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Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

Spanish Eyes

I'm just a bit puzzled by this impending statement by Enda Kenny, being delivered shortly.

Does it change any law, does it change the Constitution?

Does anyone know. Information is thin on the ground really AFAIS.

Thanks.

Edit: Mod warning http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102785057&postcount=212

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cursai

Sleeper12 wrote: »

How would that be so? I would have expected anyone who works with travellers will have an easier time as there is now a legal recognition & the added protection by law.
I can see it being harder to discriminate against them but that's not a bad thing

I'm talking about organisations that are supposed to treat all people (Irish Citizens to be exact) equally. Such as social welfare or Gardai. Now they are......but aren't. They'll(not all) be the ones discriminating, not the other way round.

Galwayguy35

Deleted User wrote: »

So employers are queuing up for them, they want them as secretaries and bar staff and waitresses and teachers and so on...it's just that they are genetically lazy?

I doubt it.

Yes no one denies that some employers might have that attitude but do you seriously think that's the reason most of them don't work?

I did the LC in 1992 and the jobs you would get back then with it need a degree now, if travellers are serious about change then they need to stop dropping out the minute they reach 16.

I've worked with travellers so it proves they can get jobs if they want but nobody is going knock on the door a job if someone sits on their arse at home all day.

[Deleted User]

cursai wrote:

I'm talking about organisations that are supposed to treat all people (Irish Citizens to be exact) equally. Such as social welfare or Gardai. Now they are......but aren't. They'll(not all) be the ones discriminating, not the other way round.

You don't seem to understand what being recognised as a ethnic group means.
They are still Irish people. They are entitled to the same as you & I. That's it. You need to ignore the nonsense posted here about being given land and such.
There will be no confusion in social welfare or the Gardai. If someone is breaking the law they are treated the same. Travellers or settled people.
Being an ethnic group they are entitled to protect & preserve their heritage. If their heritage is crime then its still illegal. It's scaremongering to claim otherwise

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

yeah. yeah. look, in an ideal world nobody would break the law. but they do. no amount of whining about personal responsibility is going to change the reality. as they being told to not do it doesn't work, the enforcers of the law have to enforce the law.

end of the road wrote: »

yeah. yeah. look, in an ideal world nobody would break the law. but they do. no amount of whining about personal responsibility is going to change the reality. as they being told to not do it doesn't work, the enforcers of the law have to enforce the law

And in an ideal world, the enforcers would be able to enforce it. I'm not arguing with you, I'm saying it's a two way street. It's rich to call it "whining about personal responsibility" when you are just as equally whining about law enforcement!

Look, I'm fairly middle of the road (not end of it

) when it comes to social issues. I fcuking DESPISE racists and bigots. If anyone uttered the word n*gger viscously near me, I'd remove myself from their company. If someone casually refers to travellers as knackers, I automatically like them a hell of a lot less. However, I think the reputation that travellers have isn't just made up out of nowhere. Where does it come from?

cursai

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You don't seem to understand what being recognised as a ethnic group means.
They are still Irish people. They are entitled to the same as you & I. That's it. You need to ignore the nonsense posted here about being given land and such.
There will be no confusion in social welfare or the Gardai. If someone is breaking the law they are treated the same. Travellers or settled people.
Being an ethnic group they are entitled to protect & preserve their heritage. If their heritage is crime then its still illegal. It's scaremongering to claim otherwise

You don't seem to understand how things work in actuality. They WILL get extra allowances. In courts, welfare due to political pressures, public view, EU etc etc...COUNT ON IT!!!

And i've nothing against anybody and deal with these groups and others full time.

[Deleted User]

cursai wrote:

You don't seem to understand how things work in actuality. They WILL get extra allowances. In courts, welfare due to political pressures, public view, EU etc etc...COUNT ON IT!!!

