preserving human life, (to put it mildly). Many IRA victims not enjoying today & the many plaudits heaped upon MMG, because for them the pain continues!

Jayop

LordSutch wrote: »

... History will of course look favourably on the 2nd half if his life.

However, the 1st half of his life was not so productive in preserving human life, (to put it mildly). Many IRA victims not enjoying today & the many plaudits heaped upon MMG, because for them the pain continues!

And when the whole life is looked at in totality history will look favorably upon him. It's not a difficult concept and not one that you should feel the need to throw a "but" in constantly.

Fratton Fred

this is probably one of the defining pictures of the whole peace process.

They had never actually spoken before, then within six months, the Chuckle Brothers are flying off for a jolly in New York and Washington.

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

... History will of course look favourably on the 2nd half if his life.

However, the 1st half of his life was not so productive in preserving human life, (to put it mildly). Many IRA victims not enjoying today & the many plaudits heaped upon MMG, because for them the pain continues!

It should be noted that victims of the conflict have been suffering everyday since it ended.

Like everyone else they have a right to assess who has done tactile things to at least remove the reasons they became victims.
Like, ensuring everyone was treated as an equal and removed at every opportunity the apparatus and operation of the sectarian bigoted state that tragically failed and imploded.

It is for being instrumental in achieving the above, that Martin McGuinness is justifiably receiving plaudits.

Junkyard Tom

LordSutch wrote: »

However, the 1st half of his life

The first half of his life for you and your ilk deliberately ignores the first 'quarter'. A young boy growing up in a society that deemed him a second class citizen in a minority-Protestant controlled Catholic-majority city.

Witnessing the RUC beating his neighbours to death. Listening to stories of the B-Specials on the way to massacre the people of the Bogside for daring to resist RUC brutality.

His pals' Dads dragged out of their beds at night by the 'security forces'. Protestors being mass-murdered by a gang of killer Paras..

When are unionists and the British ever going to come out and say 'We're sorry, we made a balls of everything and caused the troubles'. I've never heard of any prominent unionist apologise for, you know, actually causing the troubles.

Now do what you usually do and scurry off out of the thread when confronted with the reality that dismantles that 'goodies versus baddies' fantasy you play out in your mind.

My name is URL

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Should that mean he shouldn't care about what happened to him and his wife ?

The level of whataboutery in this thread is ridiculous.

That senile old gobshite lost any moral high ground he may have had when he himself decided to incite murder

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/norman-tebbit-i-hope-real-ira-dissidents-shoot-martin-mcguinness-for-attending-state-banquet-with-queen-at-windsor-castle-30168143.html

flutered

LordSutch wrote: »

... History will of course look favourably on the 2nd half if his life.

However, the 1st half of his life was not so productive in preserving human life, (to put it mildly). Many IRA victims not enjoying today & the many plaudits heaped upon MMG, because for them the pain continues!

only for the first part of his life, the record vote turned out in the recent election would not have happened, neither would the election

Jack the Stripper

Can I get popcorn delivered by just eat.ie?

flutered

as i have said elsewhere there are many posterson social media saying many things about him, which they did not have the courage to say to his face while he was alive

stockdam

stooge wrote: »

RIP

The quote above from Adams was very apt, and one that very few on here will ever understand, as they never have or will experience a situation like NI in the 60s/70s.

Ok by that reasoning then, I can understand. I knew idiots who joined paramilitaries and one who was arrested and put into the Maze. I had the same upbringing and "repression" but never for one minute thought of resorting to violence. Neither Adams or McGuinness nor any other paramilitary had more right than I had to feel they they needed to kill anyone.........it was just wrong.

flutered

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It should be noted that victims of the conflict have been suffering everyday since it ended.

Like everyone else they have a right to assess who has done tactile things to at least remove the reasons they became victims.
Like, ensuring everyone was treated as an equal and removed at every opportunity the apparatus and operation of the sectarian bigoted state that tragically failed and imploded.

It is for being instrumental in achieving the above, that Martin McGuinness is justifiably receiving plaudits.

there were many victims before the troubles started, who no one wants to know about

please helpThank YOU

Martin McGuinness will go down in history books as one of the Greatest Irish Men ever Nice Guy RIP.

flutered

stockdam wrote: »

Ok by that reasoning then, I can understand. I knew idiots who joined paramilitaries and one who was arrested and put into the Maze. I had the same upbringing and "repression" but never for one minute thought of resorting to violence. Neither Adams or McGuinness nor any other paramilitary had more right than I had to feel they they needed to kill anyone.........it was just wrong.

what would have been the result of things if the burning of streets of houses in nationalist areas had been allowed to continue, the b men the army etc were not interested, circumstanses alter cases, castro mandella etc, the we had the opposite from peron for one

end of the road

today is a sad day for this nation, with the sad loss of our boy martin, taken way too soon from us.
a man who struggled living under sectarian rule, and who bravely stood up to fight and eradicate it, a goal he achieved.
he had been working in the background before hand to bring about change via peaceful means but had been met with all sorts in return and he had to fight.
he later renounced violence and went back to working tirelessly to bring about peace, another goal he achieved, for which many many are very greatful.
martin, you will be remembered by me and many until our dying days for the work you did, to eradicate sectarian rule and implement an equal fair society, so that our northern brothers and sisters could live in a free nation.
while it is a crying shame that there had to be troubled times and huge losses of life on both sides who should never be forgotten, times which could have been avoided had britain shared your view of NI being a fair equal society, the north is now at peace and is a much better place thanks to your efforts.
ultimately your work is done, your goals achieved, and a united ireland is coming.
rest in peace

Jelle1880

My name is URL wrote: »

That senile old gobshite lost any moral high ground he may have had when he himself decided to incite murder

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/norman-tebbit-i-hope-real-ira-dissidents-shoot-martin-mcguinness-for-attending-state-banquet-with-queen-at-windsor-castle-30168143.html

What the f*ck is it with this idea that he's claiming the high ground ? He's doing no such thing.

And at least he only said those things, McGuinness actually carried them out.

Manic Moran

Without delving into the moral morass over when it is justifiable to move to arms in order to obtain at least the fair treatment demanded by NICRA in the '60s, and arguments over whether or not governments should negotiate with terrorists to obtain peace...

Ones freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

I keep seeing this quote, which is complete BS. It is entirely possible to be a freedom fighter without being a terrorist. George Washington was not a terrorist. Michael Collins was not a terrorist (Regardless of what their opposition called them). They did not deliberately and with aforethought target innocent people going about their daily lives on shopping streets. They did not plant bombs in the middle of town like on "Bloody Friday." They did not kill a family on their vacation in Sligo. Guerrillas, even urban guerrillas like Collins, are just as much freedom fighters, except they are selective in their choice of target. I accept that McGuinness may have steered the PIRA towards attacking government force targets, which is, in such a case, a good point in his favour. But claiming "I am fighting for freedom" does not give moral carte blanche to conduct oneself outside of reasonable bounds.