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Child Item

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Annasopra

Very shocked by the news coming from Tuam

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-significant-quantities-of-human-remains-discovered-at-excavation-site-35498856.html

According to Kitty Holland we are talking about hundreds of remains of babies and toddlers

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whisky_galore

Deleted User wrote: »

One of these was in a field in Tuam. They're not totally certain how many bodies were there. The farmer that owned the field was such an arse and wouldn't let any of the still living family members visit or even put up a plaque commemorating the fact. For years he refused. Until the farmer that owned the neighbouring field opened up a portion of it, paved a path, and allowed the people to put up a marker with some of the names of the babies that were known to be there - many came from the same family.

From what I remember, if the baby died before it was baptized, it was just dumped in this field. Many times the mothers were never told where their baby was taken.

These were widespread, and called cillíní, places where unbaptised and suicides and anyone else that couldn't be respectfully buried in a normal graveyard according to the morals of the time.

The_Kew_Tour

I know this may sound insignificant and maybe to some little petty of me, but I am am little disgusted at RTE website that this does not seem to be the main headline.

This really is a brutally shocking story developing. I know its not the first find, but still.

Sorry if im being ott.

[Deleted User]

One of these was in a field in Tuam. They're not totally certain how many bodies were there. The farmer that owned the field was such an arse and wouldn't let any of the still living family members visit or even put up a plaque commemorating the fact. For years he refused. Until the farmer that owned the neighbouring field opened up a portion of it, paved a path, and allowed the people to put up a marker with some of the names of the babies that were known to be there - many came from the same family.

From what I remember, if the baby died before it was baptized, it was just dumped in this field. Many times the mothers were never told where their baby was taken.

sjb25

Bargain Blake wrote: »

Anyone want to take an intelligent guess at how many people will be charged with any crimes for what amounts to nothing short of genocide?

ZERO

Grayson

Snickers Man wrote: »

Not doubting that they were hardly first-class medical facilities but it's quite difficult to compare statistically a home predominantly inhabited by infants/young children who were, let's face it, mainly from the poorer sections of society with attendant lower levels of health and "society in general." Hospitals have higher death rates than family homes statistically speaking. But that's because they're full of sick people.

I'm trying not to be facetious, just pointing out that statistical comparisons are difficult to carry out fairly.

They do have stats for the mortality rate of children from married and unmarried mothers. Now being unmarried doesn't mean that they were in one of the homes but it is likely. The children of unmarried mothers had a mortality rate of nearly 3 times that of married mothers.

sjb25

I don't even no what to say about this (unusual for me)
What a shower of fcuking evil basterds
Preaching to everyone letting on they where better than everyone
Any nonsense that it was different times etc etc is bulsh1t scum is all they are

Bargain Blake

Anyone want to take an intelligent guess at how many people will be charged with any crimes for what amounts to nothing short of genocide?

Snickers Man

dav3 wrote: »

People have certainly remained calm since the beginning of this investigation which has lasted a number of years. I don't see many people being irrational.

Let it remain so then. But there ARE some statements here, and I am mainly limiting my comments to statements made here, that are inflammatory, intemperate and misleading. For example :

Were some children at Mother and Baby Homes used for medical research?
This is a contentious issue. There was some evidence that the bodies of some children from Mother and Baby Homes were given to anatomy departments in Irish universities for medical research.

Now I accept that donating a dead body to science should only be done with the prior agreement of the person itself, if they were an adult, or their rightful parents/guardians if they were a child but there is a clear difference between the meaning of the question, which implies that experiments were carried out on living children, and the answer which is clearly about experiments on corpses. This is an example, I suggest, of presumptuous and biased reporting masquerading as fact checking.

I also accept that there is evidence that vaccine trials were carried out on living children from similar homes in the 1930s and that there is no government record of same, although references were made to the trials in medical journals. It seems to have been common practice at the time. Should our anger be directed at the medical profession retrospectively?

dav3 wrote: »

The mortality rates alone in these mother and baby homes were extremely high.

Not doubting that they were hardly first-class medical facilities but it's quite difficult to compare statistically a home predominantly inhabited by infants/young children who were, let's face it, mainly from the poorer sections of society with attendant lower levels of health and "society in general." Hospitals have higher death rates than family homes statistically speaking. But that's because they're full of sick people.

I'm trying not to be facetious, just pointing out that statistical comparisons are difficult to carry out fairly.

The_Kew_Tour

wow I knew of coverups and I guess you will always hear stories that will shock you and new things come out.

I knew things were bad, but if the links are true, then my God we had our own deep dark history.

juno10353

The 800 or so babies who died in the Mother and baby home in Tuam at that time had Death certificates, but never had burial details, nor were they listed in official burial grounds. When this was investigated it was rumoured that the burials had taken place on site. Now this is confirmed. This is not consecrated ground, but the site of old sewage pit. It has been claimed in past that bodies had not been buried in coffins, but just disguarded. It would seem now that evidence supports this total disrespect for young lives lost in Bons Secour Mother and Baby Home

whisky_galore

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

My Dad would be like "times were better in our day", but then when you read about this, how can anyone say that!

