Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Grayson wrote: »

I didn't go because I had an interview today (Fingers crossed). I rescheduled from last week because I've been sick for a few weeks.

People have actual reasons for not being able to go to something.

That's fair enough Grayson. I was the only member of my team in the Irish office, other member is on paternity leave (!) and it's our busiest time.

However I knew for quite a while that taking today off wasn't gonna happen. I most certainly didn't brag on social media all week about the Strike For Repeal- I glanced at LON's Facebook and all week she was posting about how "I'm going on strike".

These were *appointments* that she could reschedule- she doesn't have a traditional 9-5 like some of us- and by availing of services of other women today, you could argue she was actually strike-breaking.

I was raised by a very politically conscious woman, and taught that if you have principles, you stick with them, regardless of minor inconvenience.

Recently, due to encounters with several people who talk a good "woke" game, I think I've realised that people who are actually doing things don't brag about their credentials on social media.

fiveleavesleft

Haha this is brilliant. Old Lou hasn't got a clue.

One of the functions of a strike is to discipline/shame your own side into showing solidarity with the cause. Not only was she a no show on the march, she actually spent the day with 3 scabs!

She was inciting insurrection on Monday, crossing picket lines on Wednesday! Not much substance to luvvie lou.

RabbleRouser2k

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

Haha this is brilliant. Old Lou hasn't got a clue.

One of the functions of a strike is to discipline/shame your own side into showing solidarity with the cause. Not only was she a no show on the march, she actually spent the day with 3 scabs!

She was inciting insurrection on Monday, crossing picket lines on Wednesday! Not much substance to luvvie lou.

They were hardly scabs-they had work to do, unlike some rather privileged folks who rely on 'social media' to keep their presence known.

Grayson wrote: »

I didn't go because I had an interview today (Fingers crossed). I rescheduled from last week because I've been sick for a few weeks.

People have actual reasons for not being able to go to something.

Yes they do, like holding a job down. It's supposed to be important enough to urge people to take a day's 'strike' from work, so that's hypocritical. One expectation of others and a different, lower one for themselves.

Otherwise known as a cop out.

mzungu

It's the fault of the patriarchy...or straight white men.

mzungu wrote: »

It's the fault of the patriarchy...or straight white men.

Both. Always both.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

There's been some real forehead slappers from the march in the US...

https://twitter.com/womensmarch/status/839545093510086657

https://twitter.com/womensmarch/status/839526756856000512

So Men can have babies now? OR is the Stork and 'found under a head of cabbage' story actually true?

Maybe their brains are overheating under the vagina hats.

johnnyskeleton

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

That's exactly it! They actually don't realise it but it is people like her that are hurting the movement! They're only interested in debating against their own convenient strawman argument of the Pro Life side : 'you just want to oppress women and not allow women have control over their own bodies'!!

I reckon that attitude is prevalent in only a small fraction of the Pro Life side myself. The PRO LIFE's whole argument is that the embryo should be considered a human life so that and that alone is what the Pro Choice side should be focused on debunking if they want to be able to swing the 'dont no's' if ever the referendum comes around. If people like Louise O' Neill are the cheerleaders of the Pro Choice, there is a very good chance they won't be able to swing enough of the 'don't knows' to win the referendum due to their persistent avoidance of tackling the core and crucial argument of the Pro Lifers with any sort of philosophical rigour and their smug moralizing and shaming of anyone who doesn't agree with them!

In addition to putting off the undecided voters, in reality Im not sure the majority of the Irish people would vote for a simple repeal. They would more comfortably vote for a "more abortions than present, but not abortion on demand" amenent. Its a tough choice to make - do they go for the full repeal prize and risk losing a referendum (without another one for maybe another decade) or do they take what might pass now on the basis that it in a further decade maybe people will support full legalisation?

So the hardline "anything less than total repeal is unacceptable" could end up setting an agenda for an unwinnable referendum. Maybe that is right and what she wants, but I hope shes thought it through.

Grayson

ivytwine wrote: »

That's fair enough Grayson. I was the only member of my team in the Irish office, other member is on paternity leave (!) and it's our busiest time.

However I knew for quite a while that taking today off wasn't gonna happen. I most certainly didn't brag on social media all week about the Strike For Repeal- I glanced at LON's Facebook and all week she was posting about how "I'm going on strike".

These were *appointments* that she could reschedule- she doesn't have a traditional 9-5 like some of us- and by availing of services of other women today, you could argue she was actually strike-breaking.

I was raised by a very politically conscious woman, and taught that if you have principles, you stick with them, regardless of minor inconvenience.

