Dunmoreroader wrote: » Yeah I have this vision of Waterford in the year 2100 having failed repeatedly to expand northwards, population 150,000 with suburbs and commuter routes filling the land out to Tramore Kilmeaden and Woodstown. But they're still farming above in Kilculliheen Ballyrobin and Newrath! From listening to some of the vox-pops for a lot of people it's a fear of their rural way of life being swamped by urbanisation. I get it but I'm sure some country people in places like Ballygunner and Butlerstown were fearful about the city spreading out to engulf their parishes when previous boundary extensions occurred. But we didn't hear the hysteria and lies which the current situation has given rise to.
fuzzy dunlop wrote: » I think the likelihood is that the population over there will be 20000 or more in the next twenty years or so. The most recent changes to the LAP that Kilkenny made for the area has removed the name Waterford from its header. They now call it Ferrybank Belview LAP in a pretense that it is not holistically part of Waterford. They want to ignore the 800lb gorilla and pretend it is a physically seperate town in itself like Thomastown but this will backfire badly on them. Already it is the second largest town in the county. In twenty years you might have a situation where the "Ferrybank-Belview" urban area could be approaching a population nearing what Kilkenny is now. Think about that for a minute. The recorded population for Kilkenny City at the moment is not the urban population. It includes some large rural districts comparable let's say to the rural areas in the "metropolitan" district of Waterford between Waterford Tramore and Dunnmore East. It is not unthinkable that it could eclipse the population of Kilkenny City or come within a shout. There is a precedent for this happening. Tramore and Dungarvan. The largest town in Waterford is Tramore and not Dungarvan any more. Tramore and the Dunmore Road have been the main areas of growth in Waterford. Both areas expanded massively between 1986 and 2006. There must be a population increase of 20000 approx between both areas. I had an off the cuff conversation with a City Council workers who told me that once the expectation was the future development would orient from the city toward Tramore. What happened was it went towards Dunmore instead. The overspill from Waterford went to Tramore . Whatever happens the cat is out of the bag for Kilkenny (no pun intended). There is a political problem over there on the horizon. And the only cure for it is a boundary extension.
Squidvicious wrote: » You're all saying how obvious it is that the extension is a no-brainer and should have been done years ago. Repeating something doesn't make it true.
zulutango wrote: » Amalgamating Kilkenny and Waterford Councils is more of a no-brainer, if we're being honest. There doesn't seem to be the appetite for that though.
Squidvicious wrote: » fuzzy dunlop wrote: » I think the likelihood is that the population over there will be 20000 or more in the next twenty years or so. The most recent changes to the LAP that Kilkenny made for the area has removed the name Waterford from its header. They now call it Ferrybank Belview LAP in a pretense that it is not holistically part of Waterford. They want to ignore the 800lb gorilla and pretend it is a physically seperate town in itself like Thomastown but this will backfire badly on them. Already it is the second largest town in the county. In twenty years you might have a situation where the "Ferrybank-Belview" urban area could be approaching a population nearing what Kilkenny is now. Think about that for a minute. The recorded population for Kilkenny City at the moment is not the urban population. It includes some large rural districts comparable let's say to the rural areas in the "metropolitan" district of Waterford between Waterford Tramore and Dunnmore East. It is not unthinkable that it could eclipse the population of Kilkenny City or come within a shout. There is a precedent for this happening. Tramore and Dungarvan. The largest town in Waterford is Tramore and not Dungarvan any more. Tramore and the Dunmore Road have been the main areas of growth in Waterford. Both areas expanded massively between 1986 and 2006. There must be a population increase of 20000 approx between both areas. I had an off the cuff conversation with a City Council workers who told me that once the expectation was the future development would orient from the city toward Tramore. What happened was it went towards Dunmore instead. The overspill from Waterford went to Tramore . Whatever happens the cat is out of the bag for Kilkenny (no pun intended). There is a political problem over there on the horizon. And the only cure for it is a boundary extension. Fantastic! Think of all the extra hurlers that could mean for us:D:D
fuzzy dunlop wrote: » Doubt it. The majority of people in the area we're talking about consider themselves Waterford.
