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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

sparrowcar

Contact lost just before 0100 off the west coast of Achill island on a rescue mission.
Search in progress including all available ships and Rescue 115.

Hopefully a positive outcome to this.

Please keep replies civil, and respectful of the crew and their families.

Please do not speculate as to any cause unless you have a factual basis to do so (and can back it up with information released to the public).

There will be zero tolerance for troublemakers or those that choose to ignore these guidelines.

There are other moderator messages in the thread, as a result of issues that have arisen, and we will be less forgiving going forward, due to the ongoing sensitivity of this incident

As per normal boards guidance, any comments on moderation are off topic and should be addressed directly to mods or cmods by PM. Any part of posts which are off topic in such a manner may be edited or removed, with possible sanction. Non news posts will be moved to the parallel R116 Non news and discussion thread

Should any new reports, updates or news stories come out, posts which can be boiled down to "I Told You So" or other triumphalism about previous commentary will result in significant punishment.

Any threadbans will carry over to any replacement thread should this approach 10,000 posts

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Welruc

jpfahy wrote: »

What app are you using?

jpfahy

deuceswild wrote: »

What app are you using?

just trying to show a photo

refusetolose

jpfahy wrote: »

just trying to show a photo

jpfahy

refusetolose wrote: »

Flight path posted earlier superimposed on a screenshot from google maps and scaled to match

Negative_G

For those discussing the "radar let down" procedure, it is not just a case of keep on descending until you break out into VMC conditions.

I am not familiar with S92 operations but the crew will normally nominate a "decision height" which is based on a Radio Altimeter read out.

A 'Rad Alt' gives an instantaneous height read out from the bottom of the aircraft to the terrain below, or in this instance the water surface. In simpler terms, imagine a laser beam pointing directly down from beneath the aircraft and giving a readout to the pilots in feet. This system operates completely independently of barometric pressure so the QNH setting is not a factor although it will feed into the scan and information loop.

Generally, If they are not visual by the nominated read out, they will add power and climb away. I have no idea what this height would be for their specific operation but guess that it would be in the region of several hundred feet.

Given the fact that they transitted to the area at 3-4000 feet. I would guess that this is what occurred given the prevailing warm front/warm sector conditions.

I would assume that the S92 is fitted with EGPWS which should have given the crew a warning if they were descending toward known terrain such as the island. Then again, they may have had it inhibited whilst carrying out the procedure.

A lot of assumptions, I know. But just considering plausible scenarios from the information we have at the moment.

Please god they find the other crew members. And well done to all the first responders, IRCG, RNLI, fishermen and the Defence Forces for assisting in what must be difficult conditions.

homerjay2005

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Large parts of debris, specifically the tail area, were recovered from Blackrock Island itself, in the area of the lighthouse and adjoining building.

so if this is true and im reading it as i think you are trying to say, it definately plausible that they hit the island.

Mech1

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so if this is true and im reading it as i think you are trying to say, it definately plausible that they hit the island.

landed at the wrong place thinking it was blacksod?

hit the island?, possible.

landed at the wrong place thinking it was blacksod?, no I dont believe that could happen.

remember I know little to nothing about this sort of stuff, just listening in.

Dark sun

Judging from that photo its possible they were returning to refuel and could have possibly hit black rock lighthouse maybe heavy fog or mist might have impaired view maybe confused with blacksod lighthouse .:(

homerjay2005

Mech1 wrote: »

hit the island?, possible.

landed at the wrong place thinking it was blacksod?, no I dont believe that could happen.

remember I know little to nothing about this sort of stuff, just listening in.

whats the normal turning distance though? isnt it a bit unusual to go out so far from blacksod and actually fly directly over blackrock?

ED E

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so if this is true and im reading it as i think you are trying to say, it definately plausible that they hit the island.

landed at the wrong place thinking it was blacksod?

Hit it accidentally. Remember we had a recorded speed of 160km/hour. Thats not the kind pace you use for landing I would assume.