Recently, due to encounters with several people who talk a good "woke" game, I think I've realised that people who are actually doing things don't brag about their credentials on social media.

About the bragging on social media, I kinda agree/disagree with you. The whole point of protesting is to create awareness so it's weird to protest and not talk about it. I do get what you mean though. You see it on both sides of the political spectrum. People who post up stupid political memes and sh1te like that are incredibly annoying.

And on the subject of a doctors appointment, she could be sick. It might be with a consultant and she's had to wait for the appointment. Maybe it's actually an outpatients appointment. I've had two GP visits in the last three weeks and x-rays for this chest infection.
People here are saying that she hasn't got an excuse rather than thinking that if she's missing the march she must have a really good excuse.

RabbleRouser2k

Widdershins wrote: »

Maybe their brains are overheating under the vagina hats.

It must be infuriating to try and go to do your job, then see some daft folks in vagina hats blocking you.
I imagine many folks on the phone to work saying 'yeah, I know I'm an hour late-but there's some mad wan in a vagina hat stopping me from getting there'.

Grayson wrote: »

About the bragging on social media, I kinda agree/disagree with you. The whole point of protesting is to create awareness so it's weird to protest and not talk about it. I do get what you mean though. You see it on both sides of the political spectrum. People who post up stupid political memes and sh1te like that are incredibly annoying.

And on the subject of a doctors appointment, she could be sick. It might be with a consultant and she's had to wait for the appointment. Maybe it's actually an outpatients appointment. I've had two GP visits in the last three weeks and x-rays for this chest infection.
People here are saying that she hasn't got an excuse rather than thinking that if she's missing the march she must have a really good excuse.

It's LoN, if she has a head cold, she tells her users about it (not joking, check her feed). Ditto her every move or thought.
So I sincerely doubt she is sick. She's said she was gonna 'laze at home' so no, no I don't buy into a chest infection at all. (Might be something to do with getting the contraceptive pill, maybe). She also posted about getting free stuff in the post. Wonder if the postman/ post woman (have a post woman round here) decided to take the day off? No irony there?

Grayson wrote: »

About the bragging on social media, I kinda agree/disagree with you. The whole point of protesting is to create awareness so it's weird to protest and not talk about it. I do get what you mean though. You see it on both sides of the political spectrum. People who post up stupid political memes and sh1te like that are incredibly annoying.

And on the subject of a doctors appointment, she could be sick. It might be with a consultant and she's had to wait for the appointment. Maybe it's actually an outpatients appointment. I've had two GP visits in the last three weeks and x-rays for this chest infection.
People here are saying that she hasn't got an excuse rather than thinking that if she's missing the march she must have a really good excuse.

It would cross your mind that maybe there's a really good reason. It doesn't look likely and others have pointed out why. I'm waiting for an appointment with a consultant. My doctor sent the referral two weeks ago and its been on my mind since. Someone arranged an appointment with me yesterday,for two weeks time, and I said ''I will definitely attend UNLESS my consultant's appointment arrives and it's for that day because I can't reschedule that'' even though the chances of both appointments coinciding aren't that high, I was afraid I'd have to cancel the appointment made yesterday, which was also important to me, and didn't want them to be offended/let down.

Also, they usually give at least a week's notice and more often two weeks notice for consultant's appointments. I'm watching the post for it to arrive, wouldn't an upcoming hospital appointment be looming on anyone's mind, enough that you wouldn't go making confident announcements about protesting?

That chest infection sounds bad, hope it's not pneumonia or something. Get well soon!

retro:electro

If she had genuine appointments then why make out all week that she was going? If it was a consultants appointment she would have had that letter for weeks/months. She also said she had a work meeting about her book, again another thing that wasn't just sprung on her that morning.
So why pretend she was going? "I'm preparing for the march by not washing my hair", "meet me at O Connell's Bridge at 2pm", etc.. She riled people up to take the day off work to get them to attend and then was a no show herself. In other words, she got her followers to do her dirty work for her.

The_Kew_Tour

anna080 wrote: »

If she had genuine appointments then why make out all week that she was going? If it was a consultants appointment she would have had that letter for weeks/months. She also said she had a work meeting about her book, again another thing that wasn't just sprung on her that morning.
So why pretend she was going? "I'm preparing for the march by not washing my hair", "meet me at O Connell's Bridge at 2pm", etc.. She riled people up to take the day off work to get them to attend and then was a no show herself. In other words, she got her followers to do her dirty work for her.

Anyone thinks it was appoitment out of the blue would believe anything.

