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Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Ralf and Florian

She presented a documentary on rape culture during the week on RTE which focused on the issue of sexual assault against females. It's interesting to note her response to a (male) follower would tweeted that it would be hilarious to see a remake of Deliverance featuring "pissed up dickheads on a drunken stag". For anyone who's not seen the movie Deliverance its about three city dwellers who go for a weekend fishing to what could be described as a backwoods community. Central to the storyline is when they are held captive and one of them raped by a bunch of rednecks.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/794195404145442816

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midlandsmissus

Omackeral wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"We are conditioned to distrust women, and think they are hysterical"

I know people on here have an issue with this phrase but I'm gonna say it. That's utterly retarded. I distrust my loving girlfriend do I? My mam, who reared a family of four on her own? My sister, who is my favourite person in the world. My teachers, who taught me how to read and write? I never did have a male teacher until I was 12. My various bosses and supervisors who bestowed trust on me to help run a company and gave me opportunities? Officials who I voted into public office?

Pull the other one midlandsmissus and stop perpetuating victim culture, because that's what exists more than anything else.

An Irish man said it.

midlandsmissus

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wibbs- purient nonsense. Its not just me and my personal experience. Time and time again we see feminists, indeed any woman that dares to have an opinion, shouted down. Lon - shouted down, the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist- shouted down. One would wonder why some men are so afraid of women, that they don't let them have an opinion.

Get over the fear.

You're entitled to have an opinion. You're entitled to express that opinion. You're not entitled to have that opinion accepted without challenge.

And yet, why do we never see a thread on here started by a woman, poking at a man who stands up for mans rights, and the thread is filled with hundreds of women calling him 'crazy, a lunatic, a narcissist, attention seeker'.
Because we let men have opinions freely.

Why the aggression? Why the fear?

[Deleted User]

midlandsmissus wrote: »

An Irish man said it.

Well I'm an an Irish man and I disputed it with all my real experiences of how I respect and love women. Did you take any of them examples on board?

bodice ripper

midlandsmissus wrote:

And yet, why do we never see a thread on here started by a woman, poking at a man who stands up for mans rights, and the thread is filled with hundreds of women calling him 'crazy, a lunatic, a narcissist, attention seeker'. Because we let men have opinions freely.

Yer wan is a crazy narcissist. Crying selfie? Ah here.

[Deleted User]

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Because we let men have opinions freely.

We 'let' women have opinions freely. This isn't Saudi Arabia.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why the fear

What's this fear drum you keep banging? There's no fear, just confusion or delusion, not quite sure which.

Widdershins

bodice ripper wrote: »

Yer wan is a crazy narcissist. Crying selfie? Ah here.

What selfie was this?

TheDavester

midlandsmissus wrote: »

And yet, why do we never see a thread on here started by a woman, poking at a man who stands up for mans rights, and the thread is filled with hundreds of women calling him 'crazy, a lunatic, a narcissist, attention seeker'.
Because we let men have opinions freely.

Why the aggression? Why the fear?

Ian o docherty was critisced by me and a few here for his twitter meltdown a few pages back

[Deleted User]

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Omackeral as you can see I have been offline for an hour. Unless you know of a superhuman device that enables me to reply to five people at once, dont be so presumptuous.
Also, I work, and sometimes I have to go to my real life.
So if I dont reply to you (posters) get over it! Its like toddlers demanding attention. Me! Me! Me!

This really is a sad and deflective post and it's indicative of your style overall. I'm not looking for attention whatsoever, I'm merely asking you to respond directly in a discussion/debate. That's why we're here is it not? When did I put a time frame on you? I merely asked you to respond. Sorry if I didn't highlight when you're ready, thought that might have been assumed.

bodice ripper

Widdershins wrote:

What selfie was this?

The McCabe one where she posted a selfie of herself crying reading the responses to her blog post. She has since deleted it, along with various posts and comments that did not agree with her world view.

[Deleted User]

Anyway, when you're good and ready midlandsmissus, would you be so kind as to give your take on the below quote? Not saying right now, just whenever you're free to do so.

