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Metro/Tram Service in Cork City

DylanGLC

Decided to make a new thread since the previous one is 11 years old and hasn't been posted in in a long time.

The Green Party again are pushing for the introduction of a tram service/Luas in Cork City, according to 96FM. The proposed tram would run from Mahon and Blackrock to the city centre, and then to Ballincollig and Bishopstown. They say over 400,000 people live in the Cork metropolitan area and that the city must act like "a large city and plan accordingly". Also according to 96FM, this new push is being back by IDA Ireland, who believe that it could help with attracting investment into the city.

Here is an article from the journal.ie that was written on the subject during the week: http://www.thejournal.ie/luas-cork-city-2-3265254-Mar2017/

What do people here think of it? Is it a good idea, will the service actually be used? Is it possible or right now does it just seem like wishful thinking?

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[Deleted User]

KCAccidental wrote: »

It's not so much the track itself, it's the accompanying infrastructure like electrification equipment, land for a fully equipped depot etc.

At least with a dedicated BRT line in place is offsets some of the intial costs of Light rail until a later point when it is feasible to upgrade

With a BRT will you not need a depot as well? Electrification adds an overhead I'll accept but "when its feasible to upgrade" may never happen with the current mindset. If a BRT gets built it'll be lauded over any whinger for decades to come "Sure, you got a BRT, what more do you want".

On feasibility, the EU would be delighted to front the cash for it.
Government:"We'd like 2 billion to build a light rail system in Cork".
EU:Sure, here's the money.
Government: Actually can we get another 300million for another feasibility study to make sure its the right decision
EU: Just build it already.

KCAccidental

Deleted User wrote: »

With a BRT will you not need a depot as well? Electrification adds an overhead I'll accept but "when its feasible to upgrade" may never happen with the current mindset. If a BRT gets built it'll be lauded over any whinger for decades to come "Sure, you got a BRT, what more do you want".

On feasibility, the EU would be delighted to front the cash for it.
Government:"We'd like 2 billion to build a light rail system in Cork".
EU:Sure, here's the money.
Government: Actually can we get another 300million for another feasibility study to make sure its the right decision
EU: Just build it already.

Well a Light rail depot needs far more infrastructure itself than a BRT depot with further tracks etc.

While there is a danger of course that we will be left with buses if an upgrade never comes, it is far more difficult politically to sanction the further costs for LRT for Cork.

Of course, this is a joke and just another example of the dysfunctional setup we have governing Ireland, but for me at least having a cheaper, but quality option in place is better than waiting forever for the optimal solution (see Metro North, Dart Underground). An indictment of our country, but it is realistic.

Deer

I think we should hold out for a hyperloop

newacc2015

Deleted User wrote: »

Ballincollig is the fastest growing town in Europe at the minute. Wait too long to provide it with light rail and there will be no room to install it.

Source?

Deleted User wrote: »

If you were going to build a dedicated BRT, with a dedicated BRT road, why not just lay down some tracks?

Just slapping down tracks costs about €40m per km. A BRT is just a road with a stops

Deleted User wrote: »

Cork had 33 trams in 1922 across six lines. If it doesn't have the required density now, how did it have enough density 100 years ago? Answer: density isn't the problem.

People lived in the City 100 years ago. You even acknowledge that! You could build a Luasline to service one off housing if you wanted to. But it does not mean there is the density to make it viable. We can give Kilkenny a Luasline if we feel like, it does not mean it makes sense to do.

Deleted User wrote: »

People move out of the city for a better life because in the country they know they have no transport possibilities and can plan around them. People despise living in cities where the transport links dont connect, are slow and unreliable and they get charged for having a car in them.

Dubliners live in Dublin City. We have the some of the worst congestion in Europe and yet we still live in Dublin City. Our councils tell us to live in the City. It is not like Cork, where you can build a massive house in the middle of nowhere with no public transport .

