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Child Item

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Annasopra

Very shocked by the news coming from Tuam

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-significant-quantities-of-human-remains-discovered-at-excavation-site-35498856.html

According to Kitty Holland we are talking about hundreds of remains of babies and toddlers

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Shurimgreat

I know the temptation will be to blame the church and religious institutions again, but wider society shares equal blame.

These mothers and their children were failed by everyone in society including the church, politicians, state bodies, civil servants and their own families.

Having a baby out of wedlock could at the time bring shame but also attract the worst kind of gossip and ostracisation, perpetrated often by neighbours and ordinary citizens.

My own view is the politicians of the era up to and including the likes of Devalera must take a large amount of the blame, for giving the church free reign with zero oversight. The reverence shown to the church by politicians went way too far. Only the likes of Noel Browne had the courage to stand up to them. Most of the other politicians were sheep who never raised their voices.

juno10353

If this burial site is confirmed to be that of those innocent children who had death certificates signed, what can the religous order responsible for their burial be charged with. I mean by that, what is the law regarding burials. It is horrific what has taken place, but do we have laws to cover it. I sincerely hope so

[Deleted User]

I think people are beginning to vote with their feet with regards the Catholic Church.

Growing up in the 90s our church was stuffed of a Sunday morning but attitudes are changing and attendances have dwindled significantly. The local priest complained that not many of the confirmation class were turning up for mass recently. Our population has probably remained the same over the last two decades or so. Not a big sample granted but perhaps a more indicative stat is the fact that Finglas are scaling down the local Catholic Church to a smaller church that accommodates 300 people from a one that accomodated 3000. Now i cant imagine that Finglas population has declined much over the years (increased if anything)

jimgoose

KKkitty wrote: »

...my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

That priest should have been dragged by the head of hair from the church and strung up by his ankes from an ESB pole for a couple of days. :mad:

pilly

KKkitty wrote: »

The church and state should be separate entities at this stage. The only real way you can hurt the CC is financially it seems. Strip them of assets while the investigation is ongoing and keep stripping them of assets til justice prevails. Whatever happened to these poor babies, whether it be murder or sudden infant death syndrome, they deserved better than what they got. On top of being forced to give up her first born for adoption my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

Hurting them financially is not the only way. They can be sent to prison. Has their actually ever been a nun sent to prison in this country? I've never heard of it.

pilly

juno10353 wrote: »

There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.

I think you posted this earlier juno.

KKkitty

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

The church and state should be separate entities at this stage. The only real way you can hurt the CC is financially it seems. Strip them of assets while the investigation is ongoing and keep stripping them of assets til justice prevails. Whatever happened to these poor babies, whether it be murder or sudden infant death syndrome, they deserved better than what they got. On top of being forced to give up her first born for adoption my mother lost another baby at 5 months due to cot death. The priest at the time wouldn't allow my parents to put a headstone over the grave because in his words my brother didn't live a long enough life. That happened in the early 80's.

juno10353

There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.

carolinej

carolinej wrote: »

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

Goldenbridge Convent I mean, Not Goldengate....

brevity

When I read of honour killings that take place in India/Iraq/Pakistan I sometimes wonder how someone could be so cruel to their own children/family and think how that couldn't happen here.

The fact that the Catholic church brain washed people to think that the best thing to do with their kids was to give them away or threatened them to give their kids away is absolutely disgusting.

please helpThank YOU

Ireland will never change narrow minded bigoted people in power . all I can remember of my school days was been beaten and kicked and tortured by school teachers in the 1980s in school 1984 and the people who did that me live in big posh homes what in the news today in tuam in Galway has me thinking Ireland has and will never change its the same people in power in 2017 very sad story

neonsofa

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

I'm sorry but if the institutional cover up of abuse of living breathing children was not "an episode too far" then what makes you think this will be?

freedominacup

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The whole family tree of every child should be charged with murder, even they weren't even born at the time, in my opionion
Anyone else?

There's not a family in the country with clean hands on this one. The church is hugely culpable but it was aided and abetted by almost everyone from legislators to service suppliers to janitors not to mention the "families"of the poor unfortunate commited to these places . Far more people knew exactly what was going on but for any number of reasons choose to turn a blind eye.