Omackeral wrote: »

I work as a Prison Officer. Rapists in prison are seen as the lowest of the low. They are scum. Murderers are miles above them. What does that tell you? Apart from Subversive Republicans (and that's largely political), Sex Offenders are the only category of prisoner requiring their own prison. Imagine that, their own prison because even the dregs of decent society won't accept them. Rapists aren't accepted in decent society and are just as much not accepted in indecent society.

Zulu

Don't expect a response; discussion is bad for dogma.

Besides, she's not looking for a discussion, she's looking to derail and close the thread.

[Deleted User]

The thing I can't figure out is she says men are in fear of women but then her whole argument is that women are in fear of men.

I'm just sitting here like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

RabbleRouser2k

bodice ripper wrote: »

The McCabe one where she posted a selfie of herself crying reading the responses to her blog post. She has since deleted it, along with various posts and comments that did not agree with her world view.

Also has a picture of her, wearing a 'repeal' tee shirt, whilst holding a baby...

Yeah, totally wrong message being sent there.

Wibbs

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wibbs- purient nonsense.

How is it "prurient"?

Its not just me and my personal experience. Time and time again we see feminists, indeed any woman that dares to have an opinion, shouted down. Lon - shouted down, the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist- shouted down. One would wonder why some men are so afraid of women, that they don't let them have an opinion.

As has been repeatedly pointed out to you and seems to require pointing out to the people you mention is that debate is not a one way street. This seems to come as a shock. This goes double when someone forwards an opinion that seems at odds with most people's experience and understanding of the culture and comes without evidence beyond "just believe women"(when it suits of course).

Get over the fear.

I have no idea where this fear stuff is coming from.

An Irish man said it.

So? Irish men and women say lots of things. We don't have to agree, or avoid debate, just because it clashes with your ideology and worldview. The plain fact is that this ideology and worldview seems to crumble like a butterfly's wing at the slightest touch of debate. No wonder it seeks to hold the floor and smother debate. Just like any extremist group's worldview. It's a near given with such views of all stripes.

As LL said earlier and sums this up:

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You're entitled to have an opinion. You're entitled to express that opinion. You're not entitled to have that opinion accepted without challenge.

If you want an echo chamber then fine. It's a free society. However don't then call foul when you can't control an open forum for debate.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So if I dont reply to you (posters) get over it! Its like toddlers demanding attention. Me! Me! Me!

Irony all over the floor.

Omackeral wrote: »

Pull the other one midlandsmissus and stop perpetuating victim culture, because that's what exists more than anything else.

Indeed. It makes a crust for those who professionally perpetuate it and there are enough takers too, because it's simply easier to be a victim.

Glenster wrote: »

Wahhhh people with willies have it worse!

Wahhhh people without willies have it worse!

-This thread.

True enough. Its why the MRA's often give me a pain. Or guys going on about how they had women grab their arse in a club. Get over yourself FFS. Pointing out issues is one thing, whinging about them, or flipping out when others disagree quite another. I would say though that the "Wahhhh people without willies have it worse!" polarity proponents have a far freer ride in the society and the media and have more chance of influencing politics and how the rest of us live. That's a problem.

TheDavester wrote: »

Ian o docherty was critisced by me and a few here for his twitter meltdown a few pages back

Ditto. His outburst was that of a petulant child and made him come across as a overly emotional and aggressive twit. And I would have found agreement with some of his points in the past, but I call nonsense when I see it. See how that works Twitter "feminists"?

darkdubh

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Omackeral as you can see I have been offline for an hour. Unless you know of a superhuman device that enables me to reply to five people at once, dont be so presumptuous.
Also, I work, and sometimes I have to go to my real life.
So if I dont reply to you (posters) get over it! Its like toddlers demanding attention. Me! Me! Me!

Whats with the personal insults?

[Deleted User]

darkdubh wrote: »

Whats with the personal insults?

Last sting of a dying wasp.

jameorahiely

midlandsmissus wrote: »

And yet, why do we never see a thread on here started by a woman, poking at a man who stands up for mans rights, and the thread is filled with hundreds of women calling him 'crazy, a lunatic, a narcissist, attention seeker'.
Because we let men have opinions freely.

Why the aggression? Why the fear?