January

Dark sun wrote: »

Judging from that photo its possible they were returning to refuel and could have possibly hit black rock lighthouse maybe heavy fog or mist might have impaired view maybe confused with blacksod lighthouse .:(

All reports say that it was a pretty clear night out there that night.

homerjay2005

ED E wrote: »

Hit it accidentally. Remember we had a recorded speed of 160km/hour. Thats not the kind pace you use for landing I would assume.

ya thats a good point. the point above about debris being found on the island is new information which points to a collision though,if its true.

Mech1

January wrote: »

All reports say that it was a pretty clear night out there that night.

was the lighthouse operational?

vicwatson

Dark sun wrote: »

Judging from that photo its possible they were returning to refuel and could have possibly hit black rock lighthouse maybe heavy fog or mist might have impaired view maybe confused with blacksod lighthouse .:(

But they had radar, or maybe not

limericklad87

This discovery of wreckage on the island must be fairly recent as we've seen the search patterns being used for the last 2 days indicating the uncertainty of where the bulk wreckage is

Steve

Mech1 wrote: »

was the lighthouse operational?

I believe so, last NTM I can find was 2005.

http://www.irishlights.ie/safety-navigation/notices-to-mariners/2005-11-blackrock-sligo-lighthouse.aspx

Welruc

Mech1 wrote: »

was the lighthouse operational?

Yeah its operational, light does a rotation roughly every 8 secs

Mech1

limericklad87 wrote: »

This discovery of wreckage on the island must be fairly recent as we've seen the search patterns being used for the last 2 days indicating the uncertainty of where the bulk wreckage is

search was primarily for survivors, any other debris is noted / collected if possible and move on.

limericklad87

Of course... a momentary case of tunnel vision.. apologies

sdanseo

Steve wrote: »

I believe so, last NTM I can find was 2005.

http://www.irishlights.ie/safety-navigation/notices-to-mariners/2005-11-blackrock-sligo-lighthouse.aspx

Different lighthouse.

elastico

Is this the lighthouse?

Easy see why they may have hit it!

Mech1

http://www.irishlights.ie/tourism/our-lighthouses/black-rock-(mayo).aspx

irishgeo

January wrote: »

All reports say that it was a pretty clear night out there that night.

Later on when the rescue started it was clear. Earlier in the night it was raining.

DOCARCH

elastico wrote: »

Is this the lighthouse?

Easy see why they may have hit it!

That's the one.

Steve

sdanseo wrote: »

Different lighthouse.

My apologies, you are correct, shouldn't trust google so much.

Correct link here:

http://www.irishlights.ie/tourism/our-lighthouses/black-rock-(mayo).aspx

cashcow

elastico wrote: »

Is this the lighthouse?

Easy see why they may have hit it!

yeah that's it,see it's red glare out my kitchen window and can't believe it's in the middle of this tragedy

Irish Steve

I am reluctant to post on this thread with technical information or comment, as my experience is with fixed wing aircraft, but some clarity is required to ensure that the many visitors who have little or no aviation knowledge are not confused, and I know before I start that I will end up changing this post many times before I am happy to let it be posted.

The procedure of overflying a point, then returning to it from offshore while descending is a well established and standard operating procedure that is used to transition from flight on instruments that is in or above cloud to flight that also is using visual reference.

What has not been specifically discussed in the thread is that because this is a search and rescue aircraft, it carries a significant instrument fit that enhances the normal fit that would be standard on a commercial helicopter, and even on a commercial helicopter, the instrument fit would be to a very high level, so the suggestions that have been made about accidentally flying into an obstacle or the water while searching for their intended landing point needs to be put into context, and discounted.

The accuracy of multiple and redundant systems on the aircraft would have meant that the crew would have known their location both horizontally and vertically to an accuracy of 5 metres or less, and if multiple (catastrophic) failures of the instruments had occurred, the standard operating procedure in such a case would have been to not continue into a possibly compromised location, but to ensure continued safe operation even with degraded systems.