Nope. They can now stop people (many posters here) discriminating against them.
All they have are equal rights. Many of the comments posters here are identical to the comments when slavery ended in the states and the blacks weren't even equal there under law. Some is just ignorance and a lot is scaremongering

JamboMac

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Nope. They can now stop people (many posters here) discriminating against them.
All they have are equal rights. Many of the comments posters here are identical to the comments when slavery ended in the statesand the blacks weren't even equal there under law. Some is just ignorance and a lot is scaremongering

This is some claim, baseless, but some claim none the less.

ScumLord

JamboMac wrote: »

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=100&n=110&a=10364

Here's the study and it basically cites the reason for it being the cousin marriages and so on and this come with numerous traveller specific disorders, so if you want the joy of ethnic minority status start breeding with your cousins.

Something to talk about at the next wedding/funeral.

the_syco

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I did the LC in 1992 and the jobs you would get back then with it need a degree now, if travellers are serious about change then they need to stop dropping out the minute they reach 16.

Pretty much every single job demands LC as minimum.

Now, the travellers may call discrimination, but even if they fake the LC they'll still be missing out a large chunk of basic education due to leaving school early.

Omackeral wrote: »

However, I think the reputation that travellers have isn't just made up out of nowhere. Where does it come from?

From the "bad ones". Some are law abiding, but they are few and far between.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Many of the comments posters here are identical to the comments when slavery ended in the states and the blacks weren't even equal there under law. Some is just ignorance and a lot is scaremongering

Here's an example in the UK; https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2295989/shocking-moment-gang-of-travellers-wave-wooden-bats-and-hurl-abuse-at-bailiffs-trying-to-evict-them-during-tense-five-hour-stand-off/

The travellers illegally trespassed onto land, and threatened the bailiffs that tried to evict them. If you or I trespassed, the police would arrest us. But the travellers demand that they get treated differently because they say they are the same :pac:

winnie the schtink

poor auld tommy tiernan may go back on the dole:pac:

Samaris

There is also an element that we only -hear- about the bad ones. Like, there's never a news story saying "Today in Rathkeale, absolutely nothing of interest happened. A few people had birthdays. Someone got married. The Gardai had a very quiet day."

Not saying that this doesn't mean there's not a higher proportion of criminality amongst the specific population; given the set-up, I'd be surprised if not. Just if you only take the information from news reports, you'll well believe that every one of them (bar Mrs. Connor up the road, of course, you wouldn't even know she was one of them, sure you wouldn't) is a brigand.

Graces7

Omackeral wrote: »

And in an ideal world, the enforcers would be able to enforce it. I'm not arguing with you, I'm saying it's a two way street. It's rich to call it "whining about personal responsibility" when you are just as equally whining about law enforcement!

Look, I'm fairly middle of the road (not end of it ) when it comes to social issues. I fcuking DESPISE racists and bigots. If anyone uttered the word n*gger viscously near me, I'd remove myself from their company. If someone casually refers to travellers as knackers, I automatically like them a hell of a lot less. However, I think the reputation that travellers have isn't just made up out of nowhere. Where does it come from?

It comes from being treated like this for generations. if you lived among or near any other ethnic groups? Look at the attitude to immigrants? And most of the ex pats I know live in cliques from sheer self defence. I know the feeling.

Samaris

As an aside, I suspect the ethnic designation will change relatively little. There will still be a gently-gently attempt to integrate them into settled Irish society, probably with some maintained halting sites for those that really want to travel and it will be illegal to discriminate against them based on their ethnicity - which is already in place. I remember a Bus Eireann sign that was up for years (presumably still is) saying that no-one will or can be discriminated against on the basis of age, race, gender, sexual orientation, something, something or membership of the Travelling community. (There were seven, I did reasonably well to remember five!) The same problems will continue until either the Travellors are integrated or a balance is struck that allows us all to get along. The Gardai sorting out the current batch of gangs will be necessary for that one, although tbh, things have calmed down rather on that front. There was a nasty outbreak in 2008.