You must have missed the MRA protesting at the rose of tralee thread...

RabbleRouser2k

jameorahiely wrote: »

You must have missed the MRA protesting at the rose of tralee thread...

Who was, rightfully, mocked and derided. The 'fathers for justice' movement has gone about things ALL the wrong way-dressing as superheros is naff. Wanting dad's rights-I agree with, I think parents need to be as involved as possible with their kids lives. And if moms were being treated like crud regarding visitation rights and access to kids, I would also be calling for better rights. But dressing as superheros, invading the stage, shouting out crazy slogans (much like Femen do) that's not doing anyone any help. Far from it.

Also, this made me chuckle, somewhat-LoN and co are going crazy over the fact that this recent poll shows many people in Ireland have a different opinion to them regarding abortion and the 8th amendment. As in that it is' shades of grey, rather than Black and white regarding abortion.

Yeah, hilarious. (Have to re-iterate I am pro-choice, but pro democracy too. So if people vote against a certain thing, then that is their right. And if it is the majority, well, them's the breaks.)

http://www.thejournal.ie/abortion-poll-2-3268035-Mar2017/

red ears

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Omackeral as you can see I have been offline for an hour. Unless you know of a superhuman device that enables me to reply to five people at once, dont be so presumptuous.
Also, I work, and sometimes I have to go to my real life.
So if I dont reply to you (posters) get over it! Its like toddlers demanding attention. Me! Me! Me!

A hopeless response to the question omackeral asked you.

[Deleted User]

red ears wrote: »

A hopeless response to the question omackeral asked you.

I've come to expect nothing less from people of this ilk. You ask a simple question backed up with logic and they don't like it, so they have a go at you for demanding attention (seriously she said that :pac:) and side step the question. They're not interested in actual debate or discussion.

Don't Chute!

midlandsmissus wrote: »

There are no words to describe how nonsensical your post is. Why are you so terrified of letting a woman talk?
Do you have so little self identity, that you have to not let women express there opinions, because it makes you afraid?

I'm afraid of women having an opinion? Well I'm married to a woman who is FAR more intelligent than I am. She also has a much better far better paid job than I have so could you explain that one to me? She also thinks the likes of you and LoN et al are an absolute embarrassment. Oh and she's from Sweden too which well known for its gender equality.

Vela

midlandsmissus wrote: »

And yet, why do we never see a thread on here started by a woman, poking at a man who stands up for mans rights, and the thread is filled with hundreds of women calling him 'crazy, a lunatic, a narcissist, attention seeker'.
Because we let men have opinions freely.

Why the aggression? Why the fear?

I see no fear or aggression here. I see a healthy debate.

I agree that there are plenty of men who are complete narcissists - hell, I've dated one or two. But, there are plenty of women who are just as narcissistic and irrational too.

I haven't posted yet in this thread, but I've noticed your comments as being particularly defensive and without any real merit. I'm not saying that to upset you, but I'm pointing it out because you're accusing 'all men' of a number of things here and you're not backing any of it up with anything other than 'I'm a feminist'.

I believe that feminism should be about equality. But somewhere along the line, it got mutated into this bullsh1t that you see flying around social media these days - with 18 year old college students jumping on the bandwagon because they did a class on women's rights. We should be teaching young women how to be confident and assertive, and we should be educating them about true feminism and the importance of equal rights. We shouldn't be teaching them how to hate men or to feel 'lesser than'. Which, ironically, is what this new age feminism does - it teaches women that they're more vulnerable than men and it encourages them to victimise themselves. That isn't empowerment. It's actually making the gender gap even wider rather than closing it.

And before you say it. Yes, I do understand rape culture. Yes, I have experienced what it's like to be in completely powerless position with a man. Quite literally. But I can have those experiences without tarring every man out there with the same brush and going on a man-bashing bender. Why can I do that? Because it's the fcuking rational way to live. Your comments here, are not very rational. You're tearing people down just for disagreeing with you. Why? No-one is gunning for you. It isn't personal. It's simply a case of differing opinions. You offer yours and someone else gets to offer theirs - that's how it works.

I know how easy it is to get defensive when you see comments that 'feel' like they're personally directed at you, I've felt that way before, but I don't think anyone here has purposely tried to antagonise you.