The biggest driver of putting pregnant girls and young women in these places was protecting property. The bastard might have a claim. That term was only removed from legislation in the past decade or so. Let the family without sin cast the first stone. I know mine can't.

pilly

carolinej wrote: »

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with a few of your points. I think they were bitter aul bitches who were jealous that they would never have sex or babies.

valoren

Statement

The Bon Secours sisters are fully committed to the work of the Commission regarding the mother and baby home in Tuam. On the closing of the Home in 1961 all the records for the Home were returned to Galway County Council who are the owners and occupiers of the lands of the Home. We can therefore make no comment on today’s announcement, other than to confirm our continued cooperation with and support for the work of the Commission in seeking the truth about the home.

carolinej

Truly shocking, horrendous & deeply heart breaking. I just cannot understand the mindset of those nuns tasked with looking after children and their mother's who were alone, far from home, scared & vulnerable, and why these "brides of God" were so so cruel and heartless to the plight of innocent babies. I just cannot fathom or get my head around it.

Anytime I pick up a baby, all I want to do is cuddle & protect. As women, where was their maternal loving & nurturing? Did they leave it at the gate when they took their vows, were they bitter they were nuns and would have preferred to be married? Was it a power trip over unmarried mothers who were shunned by family. Why Why Why and Yet, not all families banished their daughter to M&B homes.

I have a relation who had a baby back in the 1960's and she was neither sent to a home or had to give the baby up. She reared him at home with her family until she married herself and husband took on her child as his own. And this happened in rural 1960's Irl. She had several uncles who were priests and a cousin who was a nun (who was buried in Goldengate cemetery, my parents were at her funeral, said it was a horrible place) so maybe on some level it was known if she was sent away the baby would be given up for adoption. I don't know.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Graces7

KKkitty wrote: »

My mother was in a mother and baby home in the early 70's. Whilst in labour a nun slapped her in the face because my mother dared to scream with the the pain of childbirth. The nun told her to shut up and said that's what you get for your sins. This discovery is only the tip of the iceberg. These poor babies didn't ask for this and the state should cut all ties with the CC but won't. This is an absolute disgrace but the CC will find some way out of it, they always do.

Not this time. When the first Tuam news came out two years ago, I was still trading at markets etc and this was always going to be one episode too far. Attacking babies?

The Church as an institution?

If you are thinking in terms of physical punishment?

They need to be stripped of their assets. Still not paid their abuse fines etc.

Mother Teresa was the same. Starving babies...

Graces7

lazybones32 wrote: »

This isn't exactly breaking news though, so I fail to see why someone gets upset despite this being known (to a degree) for some time.
The Gardai are still investigating, so I'll not act as judge, jury and executioner on anyone or any institution until more information is known - and I'd advise others to do the same but I won't hold my breath...

The papers used Corless' paper to run with their stories too but ended up inventing quotes and passing them off as source material. The Indo, in particular, should be viewed with very cautious eyes....I don't trust them to give the correct date.

This is not coming from the press. Read the article ?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-other-mother-and-baby-homes-must-also-be-investigated-779840.html

Many of us have known much of this for years as truth and fact. Involved with survivors.

The day we stop being upset at atrocities?

Two years ago RC forums tried to dismiss the Tuam discoveries as a hoax .

There are no exaggerations here; clear scientific fact. No hoax.

dav3

Snickers Man wrote: »

Not doubting that they were hardly first-class medical facilities but it's quite difficult to compare statistically a home predominantly inhabited by infants/young children who were, let's face it, mainly from the poorer sections of society with attendant lower levels of health and "society in general." Hospitals have higher death rates than family homes statistically speaking. But that's because they're full of sick people.

I'm trying not to be facetious, just pointing out that statistical comparisons are difficult to carry out fairly.

You are indeed being facetious, you are also being disingenuous. This is not a recent development. Stories surrounding these homes have circulated for decades. Babies sold, babies given up for adoption without the mother’s consent, babies handed over for medical experiments.

If some of the revelations make you feel uncomfortable, I suggest taking a break and reading something a bit lighter. We will have to wait for further reports to see if the cause of deaths can be determined.

Until then, we do know that a significant number of babies were thrown into a pit, they attempted to cover this practice up and they’re still attempting to cover it up.

please helpThank YOU

this is Ireland 2017 Horrific story. but nothing new and this will not be last of this in Ireland. Scandal the way Irish government agencies treat the poor in poverty .

Seth Brundle

I think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions on the cause of death (given the references to murder, etc). We do need to find out how they died before demanding heads.

Ninetheless, in all likelihood nothing will happen here, bar a monument and a few politicians shouting so they look good in front of voters. Maybe a bishop will ask everyone "is there anything to be said about having another mass?" and the sheep will gather and listen to him.