Squidvicious wrote: » Dunmoreroader wrote: » Yeah I have this vision of Waterford in the year 2100 having failed repeatedly to expand northwards, population 150,000 with suburbs and commuter routes filling the land out to Tramore Kilmeaden and Woodstown. But they're still farming above in Kilculliheen Ballyrobin and Newrath! From listening to some of the vox-pops for a lot of people it's a fear of their rural way of life being swamped by urbanisation. I get it but I'm sure some country people in places like Ballygunner and Butlerstown were fearful about the city spreading out to engulf their parishes when previous boundary extensions occurred. But we didn't hear the hysteria and lies which the current situation has given rise to. There are sound geographical reasons for the relative lack of housing on the Ferrybank side. Firstly, having only one bridge has always been an impediment to development. Secondly, immediately opposite the Quay is a cliff for the most part - hardly conducive to housing! No doubt Waterford has developed far more in certain directions than others. However, the imbalance is not just on the Ferrybank side. You reach open country very quickly on the Bilberry and Gracedieu road sides also. By the 90's, significant development had commenced in Ferrybank and would have continued but for the economic crash(and will continue in the future). There was as much building in Ferrybank(outside Waterford) in the 10 years before the crash as any suburb within the City. I, and others have asked repeatedly how moving the boundary will make a real difference to the development of the City or improve the lives of people in the affected area(admittedly these points are linked, at least partly). I still haven't received any proper answer to this. I've said before that the big questions for Waterford's development are the hospital, the college/university and more foreign investment. I'm sure that everyone will agree that these are important issues, though some might add more. I fail to see how these issues will be affected by houses being built in Newrath instead of Logloss. You're all saying how obvious it is that the extension is a no-brainer and should have been done years ago. Repeating something doesn't make it true.
Squidvicious wrote: » fuzzy dunlop wrote: » Doubt it. The majority of people in the area we're talking about consider themselves Waterford. Better again. From what I hear, Kilkenny hurlers aren't what they were so drafting in a few Waterford hurlers could be just what we need
fuzzy dunlop wrote: » True! But you'd give up all that hurling for a Tesco's. Admit it. Especially if they went into Ferrybank SC.
Parachutes wrote: » Pretty much. As a compromise why not allow Waterford City and County council to administer the area while allowing the area to still form part of Kilkenny county? As much as I'd love to officially become part of Waterford I'd hate to allow the opposition to get in the way of a sensible idea.
Squidvicious wrote: » Agreed. I've always said that a wholesale reorganisation is what's needed rather than shifting a line a few fields in one direction. I'm an awful man for repeating myself but a minor border shift will make no difference to Waterford's economic prospects.
fuzzy dunlop wrote: » Now listen very very very carefully so you won't have to embarrass yourself by make foolish statements like this one "I, and others have asked repeatedly how moving the boundary will make a real difference to the development of the City or improve the lives of people in the affected area" You have told repeatedly the reasons here or else you've lost the plot. Or else you are just bulsh!tting There are fifty pages of posts and the issues have been discussed. The issues are the basic neglect of the area. There are residential areas emerging there for years the oldest being abbey park and there are barely footpaths there even now. The Ferrybank Shopping Centre is a textbook case of bad planning. It is living proof that despite all the talk of "co-operation" KK has no intention of doing so. The LAP for the area has so many contradictions it is virtually unworkable. The whole aim of the LAP retail strategy is to maximize rates and deny Waterford access to its hinterland. This has been discussed here before! Where were you? The smaller and more suitable neighborhood center near Abbey Park was more than enough. Even that is unoccupied since 2008. Not only did they try to sabotage Waterford but they also did so to Kilkenny residents with businesses in Ferrybank. I doubt Bobby Aylward brought this up in the Rhu Glenn. Contrast this with the Dunmore road and the town centre development near Ardkeen. Your assessment of the cliffs behind the train station as an obstacle is BS. Similar topography in Billberry has not stopped housing being constructed. Major housing and mixed use development was planned for the Ard Ri. You also seem to be blissfully unaware that housing development also needs natural amenities and access to public Transport. I don't know what logic you are using regarding the bridge or Logloss or if you even know the area outside of looking at a map. Either way you have inadvertently shown why the extension is needed These areas are also predicted to have strong growth and have already experienced it. The only places left to go is Ferrybank area and Logloss! The later is probably at a more advanced staged than Ferrybak/Belview. You seem to be under the