She been shown to be a liar here.

You might get an appointment if there was a cancellation but it would be extremely unusual to be offered one for that very day. Two weeks into the future is about average for appointments. This comes across as someone with a weak sense of integrity and personal responsibility. However, I don't follow LON so I'm not clear on what ACTUALLY happened, I'm going by what I read here.

Dravokivich

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

It's LoN, if she has a head cold, she tells her users about it (not joking, check her feed). Ditto her every move or thought.
So I sincerely doubt she is sick. She's said she was gonna 'laze at home' so no, no I don't buy into a chest infection at all. (Might be something to do with getting the contraceptive pill, maybe). She also posted about getting free stuff in the post. Wonder if the postman/ post woman (have a post woman round here) decided to take the day off? No irony there?

The laze at home comment was about the day before as a means of getting herself set up for yesterday.

Whatever about her being a no show, does it really matter why she didn't? She's just trying to promote herself as some sort of product, but it's all really hollow. No point getting caught up in it.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I remember during the swimming coach child molester trial a few years back how the judge, literally, told one victim to 'keep swimming, it's a good hobby, good form of exercise' despite the victim saying she had been unable to return to the sport on account of the trauma she suffered with abuse.
A bit of cop on was needed there-some empathy at least. But agreed, training is needed-even someone going on trial for getting a beating and bones broken would be traumatised in court.

Those kind of attitudes really weren't uncommon in the older generation, and many judges still seem to harbour them. I mean going to court is stressful enough when you are there with financial matters etc (so I've heard!). Can imagine how much worse it is when you're a victim of violent crime.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Also about the maturing of the female, the 'hood' for example has many connotations, menstruation, sexuality, the rush of lust that comes with puberty etc, as does the wolf. The wolf is seen as sexuality, sort of the 'don't let him consume you' is seen as 'don't let your sexual desires overtake you' etc. It's less of a rape analogy, from my reading, more of a lust desire thing.

You've been reading Angela Carter! It seems to be a definite stranger danger thing in my view.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

https://twitter.com/StefPreissner/status/839422336633827328

That above quote said it all, really. She didn't strike, she went to work. She celebrated women's day, obviously, but not in a traditional sense-as in a few quotes on twitter, and an inspiring pic of her and her nana. It's really lovely, it's sort of why I admire her.

Yep, she's a class act! As for how she handled George- perfection.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Michael Woods did a deal years ago, when education minister, with the Catholic Orders, with regards to the compensation based on sexual abuse and physical abuse of children within their care.

CAB couldn't do anything if they wanted to. Also, even if the order Woods put in place didn't exist, the Church could divert assets back to Rome, thus out of their juridiction.
They've done it before. (I'm totally spiritual, I really am, but it's so hearbreaking to see how those within the church, who wanted to do good, are tarnished by the horrors others did).
I remember my grandmother helped out an unwed mother when her and her husband were married. Gave her a room to stay, and helped out with the child when it was born. They, the child and mom, went to England after a few years-work related. USed to get letters for years, until her passing (the child still wrote tho).

Fair play to your granny. I've no time for the church at all frankly, and while I would excuse younger people for not knowing about the Michael Woods deal, older people who take an interest in these affairs should know. As for Micheal Martin pontificating while his govt presided over that- absolutely sickening.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

With the repealers-it's very difficult to get over the bridge of 'we don't want to allow women to kill babies' without resorting to the 'it's just a clump of cells' argument. Both come across as cold, and both come with stigmas and issues.

Some have been really blinkered and idiotic-there was one who took a picture of herself, in a repeal shirt, holding her niece-who's still a baby. IT sent out ALL the wrong messages, and as soon as I saw it, I was like 'what are you thinking?' but then again, she also took crying selfies. So I don't think she's as intelligent as she claims to be.

I shall gloss over that particular person completely, but let's just say when I saw a friend, a really gentle person, take against her and her recent antics, I knew it was bad.

The middle ground in my view is that to keep pointing out that we do have abortion in Ireland already, it just takes place in the UK. There are loads of pro-choice arguments to be made without resorting to that one.

Grayson wrote: »

About the bragging on social media, I kinda agree/disagree with you. The whole point of protesting is to create awareness so it's weird to protest and not talk about it. I do get what you mean though. You see it on both sides of the political spectrum. People who post up stupid political memes and sh1te like that are incredibly annoying.

And on the subject of a doctors appointment, she could be sick. It might be with a consultant and she's had to wait for the appointment. Maybe it's actually an outpatients appointment. I've had two GP visits in the last three weeks and x-rays for this chest infection.
People here are saying that she hasn't got an excuse rather than thinking that if she's missing the march she must have a really good excuse.