People would live in Cork City if they could not build elsewhere. But they rather have the massive cheap house, than the smaller modest more expensive houses that Dubliners live in

snotboogie

newacc2015 wrote: »

Just slapping down tracks costs about €40m per km. A BRT is just a road with a stops

People lived in the City 100 years ago. You even acknowledge that! You could build a Luasline to service one off housing if you wanted to. But it does not mean there is the density to make it viable. We can give Kilkenny a Luasline if we feel like, it does not mean it makes sense.

People would live in Cork City if they could not build elsewhere. But they rather have the massive cheap house, than the smaller modest more expensive houses that Dubliners live in

Douglas has a bigger population than Kilkenny city. I think you are having trouble understanding how Cork is laid out and I don't blame you. You have the city, the suburbs, the commuter towns and then the one off country housing within commuting distance. There are no clear boundaries between these four distinctions; Douglas is both in the city and a suburb, Carragline is both a suburb and a commuter town, Middleton is a commuter town but has plenty of one off housing around the town. You seem to think it is the city centre and then all one off housing, which is not the case

[Deleted User]

newacc2015 wrote: »

Source?

Just slapping down tracks costs about €40m per km. A BRT is just a road with a stops

People lived in the City 100 years ago. You even acknowledge that! You could build a Luasline to service one off housing if you wanted to. But it does not mean there is the density to make it viable. We can give Kilkenny a Luasline if we feel like, it does not mean it makes sense to do.

Dubliners live in Dublin City. We have the some of the worst congestion in Europe and yet we still live in Dublin City. Our councils tell us to live in the City. It is not like Cork, where you can build a massive house in the middle of nowhere with no public transport .

People would live in Cork City if they could not build elsewhere. But they rather have the massive cheap house, than the smaller modest more expensive houses that Dubliners live in

In your previous post you sounded like you were for the luas in Cork. This post puts you firmly against it. I'm confused.

People live in Cork now as well. And thousands of them work in Ballincollig, and thousands of them work in Douglas, so a quick way of getting from either place to the city centre where there are transport hubs would be a smart move no? It might cut down on some of that congestion?

CHealy

newacc2015 wrote: »

Dubliners live in Dublin City. We have the some of the worst congestion in Europe and yet we still live in Dublin City. Our councils tell us to live in the City. It is not like Cork, where you can build a massive house in the middle of nowhere with no public transport .

People would live in Cork City if they could not build elsewhere. But they rather have the massive cheap house, than the smaller modest more expensive houses that Dubliners live in

Are you under the impression that we all live in country houses and watch the sun set over the valley hills on a fine summer evening? Cork has extremely dense areas aswell and the city sprawls like any other moderately sized city. Theres a whole world outside of Dublin aswell.

mire

Any hope of Cork getting decent fixed line public transport will fade away very quickly, once Cork County Council publicise their proposals to rezone huge swathes of the southern greenbelt for low density housing estates in the coming months. This will mop up most housing demand from the areas previously identified for densification and undermine any attempts to increase the city's density to a level anywhere close to facilitating public transport. Led by landowners/builders, this decision will barely register in the media but it will ensure that Cork's future looks suburban, low density and the city centre and the rail locations will never take off.

mire

CHealy wrote: »

Are you under the impression that we all live in country houses and watch the sun set over the valley hills on a fine summer evening? Cork has extremely dense areas aswell and the city sprawls like any other moderately sized city. Theres a whole world outside of Dublin aswell.

Cork's density is approximately one third that of dublin's. It is way way below what is needed to make high speed transit viable. Sadly. Douglas and Ballincollig are low density suburbs; neither of these have development formats that support rail/light rail. Nowhere near it I'm afraid.

CHealy

mire wrote: »

Cork's density is approximately one third that of dublin's. It is way way below what is needed to make high speed transit viable. Sadly. Douglas and Ballincollig are low density suburbs; neither of these have development formats that support rail/light rail. Nowhere near it I'm afraid.

I dont disagree with that at all, we'll never ever see a time where a billion will be spent on a light rail system in Cork, regardless of future population growth etc it would be seen as an enormous amount of money to spend on a regional city. However, I do think they should be looking at a dedicated BRT line from Mahon to Ballincollig via city center that will work the exact same as a tram apart from the tracks.