impression that Waterford has to exhaust all land before an extension is justified? This is not how towns and cities are planned. Along with housing, allowances have to be made for industry and other land uses. There are two areas. Logloss/Carriclpherish and Ferrybank/Belview. It is not either/or it is both areas need to be developed in Tandem. . This is going to get worse. There is also a provision for a second bridge downstream in the land use strategy to connect The Bridge? Why do you think this inhibits housing development in Ferrybank? On the contrary development north of the river is needed to relieve congestion on the bridge. The industrial zone near Belview is a major source and destination of trafficthe area. There is no reason to think this is not achievable. As for your Hospital and University comments. Nice Try! But this is a mere deflection. These are highly important. But they are no less important issue in this country is proper planning.You seemed to have missed the banking inquiry! Sh!tty planning like Ferrybank SC is why we are stuck with dodgy entities like NAMA. I heard a few of the residents of Slieverue taking the shrill "They'd be better off fixing the hospital over there" on the radio as if it was solely Waterford's responsibility to fight for THEIR Hospital[img=20x20]file:///C:/Users/Colm/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/img]
fuzzy dunlop wrote: » The Ferrybank Shopping Centre is a textbook case of bad planning. It is living proof that despite all the talk of "co-operation" KK has no intention of doing so. The LAP for the area has so many contradictions it is virtually unworkable. The whole aim of the LAP retail strategy is to maximize rates and deny Waterford access to its hinterland. This has been discussed here before! Where were you? The smaller and more suitable neighborhood center near Abbey Park was more than enough. Even that is unoccupied since 2008. Not only did they try to sabotage Waterford but they also did so to Kilkenny residents with businesses in Ferrybank. I doubt Bobby Aylward brought this up in the Rhu Glenn. Contrast this with the Dunmore road and the town centre development near Ardkeen.
Suryavarman wrote: » Ferrybank Shopping Centre is a textbook case of bad planning on Waterford's behalf, not Kilkenny's. That shopping centre would never have been built if there wasn't a concerted effort by Waterford people to stop a suitable sized shopping centre being built in Waterford City centre. 10 years later and all we have is work commencing on an extension to City Square and planning approval for a Mickey Mouse shopping centre at new Street. Kilkenny haven't tried to sabotage Waterford. The only thing sabotaging Waterford is the people living in Waterford and their steadfast refusal to accept that most of the reason Waterford is a dump is because of the people living there, instead preferring to blame the big bad Government.
BBM77 wrote: » This must be a new record for the most ridiculous negativity in a single post!
Max Powers wrote: » BBM77 wrote: » This must be a new record for the most ridiculous negativity in a single post! I think negativity is wrong word...idiotic, far fetched, delusional or living in their own misguided fantasy world for those not into the whole brevity thing.alas, it shows up the weakness of the against argument, get your submission in on the npf site as one thing for sure, the pitch fork crowd will be.
Squidvicious wrote: » Took me a while to get back to you. Firstly, I don't appreciate being told to listen very carefully or told that I'm embarrassing myself. I don't believe that I have been insulting to anyone else here, so let's try to keep this civil. The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm thick. Sometimes people can have honest disagreements.
Squidvicious wrote: » The Shopping Centre? Yes, it's a mess. However, it's not as though KKCC went and built it. Remember that An Bord Pleanala granted it permission too. Dunnes initially signed up to a lease. A bank, presumably funded it. So that's a number of other parties who supported it and thought that it could succeed. It was built in different times when Ferrybank looked like expanding rapidly(and Ferrybank will do so again).
Squidvicious wrote: » Bilberry? My point is that that's a part of Waterford which was not developed until very recently. Everyone seems to assume that Ferrybank would be like the Dunmore Road if it had been part of Waterford. However, until Carn Glas was built in the 90's, you could reach open countryside a few hundred yards from Supervalu. So that's an area of Waterford even less developed than Ferrybank until very recently despite being under Waterford's jurisdiction. The lack of development in
Squidvicious wrote: » Ferrybank is not necessarily anything to do with which Council runs it. I suspect that Ferrybank would be no more developed today if you'd had the boundary extension 30 years ago. And Ferrybank did expand to a great degree in the years before the economic crash, again under the jurisdiction of Kilkenny County Council. Remember Councils do not build housing estates. Builders do. There is plenty infrastructure (e.g. water supply etc) in Ferrybank to allow it to expand under KKCC. If people want to move to new estates in Ferrybank, they will do so regardless of which Council runs it. There is no necessity for it all to be under one Council. Isn't Dublin divided into 4 local authorities?
