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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1

Chemical Burn

SEXISM MEN HAVE EXPERIENCED

Inspired by the thread I saw in the Ladies' Lounge, about Sexism they apparently experience from day to day life, I thought I might start a thread about sexism that us gentlmen experience apart from the others in the LL.
So Gentlemen of GC, what sexism discrimination do you experience?

Please NO AH-type responses or attacking the OP or thread ...

I was told by a driving instructor (back in the day) that I would have a lesser chance of passing the test because of how I looked and because I was a man (instructor was female). This was 11 years ago.

I was in college queuing up to use a photocopyer / printer and it was faulty, and I had to page the maintenance guy. Even though I was first in the queue, he pushed me aside and told me to " let the "ladies" go ahead of me ", when the machine was back up and running again. This was 10 years ago.

MOD NOTE! ** READ THIS **
I'm going to make this completely crystal clear, for the benefit of all.

This is a thread for men to post their experiences of sexism that they believe they have experienced. Discussion in this thread is welcome, from both men and women - so long as it goes with the ethos of the thread. Addition - this thread will also encompass general sexism against men.

The following is no longer to take place in this thread:

- Discussion of which sex has it worse
- Arguing about what is, or isn't sexism in your view

This is the Gentlemen's Club forum. This forum will always have a male leaning ethos. Men do not have to defend their experiences in this thread to anyone.

We will start banning people who continue to derail this thread.

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Calhoun

If ever i needed an excuse to not watch his program, funny thing is i actually supported him because i felt he got short shifted due to Ray but **** him. Can burn on his white horse for all i care.

red ears

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

From the article Any chance they can 'phase out' male presenters on Cutting Edge instead?

A quote from Brendan in that article: “The hardest thing with any live television show is that in two seconds, you or anyone around the table, can completely destroy themselves - potentially even destroy their career. We’re in an age where people can get in trouble for saying something which other people perceive to be the wrong thing or for expressing opinions that are forbidden".

Yeah Brendan try saying you plan on phasing out women from your panel show and see what happens.

Btw look at his big gormless face in that piece, father jack comes to mind with his "how did that gobs**te get on the television".

http://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/brendan-oconnor-says-would-like-10020187

kunst nugget

Could there be something to it though. I've never watched the programme as he annoys the bejasus out of me but could it be that men are more reticent to speak their mind in case they get accused of being sexist or racist and potentially ruining a career while the women guests are not as encumbered by this?

red ears

kunst nugget wrote: »

Could there be something to it though. I've never watched the programme as he annoys the bejasus out of me but could it be that men are more reticent to speak their mind in case they get accused of being sexist or racist and potentially ruining a career while the women guests are not as encumbered by this?

You could be right but if that is the case he should be arguing for men to be more free to speak their minds instead of dispensing with them.

I have only ever watched about 10 mins of his panel show, i couldn't watch his Saturday night show either, he is awful and shouldn't even be on the TV. Surely we have better presenters than him. The intro to his Saturday night show where he tried to do a bit of comedy was shockingly bad.

red ears

How about Brendan be brave and invite a panel of men on to discuss the treatment of men in modern society, discuss issues facing men and boys and maybe discuss feminism from a male perspective. It would be very interesting and would have massive viewership if advertised beforehand. But it seems Brendan would prefer an all female panel to discuss the same old same old, women yet again discussing feminist issues yet again. As if we aren't already bombarded daily by that.

blue note

kunst nugget wrote:

Could there be something to it though. I've never watched the programme as he annoys the bejasus out of me but could it be that men are more reticent to speak their mind in case they get accused of being sexist or racist and potentially ruining a career while the women guests are not as encumbered by this?

His show last year got loads of outrage all over social media for bring every topic back to the discrimination that women face. I reckon the show is a lot more popular with guys than girls because we like to tune in and moan about ciara kelly our louise O'Neill our whoever.

I reckon the comment is directed at his target audience (us) to remind us of the outrage we can enjoy if we tune in.

ligerdub

I may be tempting fate but I don't think O'Neill has been on that show yet. I don't think I could put myself through watching her, she's such a horrible person.......and I even watch when Nora "I'm such a great person" Casey is on it.

LostinBlanch

Well could anyone forget his car crash interview with Pussy Riot? Their first interview with any media after their release. Talk about turning what was a coup into one of the worst interviews of all time, and all down to his ego not wanting to "share" the spotlight.

So yes, Father Jack had it right.