In regards to my comment on there being a world outside of Dublin, that was more in reply to that users comment that seemed to portray that he thinks we all live in two story farm houses and cycle into main street to the post office on a Wednesday morning to take care of the messages. Its that kind of attitude that I fear the powers that be have. Cork is a decent sized city given the population and history of this wee island, we all know the true urban population is above 200k rather than the 120k reported and that should demand some form of transportation budget of its own.

snotboogie

CHealy wrote: »

mire wrote: »

Cork's density is approximately one third that of dublin's. It is way way below what is needed to make high speed transit viable. Sadly. Douglas and Ballincollig are low density suburbs; neither of these have development formats that support rail/light rail. Nowhere near it I'm afraid.

I dont disagree with that at all, we'll never ever see a time where a billion will be spent on a light rail system in Cork, regardless of future population growth etc it would be seen as an enormous amount of money to spend on a regional city. However, I do think they should be looking at a dedicated BRT line from Mahon to Ballincollig via city center that will work the exact same as a tram apart from the tracks.

In regards to my comment on there being a world outside of Dublin, that was more in reply to that users comment that seemed to portray that he thinks we all live in two story farm houses and cycle into main street to the post office on a Wednesday morning to take care of the messages. Its that kind of attitude that I fear the powers that be have. Cork is a decent sized city given the population and history of this wee island, we all know the true urban population is above 200k rather than the 120k reported and that should demand some form of transportation budget of its own.

It's an attitude within the county too. Many people still see Cork as it was 50 years ago, a small city with a giant rural hinterland. The reality that many of the towns have been swallowed up into suburbs or commuter towns isn't even acknowledged by our own city and county councils.

professore

I would settle for a working reliable bus service.

Idbatterim

given the outrageous disruption luas cross city has caused, low speed due to onstreet running in the city centre, the very high cost. I hear Corks transport is crap, Id be investing in a proper relatively segregated, proper electric bus network first...

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

given the outrageous disruption luas cross city has caused, low speed due to onstreet running in the city centre, the very high cost. I hear Corks transport is crap, Id be investing in a proper relatively segregated, proper electric bus network first...

If you are going segregated you may as well go LRT.

KCAccidental

marno21 wrote: »

If you are going segregated you may as well go LRT.

not necessarily. BRT would be a more achievable aim under current funding conditions

AugustusMinimus

I think the key here is for Cork City to drive development along the proposed route in terms of both employment and higher density accommodation.

Plenty of scope to get a critical mass for BRT anyways.

DylanGLC

There is a bit more about it in here http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/604180176.pdf

newacc2015

marno21 wrote: »

If you are going segregated you may as well go LRT.

Sure why build a dual carriageway, when you might as well build a triple lane motorway? I know it sounds ridiculous, but it is similar to LRT instead of BRT.

The cost and demand need for a LRT versus BRT is completely different. A luas line is about €40m per kilometer in Dublin. It will be similar in Cork. A BRT is a lot cheaper and more cost efficient for a less dense city.

marno21

newacc2015 wrote: »

Sure why build a dual carriageway, when you might as well build a triple lane motorway? I know it sounds ridiculous, but it is similar to LRT instead of BRT.

The cost and demand need for a LRT versus BRT is completely different. A luas line is about €40m per kilometer in Dublin. It will be similar in Cork. A BRT is a lot cheaper and more cost efficient for a less dense city.

Look at the South Ring. At the time it was invisaged that the four at grade roundabouts (Bandon Rd, Sarsfield Rd, Kinsale Rd and Dunkettle) would be sufficient. We've so far spent 200m upgrading three of those and 100m on the way upgrading Dunkettle. All the same the 2 lane Douglas flyover is under serious pressure with ~80k vehicles a day using it.

Ireland at this stage seems to love building stuff under capacity (above, M50, Luas Green Line etc ). Will we continue with this or cop on? See my previous post on Galway

namloc1980

professore wrote: »

I would settle for a working reliable bus service.