Yeesh that sounds like a nasty infection, get well soon.

I see your point and while social media is great for seeing what's going on across the world, I have found the loudest voices- as you say- the most irritating and the least likely to actually take any action. Even if you want to go to the other side of things, there are tons of pro-lifers shouting the odds on social media, but like, five, turned out at NUIG yesterday to counter-protest. I already suspected LON of being one of those "all talk, no action" people, but yesterday confirms it.

Consultant appointments don't just happen. And consultants don't drop things at a day's notice. I've known people with longstanding medical conditions who get cancellations, but even at that, never with a day's notice. If she had said this all along, like "oh no, I really want to be there but I have a appointment that I can't miss!" I don't think even the most vehement of her critics here would object. It was this thing of "oh I'm DEFINITELY going! Can't wait! Oh actually..." that has riled people.

Maybe I am just being nasty, but to me it seems like she couldn't be bothered moving appointments around, couldn't be bothered to get into Cork- there was a protest there too! and when you consider some of the quite literally incendiary nature of her tweets, it just paints her as a hypocrite. People did make sacrifices to protest yesterday- people with far more demands on their time.

Compare and contrast to Vera Twomey. That's the lengths some will go for what they believe in.

RabbleRouser2k

ivytwine wrote: »

Those kind of attitudes really weren't uncommon in the older generation, and many judges still seem to harbour them. I mean going to court is stressful enough when you are there with financial matters etc (so I've heard!). Can imagine how much worse it is when you're a victim of violent crime.

Plus it's all the more disturbing when I remember that there was a judge in power, at the time, who was later arrested for posession of child pornograpy-Judge Curtin. His case collapsed due to a warrant used being a day out of date-and so any evidence obtained was thrown out.

I would imagine that those attitudes are still there, tbh-they just evolved and changed slightly.

You've been reading Angela Carter! It seems to be a definite stranger danger thing in my view.

And a bit of Laura Mulvey too-I'm a sucker for reading anything about meaning and story origins. Ditto movies and so on.

Yep, she's a class act! As for how she handled George- perfection.

Probably one of the finest moments on Irish TV ever-if you'd had LoN there, or Alison whatever her name is (not the comic, some reporter) they would have lost their cool, called him all sorts of names, and it would just be awful. She crossed the divide, and made a hilarious memorable moment on TV. Loved it myself. Also, she's fluent in Irish...she's probably one of the most intelligent Irish women out there at the moment, and she doesn't brag about it. (I do savage some IRish celebs a lot, but I sing the praises of the smart ones-I give credo where credo is due. And she gets credo in my eyes...dear God I sound like one of those teenage boys who's obsessed over 'insert celebrity name here').

Fair play to your granny. I've no time for the church at all frankly, and while I would excuse younger people for not knowing about the Michael Woods deal, older people who take an interest in these affairs should know. As for Micheal Martin pontificating while his govt presided over that- absolutely sickening.

My grandfather was involved too

. Yeah, they were two individuals who were total-non conformists. Like, they went to mass, worked hard, but were very caring and loving individuals. Genuinely, I doubt they had a bad word to say about too many. At a time when many would shun folks from their door, my grandparents would invite em in-the unwed moms, Traveller family's (feed em and give em their dinner) and they also took over looking after a niece when her dad was unable to-he had a few children, but essentially had one too many-so my grandparents looked after their eldest.
They were great people tbh. Open minded, willing to learn, always evolving. It's why I try to look at all angles of something, I can be a pessimist when people are seeing the positives, and an optimist when others are pessimistic.

I shall gloss over that particular person completely, but let's just say when I saw a friend, a really gentle person, take against her and her recent antics, I knew it was bad.

It was shocking, and infuriating-it sent the wrong message to everyone, and what it sent to young girls and women-it's so dangerous, and so abhorrent, that I genuinely am more horrified with each passing day thinking about it.

The middle ground in my view is that to keep pointing out that we do have abortion in Ireland already, it just takes place in the UK. There are loads of pro-choice arguments to be made without resorting to that one.

Exactly-it's not like one is stuck on a planet where they are alone and pregnant-there are options.

One of the worst things to happen to the Savita Hallapenavar case-outside of the loss of her life, obviously- was how the pro-choice people twisted and mangled it to their needs-including LoN. Reporters jumped on claims without evidence to back it up-some leaping on reporting information that days later was found to be false. They didn't even allow the family to grieve-they instead wanted a narrative.
So claims became insulting and incendiary, pushing an agenda.
You can usually find Ivana Bacik hanging around those as well-she tried to force abortion into the IRish constitution using the cases of three women-no referendum or vote required by her, no-just shove it in there.