Arcade_Tryer

Interesting piece here from a sociologist at an Irish university.

The part I highlighted in bold is quite striking. Surely ending demand for sex work is essentially the same as saying ending the demand for sex. It makes no sense. And defies nature. Whether paid or unpaid, people will always crave sex. Consensual sex of course. A clampdown on illegal trafficking seems a more sensible approach. Anyway, interesting read from an expert.

The complexity of sex work

Should it be legal to sell sex? Will new Irish laws protect sex workers, or put them at risk? Can the “world’s oldest profession” really be stamped out? And, in all of this, where do male sex workers fit in?

Dr Paul Ryan has been lecturing at Maynooth University’s Department of Sociology for 10 years. He is a board member of Sex Workers Alliance Ireland. Much of his work has focused on LGBT issues, sex, and family from the 1960s and ‘70s. Now, his research has led him to an EU-funded project looking at sexuality and prostitution policy across 24 European countries.

“These are contentious issues,” he says. “Most academics do want a focus on harm reduction, but public policy in Ireland has moved towards a neo-abolitionist model, from a point where all sex work is seen as a violence against women and should be stamped out. The argument is that by ending demand, you end sex work, but it is aspirational and not backed up by evidence. Sweden has had this law since 1999 and it still has a thriving sex industry.”

It is this position, which, through a campaign called, “Turn Off the Red Light,” led Ireland to adopt a Nordic model in February 2017 that makes it a crime to purchase sex. The campaign was backed by Barnardos, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. Two of the biggest drivers of the effort are the Immigrant Council of Ireland and Ruhama, an organisation that supports women affected by prostitution and trafficking.

Ireland went one step further than its northern neighbours, however, by increasing the penalties criminalising sex work itself. Is this a good idea? Will it work? These are the issues at the fore of Ryan’s research. Working with Dr Eílis Ward from NUI Galway, Ryan looked at the regulation of sex work in Ireland. Meanwhile, researchers in 23 other countries explored other models and evaluated what did and did not work. The aim is to gather enough data to compare and contrast different models.

“I am coming from a sex-positive feminist perspective, which says that people have the right to do what they want with their bodies. There are, of course, people who work in the sex industry who are exploited and want out. Middle-class women or men carrying out this work may have access to a whole range of resources and they’re not the greatest concern. But the question that needs to be asked is: Looking at different models, what is the best way to help the most marginalised? Criminalising the sale and purchase of sex work may push people away from services like health and the Gardaí.”

Ryan says that sex workers, whether male or female, do not always fit the stereotype of chaotic and abused, and that some people will dip in and out of sex work as a way of paying the bills or of buying what they want or need. Sometimes, sex work involves no more than a webcam and an internet connection. The image of the street worker is deeply embedded, but it is not always in touch with reality.

Ryan is concerned the law could have unintended consequences. “As the system now stands, there is not a lot of ‘street work.’ Sex is mostly sold indoors. Men buying it may now be reluctant to meet women in areas that are well-lit or well-recognised, and will move to darker, more remote locations, where the risk of violence is greater.

“There is a promise to review the legislation in two years, but there has not been an evaluation of existing or past policies around sex work, and no baseline studies exist on which to evaluate any change. We know little about the demographics of those who sell sex, almost nothing about male or transgender prostitution, and very little about clients and the relationship between the law and practices on the ground.”

Ryan adds that in Northern Ireland, the (governing) Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) brought forward a proposal making it a crime to purchase sex. As a member of an advisory group on a project commissioned by the Department of Justice and undertaken at Queen University Belfast to do a study the proposal, Ryan says they found the law to be largely unenforceable. The proposal ultimately became law anyway. So, Ryan asks, “Is it about real change, or sending out a message?”

He points to the religious origins of the Immigrant Council and Ruhama and suggests their position may be ideological. “Ireland has been wedded to the Swedish model for some time but, in Sweden, there was also an acknowledgement that prostitution is caused by structural inequalities, so there were incentives for people not to do it. Here, we are looking at taking income from some of the most deprived people, without offering them alternatives. For the model to work, we need to offer more support. We are not doing that. We have chosen to ignore advice from the United Nations, the World Health Organisation and various academics. I think this legislation could cause damage.”

Much of the debate, he says, has focused on women, but there are equally many men – mostly gay, but some straight – who sell sex to other men. “In the policy context, these men don’t exist. And yet, you can find them online, often casually exchanging sex for money or goods. Are they less vulnerable? Are they equally at risk of exploitation? There is an element of paternalism here, where it is seen that men always love sex and are doing well to make money from it, whereas a woman who has multiple sexual partners, whether for pleasure or money, is going against her nature and is being exploited.”

