Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

cosanostra wrote: »

Granuaile getting kitted out in Galway https://twitter.com/fcorby/status/843094580220313600

I wouldn't be surprised if the Explorer heads back up too

jmayo wrote: »

I actually would trust the fishermen and local civilians who are lending a hand above some of our state services.

The AGS have requested people to hand in anything to local Garda Station and AFAIK Belmullet has been used as storage point.

Are you seriously asking that question ?
All the SAR piliots are very much aware of that rocky island with the big bloody lighthouse on top of it and they don't rely on Sky Demon, Iphones, or Google for their navigation.

The fact someone is aware of Skydemon and yet thinks a professional SAR operation hasn't anything better scares me, most especially if they are a pilot.

They aren't going to damage wreckage. The key thing is to record where it was found. The locals will know the trap points in the rocks like I do on my stretch & the strand lines.

Sterling Archer

I hope this doesn't come off as insensitive, would we expert ICG to retire the R116 callsign?

I've thought for a while before posting this, but as it seems to be raising it's head again, I am going to try and damp down some of the comments re Blackrock and Blacksod.

Blackrock is over 10 Nautical miles from Blacksod, which is where they were planning to land for fuel, and I would expect that their let down procedure would be similar to the profile used for a full instrument approach, so if they were operating at 4000 Ft, a gentle let down profile to allow them time to break cloud and become visually oriented before landing would have not required them to cross Blackrock at much below 3000 Ft, so massively clear of the island. To put that in context, an ILS approach to land that flies a 3 degree descent profile would be at 1500 Ft 4 miles from the runway, so it we allow an additional mile to ensure good transition, they would have started descent at about 13 miles, which is a mile before Blackrock, and been descending at less than 400 Ft per mile.

There is no way that we can get a definitive statement about exactly what is or is not in the S92 database, the issue has been raised, and cannot be answered at this time, so I am going to say that for now, this subject needs to be let lie, and not constantly dragged up again, to avoid boring people. All I will add is that I will be very surprised (shocked even) if it transpires that Blackrock is not in their database, but in theory, they had no need to be anywhere close to the island to be able to fly an appropriate vertical profile for a landing at Blacksod, and having used Blacksod for refuelling on previous occasions, the crew would have been aware of the local geography.

Steve.

Several pilots on other fora have commented that, after the 360 turn, they appear to be heading for Blackrock rather than Blacksod. Given their relatively low height, had there been a major failure, they wouldn't of traveled far. So, on a normal, routine approach to Blacksod, how close would they get to Blackrock ?

Looking at the map Blackrock appears to be a significant diversion from the straight flightpath into Blacksod.

Are there any published approaches for Blacksod? Really curious as to what MSA applies in the general area.

Irish Steve wrote: »

I've thought for a while before posting this, but as it seems to be raising it's head again, I am going to try and damp down some of the comments re Blackrock and Blacksod.

Blackrock is over 10 Nautical miles from Blacksod, which is where they were planning to land for fuel, and I would expect that their let down procedure would be similar to the profile used for a full instrument approach, so if they were operating at 4000 Ft, a gentle let down profile to allow them time to break cloud and become visually oriented before landing would have not required them to cross Blackrock at much below 3000 Ft, so massively clear of the island. To put that in context, an ILS approach to land that flies a 3 degree descent profile would be at 1500 Ft 4 miles from the runway, so it we allow an additional mile to ensure good transition, they would have started descent at about 13 miles, which is a mile before Blackrock, and been descending at less than 400 Ft per mile.

There is no way that we can get a definitive statement about exactly what is or is not in the S92 database, the issue has been raised, and cannot be answered at this time, so I am going to say that for now, this subject needs to be let lie, and not constantly dragged up again, to avoid boring people. All I will add is that I will be very surprised (shocked even) if it transpires that Blackrock is not in their database, but in theory, they had no need to be anywhere close to the island to be able to fly an appropriate vertical profile for a landing at Blacksod, and having used Blacksod for refuelling on previous occasions, the crew would have been aware of the local geography.

I doubt there's any published procedures for Blacksod, as it's not as such a public facility.

In relation to the approach, post 425 earlier in the thread shows what is effectively a classic outbound, procedure turn and return for descent to Blacksod, and I would have expected them to have started the let down somewhere in the vicinity of Blackrock, to arrive at their base altitude about a mile before the coast, to give time to transition to full visual flying, albeit that all their instrument systems would have been monitoring their position with an accuracy that most pilots can only dream of.

There are possible scenarios here, but in the absence of better information, speculation about them is inappropriate.

Gaoth Laidir

jmayo wrote: »

Are you seriously asking that question ?
All the SAR piliots are very much aware of that rocky island with the big bloody lighthouse on top of it and they don't rely on Sky Demon, Iphones, or Google for their navigation.

The fact someone is aware of Skydemon and yet thinks a professional SAR operation hasn't anything better scares me, most especially if they are a pilot.