The argument that they're not an ethnicity is silly. Ireland was the last European country to recognise it was all. They fit all the markers for it, and even go beyond it with a few potentially significant genetic markers. They have their own languages, own customs (yes, customs, I'm not talking about criminal enterprises!), they feel themselves different (and that is actually an important point) and have delineated points of difference between themselves and the rest of the population. Note - race = biology, ethnicity = culture.

Points that denote an ethnicity:
http://www.intercultural.ie/content/ethnicity-and-ethnic-groups-%E2%80%93-explanation-these-terms
• the belief by members of a social group that they are culturally distinctive and different to outsiders;
Check.

• their willingness to find symbolic markers of that difference (food habits, religion, forms of dress, language) and to emphasise their significance; and
Check - religion (Travellors have stayed far more Catholic than the rest of us), languages (Cant and Shelta), customs (yellow ribbons, approach to weddings, Communions and births, the whole thing of burning the caravan after a death, which is hugely problematic when it transfers to houses..), shared oral histories and stories that are not those of wider Irish society, and ofc, travelling. There are probably others.

• their willingness to organise relationships with outsiders so that a kind of ‘group boundary’ is preserved and reproduced
Proooobably check - I'm not too well-up on who actually started Pavee Point, but it seems to be taken as a representative of the community.

btw, to the people that asked what about their own ethnicities - you're probably ethnically Irish.

Graces7

the_syco wrote: »

Pretty much every single job demands LC as minimum.

Now, the travellers may call discrimination, but even if they fake the LC they'll still be missing out a large chunk of basic education due to leaving school early.

From the "bad ones". Some are law abiding, but they are few and far between.

Here's an example in the UK; https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2295989/shocking-moment-gang-of-travellers-wave-wooden-bats-and-hurl-abuse-at-bailiffs-trying-to-evict-them-during-tense-five-hour-stand-off/

The travellers illegally trespassed onto land, and threatened the bailiffs that tried to evict them. If you or I trespassed, the police would arrest us. But the travellers demand that they get treated differently because they say they are the same :pac:

SO no nontraveller commits offences? As you say it maks news because you want it to.

[Deleted User]

the_syco wrote: »

Pretty much every single job demands LC as minimum.

Now, the travellers may call discrimination, but even if they fake the LC they'll still be missing out a large chunk of basic education due to leaving school early.

From the "bad ones". Some are law abiding, but they are few and far between.

Here's an example in the UK; https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2295989/shocking-moment-gang-of-travellers-wave-wooden-bats-and-hurl-abuse-at-bailiffs-trying-to-evict-them-during-tense-five-hour-stand-off/

The travellers illegally trespassed onto land, and threatened the bailiffs that tried to evict them. If you or I trespassed, the police would arrest us. But the travellers demand that they get treated differently because they say they are the same :pac:

That's not quite true. What happened in Apollo House over the Christmas? The trespassers, not a single one of them travellers, were let stay there a full month before being evicted & to date not a single person arrested.

Here's the new land league video of them trespassing without being arrested. Again they were moved on a short while later.

Posts suggesting different / better laws for travellers is nothing more than scaremongering. What travellers age getting now is equality. How anyone can make out equality is wrong is beyond me.

Noddyholder

A 26-year-old man has been charged with the murder of an elderly man in Co Waterford.

Ross Outram from Ferryland, Clonmel in Co Tipperary, appeared at Dungarvan District Court this morning.

Paddy Lyons, 90, was found dead at his home in Ballysaggart near Lismore on Saturday. https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2qYCxwMHSAhWGtxQKHdlLBKcQFggjMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rte.ie%2Fnews%2F2017%2F0301%2F856264-waterford-paddy-lyons%2F&usg=AFQjCNENgHe3DFXZbA3bjGO8IqejdAkRXQ

And I am sure if this lad was from our new ethnic community we would never have heard the end of it here.

Richard Hillman

JamboMac wrote: »

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=100&n=110&a=10364

Here's the study and it basically cites the reason for it being the cousin marriages and so on and this come with numerous traveller specific disorders, so if you want the joy of ethnic minority status start breeding with your cousins.