What do we realistically expect to happen? We treat lots of our citizens like muck so why worry about a load if poor kids from the past? What about the currently missing children? What about those ignoring abuse all around us? Things have improved but still are below where they should be. How many of us complaining now will actually do something to improve the lives of disadvantaged children?

We're feeling sanctimonious about this and rightly so. But we will continue to turn a blind eye to current disgraces!

pilly

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't see any defense for anyone apart for the mothers and babies who were dumped/born in these places, and who were given no choice.

Maybe it was deflection you were looking for then RobertKK. Why bring up the fact that parents put young women into these homes? 2 wrongs do not make a right whatever way you look at it.

pilly

bubblypop wrote: »

This isn't just an Irish or Catholic thing either.
Many many hundreds, if not thousands of English children from the same kind of homes were shipped off to Canada or Australia over the years. It was cheaper for the state then keep them.
In Australia, the state took aboriginal children away from their families and placed them in white homes.
It appears to me that it was something that happened, of a time, it was everybody's attitude.

We should be grateful we live now, when children are protected as much as possible

Like Grace was?

KKkitty

My mother was in a mother and baby home in the early 70's. Whilst in labour a nun slapped her in the face because my mother dared to scream with the the pain of childbirth. The nun told her to shut up and said that's what you get for your sins. This discovery is only the tip of the iceberg. These poor babies didn't ask for this and the state should cut all ties with the CC but won't. This is an absolute disgrace but the CC will find some way out of it, they always do.

lazybones32

Graces7 wrote: »

Th eplaque etc was the work of local folk who knew what was going on but were powereless. Same at Bessborough in Cork and elsewhere.

I think you need to be aware of the sheert otal power the church had over sociery in those days.

The irony is that if it had not been fr the clerical child abuse? They really thought they would never be found out.

scuse typos; deeply upset.

Oh and thr report is not from papers but officialsources.

This isn't exactly breaking news though, so I fail to see why someone gets upset despite this being known (to a degree) for some time.
The Gardai are still investigating, so I'll not act as judge, jury and executioner on anyone or any institution until more information is known - and I'd advise others to do the same but I won't hold my breath...

The papers used Corless' paper to run with their stories too but ended up inventing quotes and passing them off as source material. The Indo, in particular, should be viewed with very cautious eyes....I don't trust them to give the correct date.

Dr Crayfish

Makes me sick, that scum organisation. The fact that people still go to their churches is just incredible. My mind f*cking boggles. Support these paedophiles and murderers. They should be burned to the ground every last Catholic organisation on this island.

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

One of these was in a field in Tuam. They're not totally certain how many bodies were there. The farmer that owned the field was such an arse and wouldn't let any of the still living family members visit or even put up a plaque commemorating the fact. For years he refused. Until the farmer that owned the neighbouring field opened up a portion of it, paved a path, and allowed the people to put up a marker with some of the names of the babies that were known to be there - many came from the same family.

From what I remember, if the baby died before it was baptized, it was just dumped in this field. Many times the mothers were never told where their baby was taken.

All unbaptised babies and eg suicides were buried in unconsecrated ground, called the killeeens.. no names . no memorials.

No heaven or hell;limbo. That idea was done away with

Some places have put up plaques and consecrated the ground. Many farmers refused to allow access.

Story of a midwife who did not want dying twin newborns to go there and baptised them.. the only name she could think of was Mary so they are both Mary on the gravestone .. the Abbey, Donegal Town

SILVAMAN

Outrageous institution the Catholic Church.
It ought to be disestablished in Ireland, the leaders arrested, property seized and used to compensate victims, and the churches returned to parishes on the condition that they the people own them, and that there is no money sent to or contact with Rome.

Snickers Man

juno10353 wrote: »

The 800 or so babies who died in the Mother and baby home in Tuam at that time had Death certificates, but never had burial details, nor were they listed in official burial grounds. When this was investigated it was rumoured that the burials had taken place on site. Now this is confirmed. This is not consecrated ground, but the site of old sewage pit. It has been claimed in past that bodies had not been buried in coffins, but just disguarded. It would seem now that evidence supports this total disrespect for young lives lost in Bons Secour Mother and Baby Home

I totally agree. And I think the Church's recent statements on how Catholics should only bury the cremated remains of their loved ones on consecrated ground ring somewhat hollow when compared with their shabby treatment of the dead at these homes.

But is any of that a secular crime? ie against the law of the land? I don't know whether there is a requirement to inform the authorities exactly where a dead body has been buried once you have notified them of the death itself. As seems to have been done here. Does anybody know the legal position?