If the degree of failures were so significant as to prevent continued controlled flight, then that will be a cause of massive concern to the operators, manufacturers and aviation regulators, as such a massive failure is into the statistically implausible levels of numbers.

I am talking here about instrument systems, not mechanical systems, and I have to be very clear that there are areas of the mechanical side of a helicopter that cannot be duplicated, and any failure of certain mechanical components are incompatible with continued operation of the flight. This is well known, so the safety and monitoring systems on critical components are at a very high level, and the critical life components have a service life that is calculated to be a fraction of the possible life. That said, there have been a number of high profile helicopter accidents in recent years with significant loss of life, and some of those accidents have been as a direct result of sudden catastrophic mechanical failure, which has resulted in the grounding of the type for (in some cases) lengthy periods of time, until the regulators are satisfied that the changes made are safe to be allowed into service.

I am not going to speculate on the nature of the event that resulted in the end of the flight 116 into water, and also resulted in only one member of the crew being found at this stage, other than to say that anyone that is implying that it was as a result of actions by the crew has very little understanding of the way that Search and rescue operates, and a lack of understanding of how disciplined and experienced the operating crews of SAR helicopters are, they have regular and routine experience of operating at the absolute limits of the capability of their equipment, and there is nothing to indicate that their actions at the time of the loss were anywhere even near to any limits, all the indications at present are that they were carrying out a routine task and that there were no unusual circumstances about the mission to cause any concerns.

The other thing that can be discounted is that this accident occurred due to a shortage of fuel, the range of the machine was considerably in excess of the distance flown on the mission, my understanding of the reason for the refuel was to ensure that in the event of an incident occurring with the flight they were providing top cover for, they would be able to instantly respond to that situation, and return safely to land, and as the incident was some way off shore, the top up of fuel would have ensured they were not under pressure while over water.

What I am going to say, absolutely categorically and emphatically is that the crew of 116 were the highest level of professionals that operate helicopters, with long experience of operating their equipment at the extremes, and their commitment and dedication to the saving of lives was absolute, and regularly demonstrated by the results they had achieved over long years of service, and anyone that even hints at anything else is unworthy of consideration.

The AAIU are reporting this evening that they are now receiving signals from the black box recorder, and have a location, so I would expect that there will be some updates over the next couple of days, which should start to provide some closure for the families of the remaining crew members.

The moderators will continue to monitor this thread, and if there inappropriate posts, we will remove them, as we have already done, in order to respect the memory of those who have so tragically lost their lives in circumstances that are so hard to make sense of.

I have watched 116 operate from their base beside the Boot Inn over many years, and have both seen and heard it transit over Ashbourne at all hours of the day and night, and I am still struggling to comprehend that this incident has occurred.

I can only express my highest admiration for the rest of the crews that are continuing to operate the SAR helicopters in these circumstances.

I will close by asking everyone that contributes to this thread to please respect and honour the people that have lost their lives, and refrain from posting anything that disrespects their legacy and memory.

Steve

Still, it's 86m / 300ft altitude. Hard to see why they would be below that so far from Blacksod.
Surely they had at the least a working GPS, probable GPWS & Raidio altimeter, and at least barometric altimeter and a local chart with MSA on it.

As was already posted, it would need a series of both instrument / mech / and or crew failures compounded to cause something like this.

It's not fair to speculate on any really, and we probably won't know for sure for at least a year. (remember the EICK crash a while back?, was down to a throttle imbalance and poor maintenance in the end).

Edit: Hadn't seen the mod post as I was writing this.

PukkaStukka

Fantastic post Irish Steve. Brilliantly put.

irishgeo

Apologies if I have under estimated the professionalism of the crew. The above post has cleared up alot of the confusion. I'll refrain from speculation in future posts as my knowledge of aircraft is well below people here.