Men selling sex to other men is highly visible in the gay community, says Ryan. “Most of the men selling sex in Ireland are Brazilian or Venezuelan, perhaps because they are more anonymous than Irish men could be. Those I interviewed don’t always see themselves as sex workers, but see sex as a way to earn money. They dip in and out and few are exploited.”

iptba

I don't recall any mention of a National Men's Strategy:

The Wheel and the New National Women's Strategy

Minister Frances Fitzgerald and the Department of Justice & Equality are committed to producing a new National Women's Strategy for the period 2017 - 2020.

A public consultation took place between November 2016 and the end of January 2017 to help inform this process. The Wheel's CEO, Deirdre Garvey, was pleased to accept an invitation in February to join a Strategy Committee to advise on the development and implementation of the new strategy.

The intention is to launch the completed strategy in early April. The draft goal for the 4-year period is: to change attitudes and practices preventing women’s and girls’ full participation in education, employment and public life, at all levels, and to improve services for women and girls, with priority given to the needs of those experiencing, or at risk of experiencing, the poorest outcomes.

At the current stage of drafting, it is proposed that it will have 6 high-level objectives:
1. Advance socioeconomic equality for women and girls
2. Advance the physical and mental health and well-being of women and girls
3. Ensure the visibility in society of women and girls, and their equal and active citizenship
4. Advance women in leadership at all levels
5. Eliminate violence against women
6. Embed gender equality in decision-making.
The timeline for the drafting of the strategy is restricted to March and the Strategy Committee has met twice in March already, with a third meeting scheduled for Tuesday, 21 March.

Considering the compacted timelines, we've sought input from members which are already prominent in this space. And upon the publication of the strategy, we will ensure that all of our members get the opportunity to feed into how it is implemented.

For further information, please visit the Department's website http://thewheel.cmail20.com/t/i-l-uihtily-chyiutdlr-h/

Zulu

iptba wrote: »

I don't recall any mention of a National Men's Strategy:

The lads up in the ODPM (Office of the Directorate for Patriarchal Matters) are taking care of that. It was in the quarterly mailshot. With the free four ball at Portmarnock Links, and the annual corporate promotion.

Didn't you get yours?

silverharp

:pac:

Pawwed Rig

Not sure if you all remember the turnouttheredlight campaign but eye opening AMA currently going on

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057719737

ligerdub

silverharp wrote: »

:pac:

That's superb! What idiots!!

If only it were something completely ridiculous like 1 in 50 or something......they'd probably still print it!

ligerdub

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not sure if you all remember the turnouttheredlight campaign but eye opening AMA currently going on

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057719737

Ah man, what a thread! I'm not sure which I like more, the quasi-joke questions, the "a friend of mine" questions or whatever.

I did especially like this post though, he clearly gave it a lot of thought:

"In what segments of the market are you finding the most growth?

For example, a lot of analysts might point to an appetite out there for BBW's. How are you finding this commentary in terms of how it translates to the front line? Would you agree?"

Analysts??!

red ears

iptba wrote: »

I don't recall any mention of a National Men's Strategy:
Quote:
The Wheel and the New National Women's Strategy

Minister Frances Fitzgerald and the Department of Justice & Equality are committed to producing a new National Women's Strategy for the period 2017 - 2020.

A public consultation took place between November 2016 and the end of January 2017 to help inform this process. The Wheel's CEO, Deirdre Garvey, was pleased to accept an invitation in February to join a Strategy Committee to advise on the development and implementation of the new strategy.

The intention is to launch the completed strategy in early April. The draft goal for the 4-year period is: to change attitudes and practices preventing women’s and girls’ full participation in education, employment and public life, at all levels, and to improve services for women and girls, with priority given to the needs of those experiencing, or at risk of experiencing, the poorest outcomes.

At the current stage of drafting, it is proposed that it will have 6 high-level objectives:
1. Advance socioeconomic equality for women and girls
2. Advance the physical and mental health and well-being of women and girls
3. Ensure the visibility in society of women and girls, and their equal and active citizenship
4. Advance women in leadership at all levels
5. Eliminate violence against women
6. Embed gender equality in decision-making.
The timeline for the drafting of the strategy is restricted to March and the Strategy Committee has met twice in March already, with a third meeting scheduled for Tuesday, 21 March.