The Simpsons Called it

https://youtu.be/eRReRF7uKK0

cursai

I'm rolling my eyes here at the well intentioned naivete. No offence to ye.

end of the road

cursai wrote: »

I'm rolling my eyes here at the well intentioned naivete. No offence to ye.

there is no "well intentioned naivity" apart from in your head.

cursai

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That's not quite true. What happened in Apollo House over the Christmas? The trespassers, not a single one of them travellers, were let stay there a full month before being evicted & to date not a single person arrested.

Here's the new land league video of them trespassing without being arrested. Again they were moved on a short while later.

Posts suggesting different / better laws for travellers is nothing more than scaremongering. What travellers age getting now is equality. How anyone can make out equality is wrong is beyond me.

They weren't moved because they have media backing and widespread public support and sympathy. And the land leaguers are usually gone the same day. If any groups had large enough numbers they are impossible to move until it is mediated.
Some groups always move in large numbers.
Go into any hospital where there is a sick relative of theirs. The limit on visitors to a patient is out the window.
If someone tries to say this isn't the case in going to roll my eyes again and leave this thread and the sheltered posts to themselves. Lol

cursai

end of the road wrote: »

there is no "well intentioned naivity" apart from in your head.

Well said. Your a gentleman and a scholar. Did you do your leaving cert?

[Deleted User]

cursai wrote:

They weren't moved because they have media backing and widespread public support and sympathy. And the land leaguers are usually gone the same day. If any groups had large enough numbers they are impossible to move until it is mediated. Some groups always move in large numbers. Go into any hospital where there is a sick relative of theirs. The limit on visitors to a patient is out the window. If someone tries to say this isn't the case in going to roll my eyes again and leave this thread and the sheltered posts to themselves. Lol

You must look like you are having a seizure with all the eye rolling. You may need to get that looked at.

Glenster

cursai wrote: »

Well said. Your a gentleman and a scholar. Did you do your leaving cert?

Well done, everyone hates you now.

cursai

Glenster wrote: »

Well done, everyone hates you now.

Only the people who live in their heads though.

[Deleted User]

cursai wrote: »

Go into any hospital where there is a sick relative of theirs. The limit on visitors to a patient is out the window.
If someone tries to say this isn't the case in going to roll my eyes again and leave this thread and the sheltered posts to themselves. Lol

Stop the press. Did you say they visit sick relatives in excessive numbers?

How come this national scandal hasn't come to light before? You should shake your fist angrily at the sky about it.

Sofiztikated

cursai wrote: »

They weren't moved because they have media backing and widespread public support and sympathy. And the land leaguers are usually gone the same day. If any groups had large enough numbers they are impossible to move until it is mediated.
Some groups always move in large numbers.
Go into any hospital where there is a sick relative of theirs. The limit on visitors to a patient is out the window.
If someone tries to say this isn't the case in going to roll my eyes again and leave this thread and the sheltered posts to themselves. Lol

To be fair, this applies to a lot of families. Even my own. A lot of people think the rules only apply to other people.

cursai

Sofiztikated wrote: »

To be fair, this applies to a lot of families. Even my own. A lot of people think the rules only apply to other people.

Your seriously saying you go to visit family in groups of forty????

cursai

Deleted User wrote: »

Stop the press. Did you say they visit sick relatives in excessive numbers?

How come this national scandal hasn't come to light before? You should shake your fist angrily at the sky about it.

It's not a national scandal.......

Annasopra

cursai wrote: »

It's not a national scandal.......

Whats the big deal? Some travellers get a few extra visitors in hospital?

[Deleted User]

cursai wrote: »

Your seriously saying you go to visit family in groups of forty????

So every single time a traveller goes to visit someone hospital there is at least 40 in the group?

Now, I fully believe what you are saying. But bet others who are not as kind will think you are floundering and just firing out any old nonsense.