Rose-tinted bollocks.
Everyone was supposed to know their place. There was a thin veneer of respectability, people turfed their own flesh and blood out of their homes and into an institution because they had 'sinned'.
People should have at least suspected if not knew full well they were not nice places to end up in.

Graces7

Samaris wrote: »

Graces - hope you don't mind me saying, but you sound like you're having a physical reaction to the shock. Will it be taken amiss if I suggest you have a cup of hot tea or something similar and wrap a blanket around yourself?

No sarcasm, but you sound upset by it all (and it's an awful thing) so just saying that from concern.

Thanks and yes, for reasons I cannot explain in the forums.deeply, deeply upset and hot sweet coffee already drunk and hot water bottles.

as I have said, been dreading this for two years and more and it is far worse then we thought and far more ahead, believe me.

is OK; have family involved and have talked to them on the phone.

will be fine later.. I promise.

I think too that many many strong and faithful catholics will be deeply distresses. My faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ beyond and above the Church and it not on any doubt or danger. Thankfully. As an abuse survivor too...

sincere thanks for your kindness! Blessings and peace

SEPT 23 1989

I presume the privacy tents are being erected and the diggers are moving in as we speak like would happen in any other civilised country

percy212

I didn't know that Graces7. Thanks for that info. I will do some reading. There we have it then. Sell the good kids, and experiment on the ones that can't be exported. What a country.

Graces7 wrote: »

there were vaccine trials. this has been known years. read ryan and murphy

Graces7

percy212 wrote: »

I think this is the crux of the matter. The women and babies placed in these institutions were seen as profitable goods. The women were worked, the babies were sold, or worse died.

For those who "died", I often wondered if there were any relationships with American drug companies for the purposes of human testing. Worth exploring by a journalist..

there were vaccine trials. this has been known years. read ryan and murphy

Graces7

endacl wrote: »

The septic tank however, was not introduced to the UK until the latter years of the 19th century. The site in question can't be explained away with 'sure those remains are probably much older than the institution'.

read the breaking news articel. remains dated from 50s

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-other-mother-and-baby-homes-must-also-be-investigated-779840.html

percy212

I think this is the crux of the matter. The women and babies placed in these institutions were seen as profitable goods. The women were worked, the babies were sold, or worse died.

For those who "died", I often wondered if there were any relationships with American drug companies for the purposes of human testing. Worth exploring by a journalist..

jimgoose wrote: »

These people were in the business of selling "fresh" babies for money. To that end, skilled accountants as many of them were, keeping the "cost of goods sold" as it were, minimal was of great concern. This meant minimal food, minimal heating, minimal medical care, minimal everything. Including funeral expense. The State were certainly in collusion with this, given that it was a far cheaper option than doing it's duty in this matter. For money. At this point I am all for declaring this an attempted genocide, a military matter, and shooting a few of these disgusting rat-bastards in the yard at Dublin Castle. :mad:

Samaris

Graces - hope you don't mind me saying, but you sound like you're having a physical reaction to the shock. Will it be taken amiss if I suggest you have a cup of hot tea or something similar and wrap a blanket around yourself?

No sarcasm, but you sound upset by it all (and it's an awful thing) so just saying that from concern.

Graces7

lazybones32 wrote: »

And how much is "significant quantities"?
I don't see what causes you such shock - even the picture in the link shows that it is known there are people buried there. They had enough time to put up a plaque.

People need to tread carefully before swallowing whatever the papers print - they've already had to issue an apology for deliberately misleading in relation to this issue.

Th eplaque etc was the work of local folk who knew what was going on but were powereless. Same at Bessborough in Cork and elsewhere.

I think you need to be aware of the sheert otal power the church had over sociery in those days.

The irony is that if it had not been fr the clerical child abuse? They really thought they would never be found out.

scuse typos; deeply upset.

Oh and thr report is not from papers but officialsources.

The_Kew_Tour

Its beyond awful or sad.

My Dad and myself had argument about this before. My Dad would be like "times were better in our day", but then when you read about this, how can anyone say that!

and I reckon people are living in homes and buried are dozens beneath. Who knows mine could be too for all I know.

Grayson

I remember watching the late late as a child in the 80's. There was a priest on it who was saying that bastards (his words) were inherently sinful since they were conceived in sin. They could not be redeemed.

Post independance an idea solidified which had been around for a while. This was that Ireland was a moral catholic country. Irishness was tied to this. The state used it to partly define what Irishness was. I'm not sure where it started. Was it the church pushing the government or the nationalists in government using the church. I have a feeling it was symbiotic since it benefited both parties.

Unmarried women had no part in this. The state needed to do something about it, but rather than give them support they abrogated responsibility to the church. And as we know no, the church were bastards about it. Unmarried mothers were generally viewed as one of the following; insane, women who had made a stupid mistake and were fallen and finally as women who could not be redeemed. However in each case the standard catholic view was that women needed to be punished as a penance.

It's also worth noting that these homes didn't differ much from workhouses. In Madness and Civilisation, Foucault points out that the first workhouses were created by Vincent De Paul. The prevailing view at the time was that being poor and/or lazy was a sin and bad for the soul. The houses that were set up for the destitute had strict regimes of hard labour and prayer to redeem these lost souls. The Laundries had the same view.