Considering the compacted timelines, we've sought input from members which are already prominent in this space. And upon the publication of the strategy, we will ensure that all of our members get the opportunity to feed into how it is implemented.

For further information, please visit the Department's website http://thewheel.cmail20.com/t/i-l-uihtily-chyiutdlr-h/

More state money for the problems of the favoured gender. Its almost as if boys or men don't exist and have no problems worth highlighting.

silverharp

BLAIRE WHITE 💋‏ @MsBlaireWhite 5h5 hours ago
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That's an interesting way to spell "raped a middle school kid".

Outlaw Pete

Funny how, while both pretty much about the same thing, one's amazing the other.. creepy.

py2006

Reminds me of the strip shows. Its a fun night out for the girls and advertised everywhere while its a creepy, sleazy, misogynistic thing bad men go to see.

Arcade_Tryer

py2006 wrote: »

Reminds me of the strip shows. Its a fun night out for the girls and advertised everywhere while its a creepy, sleazy, misogynistic thing bad mean go to see.

It's merely boring and unimaginative on both fronts.

Prostitution is more respectable for the punter. Going to a strip club is being screwed with your pants still on.

[Deleted User]

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It's merely boring and unimaginative on both fronts.

Prostitution is more respectable for the punter. Going to a strip club is being screwed with your pants still on.

There's a difference between a strip club and a lapdancng club. Especially outside of Ireland/UK.

TBH I'd suggested its less to do with feminism and more to do with the lingering influence of the church, and community opinions.

Still, there is a rather large difference in how anything sexual for men is shown.. but the flip side for women. Being Gay is bad/dirty, but being a lesbian is a natural thing to try or be.

One eyed Jack

This is like an article that gets even more depressing as you read down, so I'll just quote snippets -

Three Irish universities win Athena SWAN awards for gender equality progress

"Three Irish universities have been honoured by the Athena SWAN Charter for their work in the battle against gender inequality: Dublin City University (DCU), University College Dublin (UCD) and University of Limerick (UL).
Athena SWAN (Scientific Womens Academic Network) is a charter established by the British Equality Challenge Unit (ECU) and implemented by the UK Resource Centre. It recognises and celebrates good practice towards the advancement of gender equality and specifically representation, progression and success for all. In particular, the charter was set up to encourage the advancement of careers for women in STEM, and higher education and research."

All Irish third-level institutions will be required to gain Athena SWAN awards

"In future, Science Foundation Ireland, the Irish Research Council and the Health Research Board will require higher education institutions (HEIs) to have Athena SWAN gender equality accreditation in order to be eligible for research funding. Irish HEIs will be required to secure Athena SWAN bronze awards by the end of 2019 to ensure they are eligible to compete for research funding allocated by any of the three agencies. To get a sense of the commitment it takes to achieve an Athena SWAN award, DCU has prepared a three-year action plan to reform the promotion process to address the lack of women in senior academic positions, prioritises female leadership initiatives and addresses issues in relation to maternity leave. Examples of key initiatives at DCU included Project 50:50 (to name at least 50pc of new DCU buildings after female research pioneers), family-friendly meeting times, unconscious bias training and a pledge by DCUs president not to serve on a panel of two people or more unless there is at least one woman on the panel, not including the chair."

So I figured, "Who are this SWAN crowd I've never heard of?"

ECUs Athena SWAN Charter was established in 2005 to encourage and recognise commitment to advancing the careers of women in science, technology, engineering, maths and medicine (STEMM) employment in higher education and research.

In May 2015 the charter was expanded to recognise work undertaken in arts, humanities, social sciences, business and law (AHSSBL), and in professional and support roles, and for trans staff and students. The charter now recognises work undertaken to address gender equality more broadly, and not just barriers to progression that affect women.

ECUs Athena SWAN Charter covers women (and men where appropriate) in:
academic roles in STEMM and AHSSBL

professional and support staff

trans staff and students

In relation to their:
representation

progression of students into academia

journey through career milestones

working environment for all staff

Source: Athena SWAN Charter

At least I could understand NUIG naming a building in honour of one of Irelands pioneering engineers, but the sort of nonsense above?

It all looks a bit "just because..." and I don't know many of my friends who are architects, engineers, software developers, project managers, company directors, etc, who would appreciate being seen as having been "rewarded" with the positions they hold, not because of their hard work they put in to get where they are, but solely on the basis of their gender, because "quotas" had to be met. It's an insult to many of these professions that a persons gender could ever be considered to matter more than the wealth of talent, skills and knowledge they possess.