While the bus service shares the same road space with cars and trucks it'll never be reliable. There is limited bus lanes and segregation of road space in Cork. This means buses are stuck in the same traffic as everyone else. A segregation of road space on key routes is needed at a minimum along with the Ballincollig to Mahon public transit corridor. Otherwise the whole thing is pointless and the bus service will never be what it needs to be.

Unfortunately there is no vision among our politicians to plan for the future. And the public aren't too interested in public infrastructurespending either. Back in the day in the 1970s and 1980s when the DART was being planned there was massive resistance to it. Politicians claiming it wasn't needed and shur why would a small city like Dublin need an electrified railway - it didn't have the necessary population and density etc. Rural politicians wondering what it did for them.The very same arguments are being made in this thread.

Cork's population density is much higher than many comparably sized cities that have LRT/BRT systems. Cork city boundary population 125,622 with an area of 37.3 sq.km. = 3,369 people per square kilometre. Aarhus, Denmark has a city density of 2,854 people per square kilometre. Kassel, Germany has 1,900. Metz, France has 2,800. And this is BEFORE you add in areas like Douglas and Ballincollig that are outside the city boundary but are basically part of the city metro.

Rhinohippo

The difficulty with trying to fit bus lanes into already established roads can clearly be seen. Take for example the Wilton Road. Not enough space for a bus lane and traffic is now chaotic, as a result.

Rhinohippo

If we were starting from scratch, it would be a very different prospect.

TheChizler

That's kind of the idea of bus lanes though, they work best in congested areas.

Rhinohippo

Perhaps but this evening, I was driving down Wilton Road, towards Dennehy's Cross. There was a bus, a considerable distance behind me, in the bus lane. At the point, in front of the church, where the two lanes converge, at the yellow box, I looked in my mirror and could see the bus was gathering speed and was not going to stop, so I had to stop or it would have ploughed into me. I'm all for buses having priority but that was completely ridiculous.

AugustusMinimus

That set up is awful. The bus lane clearly has to yield to the driving lane. I've had near misses both with buses and idiots who have gone into the bus lane before the bus lane has even ended.

Rhinohippo

Not sure if anybody is checking it. There are going to be accidents there. The bus driver was completely out of order in what he did. Would have ploughed right into me if I had not braked.

flexcon

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That set up is awful. The bus lane clearly has to yield to the driving lane. I've had near misses both with buses and idiots who have gone into the bus lane before the bus lane has even ended.

Correct. I have seen cars pull out ( about 7 cars behind me ) and race down the inside in the bus lane to skip a few cars. I have to say, I do push the limit and keep "flowing" left till we are almost touching, just to let them know that **** isn't on.

what then frustrates me is the car behind will let them in.

am I right at this junction though? I have right of way 100% in that scenario?

DylanGLC

€15.5 million road upgrade for South Docklands. Hopefully this actually happens and soon so the Docklands can actually become what they are possible to be (similar to Dublin)

https://twitter.com/cllrdescahil/status/846707543888056321

RTE article mentioning it https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0328/863240-infrastructure-plan/

TheChizler

flexcon wrote: »

am I right at this junction though? I have right of way 100% in that scenario?

100% right of way but also should technically be in the left hand lane outside of bus lane hours, so although you have to the right of way when they merge, you should have been on the left in the first place unless there's traffic.

Candlewick

marno21 wrote: »

Look at the South Ring. At the time it was invisaged that the four at grade roundabouts (Bandon Rd, Sarsfield Rd, Kinsale Rd and Dunkettle) would be sufficient. We've so far spent 200m upgrading three of those and 100m on the way upgrading Dunkettle. All the same the 2 lane Douglas flyover is under serious pressure with ~80k vehicles a day using it.

Ireland at this stage seems to love building stuff under capacity (above, M50, Luas Green Line etc ). Will we continue with this or cop on? See my previous post on Galway

Excellent point. I remember speaking to somebody way back who was involved in the building of the south link and he said that there should have be flyovers. He said, mark my words, they will be needed (and they were) but they cost a lot more when they were finally added on.