Outlaw Pete

ivytwine wrote: »

Maybe I am just being nasty....

Ah don't worry about it..

Sure haven't you heard, being a 'Nasty Woman' is all the rage.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/839808692409237504

Grayson

Guys, seriously, you need to rethink your lives. This is now nearly 250 pages long and you're posting about her doctors appointments (or lack of them). Step back from the computers for a while.

Grayson wrote: »

Guys, seriously, you need to rethink your lives. This is now nearly 250 pages long and you're posting about her doctors appointments (or lack of them). Step back from the computers for a while.

Sure isn't this the point of boards. You could say that about any topic here!

She bares herself regularly on social media. No one would know anything about her appointments if she didn't share them.

I think the version of feminism she espouses is very worthy of discussion. I have, personally, tried to keep it as far as I can to that. This brand of feminism is lazy, unthinking, glorying in victimhood, impractical, consumerist and middle class focussed, totally regurgitated from the United States, and as a woman, a survivor of sexual violence and a person who grew up in Irish poverty, I think it's important to point out that not all feminists buy into this brand wholesale.

To reiterate also- you can't call yourself an activist if you're unwilling to take any action that inconveniences you slightly. There is a woman willing to walk 200 km until she has to be put in a wheelchair for her cause. And there's another who can't call her doctor and change an appointment for hers. Who is more committed? Who deserves greater attention in the media? (Yes- the causes are not the same, before that's pointed out).

Grayson wrote: »

Guys, seriously, you need to rethink your lives. This is now nearly 250 pages long and you're posting about her doctors appointments (or lack of them). Step back from the computers for a while.

The Grayson, has spoken.

Stop. With your condescending self appointed attitude of grander.

How about you. Rethink your life and step away from the computer?

Apparently people believe, these are spirits around her???

Her response "surrounded by spirits. We are doing Gods work"

It's a heavily edited picture and because some crazy people think these sparkles just appeared from nowhere, she lets them think that.

This lady is clearly nuts.

Wibbs

Sweetemotion wrote: »

The Grayson, has spoken.

Stop. With your condescending self appointed attitude of grander.

Well I can see that bit, but TBH the whole docs appointment bit and nitpicking over it kinda escapes me. Yeah I get the deal considering the social media support stuff not being followed through, but C'mon. Bigger fish to fry IMH.

Sweetemotion wrote:

Her response "surrounded by spirits. We are doing Gods work"

One hopes that was tongue in cheek and/or an attempt at irony(the latter a first for "feminist" blogistas) and TBH I suspect it was the former. The people who reckoned it was spirits? How many rubber rooms do we have on standby?

In other news: Thank the gods I don't have Twatter. I'm mad enough without being exposed to more mad.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well I can see that bit, but TBH the whole docs appointment bit and nitpicking over it kinda escapes me. Yeah I get the deal considering the social media support stuff not being followed through, but C'mon. Bigger fish to fry IMH.

One hopes that was tongue in cheek and/or an attempt at irony(the latter a first for "feminist" blogistas) and TBH I suspect it was the former. The people who reckoned it was spirits? How many rubber rooms do we have on standby?

In other news: Thank the gods I don't have Twatter. I'm mad enough without being exposed to more mad.

Deleted mine, great decision.

I do think you're right, there are bigger fish to fry. I wonder partly if there's an element of attention seeking going on with the non-appearance. I guess if it shows anything, it shows that you can be fawned over despite not giving a cause any practical help or action, as long as you talk a good game. That does frustrate me.

Also, at the risk of sounding petulant, Grayson, you were the one bringing up consultants etc in an effort to defend Louise.

As for the spirits...

The Rape of Lucretia

Sweetemotion wrote: »

She's quite a doll in some photos.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well I can see that bit, but TBH the whole docs appointment bit and nitpicking over it kinda escapes me. Yeah I get the deal considering the social media support stuff not being followed through, but C'mon. Bigger fish to fry IMH.

One hopes that was tongue in cheek and/or an attempt at irony(the latter a first for "feminist" blogistas) and TBH I suspect it was the former. The people who reckoned it was spirits? How many rubber rooms do we have on standby?

In other news: Thank the gods I don't have Twatter. I'm mad enough without being exposed to more mad.

Fair enough Wibbs, sorry for the cheap shot Grayson.

FishOnABike

There are some spirits you can believe in.