As for the children, they were viewed as the product of sin. They had to live hard lives for them to have a chance of overcoming the sin of their birth.

We really were a horrific people back then.

Graces7

bubblypop wrote: »

This isn't just an Irish or Catholic thing either.
Many many hundreds, if not thousands of English children from the same kind of homes were shipped off to Canada or Australia over the years. It was cheaper for the state then keep them.
In Australia, the state took aboriginal children away from their families and placed them in white homes.
It appears to me that it was something that happened, of a time, it was everybody's attitude.

We should be grateful we live now, when children are protected as much as possible

In all the cases you mention? it was the Church. They taught the state well.

endacl

bubblypop wrote: »

This isn't just an Irish or Catholic thing either.
Many many hundreds, if not thousands of English children from the same kind of homes were shipped off to Canada or Australia over the years. It was cheaper for the state then keep them.
In Australia, the state took aboriginal children away from their families and placed them in white homes.
It appears to me that it was something that happened, of a time, it was everybody's attitude.

We should be grateful we live now, when children are protected as much as possible

Kinda was a catholic thing there too.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-06/royal-commission-into-child-sexual-abuse-begins-in-sydney/8242600

Graces7

screamer wrote: »

And the worst part Graces, there will be no justice and no one held accountable for those lost little lives, no one.

Not in this life and believe me I wish it were otherwise.

Nothing will bring them back....

I knew years ago of much of this. Same is happening in eg Canada, where the church actually put children down with injections like animals. google Canadian Holocaust

They were Irish nuns and brs and priests too.

Been on the phone to family there just now. cannot get warm. Knew this was comeing but not this bad.

Autonomous Cowherd

Terrible shameful revelations. Remember when we were so appalled about the Romanians and their dreadful orphanages?....I'm sure people reading about this in far flung parts of the world will feel the same way about the Irish nation.

The whole story of the influence of the Catholic church on our societies activities and values in relation to unwed mothers and ''illegitimate'' children is a stark lesson in the effectiveness of mind programming techniques. That peer pressure and the voice of authority can be so successful in overcoming natural human love and familial protection in favour of a cruel regime that will not be gainsayed. We wonder how the Nazis flourished in ordinary German society - and yet we have our own demonstration of how.

The whole of society, bar some strong rebels, knew and accepted what was going on in these places, looked down enthusiastically on the ''fallen'' women, traded and doffed the cap at the doors of the mother and baby homes, looked the other way as poorer members of society were abused (in every way imaginable). Don't tell me people did not know. They did. Even as a child I sensed it, the hypocrisy, the arrogance, the wilful blindness, the holier than thou programming that made cruel accomplices out of vast swathes of people.
And I say this as someone who experienced the dying sting of this judgmental regime as a young ''unwed'' mother when everyone thought those days were surely gone.

[Deleted User]

This isn't just an Irish or Catholic thing either.
Many many hundreds, if not thousands of English children from the same kind of homes were shipped off to Canada or Australia over the years. It was cheaper for the state then keep them.
In Australia, the state took aboriginal children away from their families and placed them in white homes.
It appears to me that it was something that happened, of a time, it was everybody's attitude.

We should be grateful we live now, when children are protected as much as possible

endacl

mynamejeff wrote: »

some of these sites date back to the 1800s right ?

wasnt the rate of infant mortality very high historically then ?

The septic tank however, was not introduced to the UK until the latter years of the 19th century. The site in question can't be explained away with 'sure those remains are probably much older than the institution'.

RobertKK

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Robert's completely unbiased an in no way deflective analysis has me convinced that it was all the fault of the families that dumped unmarried mothers in these homes, and not the cruel vindictive authoritarian church whose regime they were under the spell of.

The whole family tree of every child should be charged with murder, even they weren't even born at the time, in my opionion
Anyone else?

I think there is a lot of blame to go around for what happened.

SEPT 23 1989

I forgot they used the children for medical experiments:mad:

Akrasia

Snickers Man wrote: »

Why?

Genuine question: what is the law concerning the disposal of recently deceased human corpses, and is it any different now to what it was during the life time of this Mother and Baby Home?....
... But if there was a crime, what was it? Is there any suggestion (I don't believe there is) that any of the deaths were deliberate. Maybe we should calm down and approach this whole situation rationally.

There are plenty of suggestions that at least som of the children died due to neglect, and this is homicide.

You don't get an infant mortality rate death rate of 34% in one year for no reason.

Laying out in stark detail the staggeringly high number of children who were dying in the home each year, it reveals:

* 34 per cent of children died in the home in 1943;
* 25 per cent died in 1944;

* 23 per cent died in 1945.
More than one-in-four (27 per cent) of children living in the home in 1946 lost their lives that year.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/children-at-tuam-home-were-emaciated-and-starved-30337248.html

This was at a time when many people were dirt poor, had poor access to doctors or medication, and still managed to keep their kids alive better than an institution that was specifically set up to care for mothers and their infant children.

It is also a crime to fail to report deaths to the authorities. The census figures don't appear to match the number of bodies in these mass graves.