Being aware that an island exists and knowing where you are in relation to it right now are two very different things. I already acknowledged that it is highly unlikely that they don't have it on their navigation suite, I was just highlighting that Skydemon, which is legally valid for flight, doesn't have it. I'm not sure why that scares you.

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Being aware that an island exists and knowing where you are in relation to it right now are two very different things. I already acknowledged that it is highly unlikely that they don't have it on their navigation suite, I was just highlighting that Skydemon, which is legally valid for flight, doesn't have it. I'm not sure why that scares you.

In passing, does Skydemon give a MSA for the area, as that may provide the answer, if the MSA is significantly above the height of the island, the (possibly wrong) assumption is that you won't be operating other than in VFR below MSA.

If you are flying over the sea in bad visibility & you get a visual on the surface, on your way into land. Would you stay at height or safely descend under the cloudbase ? In other words do you follow your eyes or your instruments ? Plus a helicopter doesn't have the approach restrictions of a fixed wing. If necessary they can hover & literally look out of the door as they descend as is common on landing.

The key to this is why they were so close to Blackrock.

Discodog wrote: »

If you are flying over the sea in bad visibility & you get a visual on the surface, on your way into land. Would you stay at height or safely descend under the cloudbase ? In other words do you follow your eyes or your instruments ? Plus a helicopter doesn't have the approach restrictions of a fixed wing. If necessary they can hover & literally look out of the door as they descend as is common on landing.

The key to this is why they were so close to Blackrock.

In the context of this thread, this is speculation so please feel free to ask the general question in a new thread. Not here.

greenspurs

<snip.> pm sent

siobhan08

I heard the debris are being brought to Gormanston for the investigation Would that be to the army base or is there somewhere else they could bring them ?

Just curious as it from near there

siobhan08 wrote: »

I heard the debris are being brought to Gormanston for the investigation Would that be to the army base or is there somewhere else they could bring them ?

Just curious as it from near there

There is an Air Corps facility there, with suitable hangar space that can be used by AAIU to lay out the pieces as required

Gaoth Laidir

Irish Steve wrote: »

In passing, does Skydemon give a MSA for the area, as that may provide the answer, if the MSA is significantly above the height of the island, the (possibly wrong) assumption is that you won't be operating other than in VFR below MSA.

MSA is 2600 ft.

faoiarvok

The IRCG S92s are fitted with EGPWS (Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System) which scans below and in front of the aircraft using a radar to warn pilots that they are approaching terrain, even if the terrain is not recorded in the navigation database.

The EGPWS system uses a high resolution digital database within the navigation system of the aircraft and the current GPS position to confirm that the aircraft is not flying into danger, but unless the specification of EGPWS has changed in recent times, it is NOT radar based

My mistake, I misread the Skybrary page: http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Terrain_Avoidance_and_Warning_System_(TAWS)

Gaoth Laidir

OK, thanks for that, I think while that doesn't put it to bed, it does clarify why the smaller bits of land are not on that particular database, they don't need to be for navigation purposes.

While it remains a question of interest for the eventual report, I think it would be appropriate to ask that we now let this specific issue go until some more specific information is released by AAIU

flutered

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

That's what I'm saying. Survived the impact, freed herself but didn't survive thereafter.

should not the beacon on her uniform started working, it took quite a while for a rescue vessel to reach her

Mod Note Covered earlier on the basis of the information we have at present, the beacon has to be manually activated by the crew member, it is not automatically activated on water contact. That will be an issue for the AAIU report to look at in detail

Veloce

Up outside the CHC base this morning.

Esel

Dara Fitzpatrick's obituary in the Irish Times today states "However, before venturing out, [to provide top cover] Capt Fitzpatrick scheduled a routine refueling stop at Blackrock lighthouse."

If this is a typo, it is a very serious one!

Edit:

Two paragraph excerpt:

"The job of Capt Fitzpatrick and colleagues was to provide watchful eye assistance to Rescue 118, hovering well above the airlift operation and advising as necessary. However, before venturing out, Capt Fitzpatrick scheduled a routine refuelling stop at Blackrock lighthouse.

Apparently approaching to refuel, something happened and radio contact was lost. For reasons as yet unknown, Rescue 116 crashed into the sea with the loss of all on board."

Link to full text:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/obituary-capt-dara-fitzpatrick-1.3016037

Reati

Not speculation to cause or what happen just a technical question for that Sar heli.

Are the comms systems tied to the electrical systems in such a way that a serious electrical failure could take out comms?

This seems a unlikely design to me but I'd be interested in knowing either way.

At best it's a typo, pathetic journalism.

Esel

Steve wrote: »

At best it's a typo, pathetic journalism.

See my edited post above with two paragraph excerpt and link.

coastwatch

The article by Loran Siggins in the IT today also has a photo of Blackrock with text,
Blackrock lighthouse, where Rescue 116 had been due to land. Wreckage was later spotted about 2.5km southeast of the lighthouse.

IT article

I thinks it's just the general confusion between Blackrock and Blacksod since the incident.