.

[Deleted User]

"It recognises and celebrates good practice towards the advancement of gender equality and specifically representation, progression and success for all. In particular, the charter was set up to encourage the advancement of careers for women in STEM, and higher education and research."

Gender equality needs a better definition if that's part of their mission statement. Horrifying.

Took a look at the pages of their charter members... Interesting that there's not a balance in numbers. The vast majority of its charter members are female names.

silverharp

did I misinterpret what is being stated and that science grants are being opened up to non science areas?

Eric Cartman

academia is a cancer now.

mzungu

One eyed Jack wrote: »

All Irish third-level institutions will be required to gain Athena SWAN awards

"In future, Science Foundation Ireland, the Irish Research Council and the Health Research Board will require higher education institutions (HEIs) to have Athena SWAN gender equality accreditation in order to be eligible for research funding. Irish HEIs will be required to secure Athena SWAN bronze awards by the end of 2019 to ensure they are eligible to compete for research funding allocated by any of the three agencies. To get a sense of the commitment it takes to achieve an Athena SWAN award, DCU has prepared a three-year action plan to reform the promotion process to address the lack of women in senior academic positions, prioritises female leadership initiatives and addresses issues in relation to maternity leave.

This is a good move IMO, especially as regards maternity leave, as this can have a devastating impact on career earnings. It is good to see some kind of proactive measures being taken there

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Examples of key initiatives at DCU included Project 50:50 (to name at least 50pc of new DCU buildings after female research pioneers), family-friendly meeting times, unconscious bias training and a pledge by DCUs president not to serve on a panel of two people or more unless there is at least one woman on the panel, not including the chair."

I would have no problem with the above. Renaming the buildings may come across as tokenism, but it won't do much harm regardless. Family friendly meeting times is great. I have no issue with the panel idea. Unconscious bias training seems to be imported direct from the USA and has been used by Google. Hmmm, sounds like a box ticking exercise and 2 hours away from your desk kind of thing. In a few years time some new jazzy training thing will come along and replace it. I think it is an excuse to give "diversity trainers" a nice little paypacket and little else.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So I figured, "Who are this SWAN crowd I've never heard of?"

Source: Athena SWAN Charter

At least I could understand NUIG naming a building in honour of one of Irelands pioneering engineers, but the sort of nonsense above?

It all looks a bit "just because..." and I don't know many of my friends who are architects, engineers, software developers, project managers, company directors, etc, who would appreciate being seen as having been "rewarded" with the positions they hold, not because of their hard work they put in to get where they are, but solely on the basis of their gender, because "quotas" had to be met. It's an insult to many of these professions that a persons gender could ever be considered to matter more than the wealth of talent, skills and knowledge they possess.

To a point, I agree. However, a lot of the stuff in there like maternity leave, family friendly hours and a more fairer representation on panels is quite good and is needed in a hell of a lot more workplaces. That part I can get behind.

However, for obvious reasons I do not agree with the quotas. In the long run there is a good chance that everybody will lose out eventually. It also goes completely against the "work hard and succeed" ethos that drives most people. I suppose the overarching message here is that identity is now far more more important than anything else, even hard work. How exactly anybody thinks this equates to equality is beyond me.

ligerdub

I abhor quotas in almost every instance.....and this is no exception.

"We need more women in stem", do we? Why? The only thing that's certain is that we need no blockages for them should they wish to do so. Aside from that let free choice reign.

Merit for naming "at least 50%" of buildings after women is ridiculous. It implies that as the starting point. Will they demand amendments if it ends up with 75% of them being named after women? Pfffft!

Also, not being able to have a meeting unless there is a woman present is a quota, and it's also completely stupid.

[Deleted User]

What are "family-friendly" times? Term-time only between 10 and 2?

Calhoun

I wonder if they are putting in paid paternity leave to offer balance for male professors.

I think its great though, the dumb women of Ireland who cannot stand on their own two feet need the extra help. Nothing like a bit of tokenism to get across equality :pac::pac::pac:

JRant

Needs to be renamed from gender equality to equality of outcome. In Irish universities women outnumber men 2:1 already. Where's the provision to get more men into university, full stop?

Also unconscious bias training is awfully bloody insidious. It implies that everyone attending is inherently racist and needs to be "fixed". Not to mention that it is complete bunkum with no basis in science.