Squidvicious wrote: » As for the bolded bit, come on - surely you have to admit that having only one bridge is a bit of an issue? Have you ever seen the traffic in the morning over there? It's nearly all going in one direction and that's not in the direction of Belview. Ease of access to an area is crucial and having only one bridge is an impediment to Ferrybank's growth. You could say that Ferrybank's problem over the decades has been a chicken and egg one. People were slow to move there because there was a perception that there were no facilities. There were no facilities there because there weren't enough people there(who had access to ample facilities very close by in Waterford anyway).
Squidvicious wrote: » As Ferrybank expands that problem(lack of facilities) will resolve itself, regardless of which Council runs it.
fuzzy dunlop wrote: » I really don’t care what you appreciate. I don’t appreciate having to go over the same sh!t over and over again for the benefit of someone who is either too lazy to inform themselves or just plain lying! You ARE embarrassing yourself. You made a ridiculous claim that nobody gave justifiable reason for the extension.I stand by my point that no convincing argument has been made to show that the extension will make any major difference to Waterford's development. By development, I an principally talking about it's economic development. Will the extension make any difference in terms of job, hospital or educational facilities? No evidence that it will. Will it make any difference to the lives of people in John's Park, Viewmount or Hillview? I can't see that it will. Banks don’t do planning so that point is moot. Dunnes Stores don’t do planning so that is also not relevant at all. An Bord Pleaneala arbitrate disputes! If there is no objection they will not get involved. So ABP did not endorse it. There was a subterfuge involved in the final application where the application was made, objected too by Waterford, withdrawn and made again. This is how it got through! If Waterford CC had been quicker off the mark and less trusting they would have objected and it would have been undoubtedly objected. Nothing at all to do with ABP
mire wrote: » I have observed the waterford city boundary debate for many years; I read the most recent report of the Local Government Committee and followed through the media the various responses from both sides, so to speak. I have heard nothing, and I mean nothing, of substance in support of not altering the boundary. There is no reason in logic to justify maintaining the status quo. Kilkenny County Council has - through its actions, policies and planning, demonstrated quite clearly that it does not take the idea of cooperation one bit seriously. It has also demonstrated very explicitly that it does not have what it takes to run a large part of an urban entity competently; it has treated Ferrybank shamefully - in planning terms. The place is simply being used as a container for gathering rates. It should be subject to a PrimetIme investigates! What I have heard instead from those opposing the extension is immature rhetoric about culture and the GAA; that's all, there seems to be no more substance than a narrow protectionist reaction based on silly statements and the worst type of gombeenism one could imagine - the lebensraum/ww2 analogies are a disgrace. What I have read on this forum is much more measured, but is based on the same misinformation and prejudice. It's depressing. In my view, there is a very compelling social, economic, environmental and governance case for a boundary adjustment - to reflect the reality that Waterford city's footprint extends into what is now administered by Kilkenny County Council. By the way, County Councils don't own their territories, they simply administer them on behalf of those people who reside there, so thi stalk about land grabs is nonsense. I don't see any valid reason not to extend that boundary. It's what cities all over the world do when they expand. Grow up Kilkenny, focus your energies on the city you have got right (Kilkenny - which is a model of good planning), and allow Waterford city develop and plan its own urban area, properly.
Squidvicious wrote: » If you want change, the person arguing for it has got to make the case . What would Waterford do differently in Ferrybank if there is an extension? As for the social and economic case, I've said before that I would have more sympathy for the proposal had it been an extension into the old Waterford City Council - at least the old Waterford city was a coherent entity as opposed to a county which extends from Ferrybank to Youghal bridge. As I've said before, if you really think that boundaries need changing, then do it properly and have a rational redesign of county boundaries on a countrywide basis to reflect economic and social realities rather than just moving a border a few fields in one direction.
Squidvicious wrote: » If you want change, the person arguing for it has got to make the case . What would Waterford do differently in Ferrybank if there is an extension?