Is there a rape culture in Ireland? I don't think so. Many men could do with being better educated on the issue. I've encountered men who really don't have any understanding of what an assault does to a woman, and there are a lot of those men out there. Too many. Sometimes that's a genuine lack of understanding, and sometimes it's because they're complete and utter narcissists who have no desire to understand. That's disappointing and disturbing, and it needs to change. But to call it 'rape culture' and put Ireland on the level with the likes of India is a massive leap.

I personally don't classify a man being an asshole to me, or a 'howya love' at a bar as rape culture, which is what people like LON would lead us to believe. And those women are becoming more of a threat to other women than men ever will be.

ivytwine

^^ excellent post.

I'd like to point out that there are also women who don't understand what sexual assault can do to a person, especially a child. I've unfortunately met some.

Humria

Firstly, I haven't seen the rape culture documentary.

I saw this thread earlier and some of views expressed about feminism struck me as being very different to my own. For me, feminism is about tackling our biases about gender. I want to emphasis OUR biases about gender. Both women and men have positive and negative beliefs about both genders. This need not be a competition. You can argue that feminism has actually benefited men too. I'm sure other people can think of better examples for this but one is the role that father's have in today's society. I think we see the importance of father's role far more then we did 20 or 30 years ago. Father's are far more hands on and are more than just providers. It seems to be far more acceptable for men to be affectionate with their friends, to care about their appearance and are encouraged more to talk about their feelings. Of course there is room for improvement but there are differences. It seems to be by giving women more freedom to work and progress in their careers (the more traditionally male environment) it has become more acceptable for men to become involved in the home (the more traditionally female environment).

There are still ways in which WE, unconsciously, treat men and women differently.

Female doctors are interrupted more than male doctors: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11456245

In mixed groups men speak more then women (75% vs 25% in this particular study) and have more influence on the conversation: http://www.bu.edu/wgs/files/2014/12/Karpowitz-et-al.-2012.pdf

In this study women but not men, were negatively viewed for speaking more than other: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0001839212439994

Female politicians are seen are penalised for seeming "power-seeking" while males politicians are not : http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/price-power-power-seeking-and-backlash-against-female-politicians

As this is research, I'm sure are are other studies that contradict them. I'm only using them as a pint to illustrate that we (both men and women) can treat the sexes differently, and unfairly. I'm sure are times that men are discriminated against too, it's just harder to find the research (which in itself is a disadvantage).

The point is that we have to know what are biases are before we can change them, and doing this is an advantage for both sexes.

On regards the rape culture thing, it's a bit of a loaded term really. I don't accept the argument that because there is far more rape in African countries that it's not a problem here. Our health system is much better too but that doesn't mean we all think it's great. Obviously a very small proportion of men are rapists and men can also be victims of rape. Again, I would argue that it's about OUR beliefs about rape. Often, women can be harsher critics of other women than men can.

It's cases like this that make me think that we still have a ways in how we think about rape:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

I actually think the main problem is with the judicial system. Our justice system makes defendants witnesses in their own trials. It's not just a problem in rape cases. A male acquaintance of mine was attacked in a nightclub and sustained some really bad injuries. The case went to trail and he said the experience was really traumatic. He said it felt like he was on trail. The prosecution tried to destroy his character and reputation. So it's not limited to rape victims but it does contribute towards the lack of prosecutions.

So on a different point. I want you to try picture something for me. Imagine a girl walking home at after a night out. She gets attacked and raped. Is there a part of you thinking that she shouldn't have been walking home by herself? I know there is a part of me that does. Now, picture a man walking home by himself after a night out. He get attacked and beaten up. Do you blame him for walking home alone or do you think he was just really unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? I know I think about them differently, even if I'm annoyed that I do it. But I'm aware of it, that's the point.

As a women I feel like I constantly have to think about my safety. I was really restless last night and would loved to have gone for a run to relax. I didn't though because it was late and I remembered the story of a women who was attacked in the area while out running in the dark. If I go out for a night out I have to plan my return home well in advance. Who will I be with, where do they live, how far is it to the taxi, am I safe in the taxi? I think of stories of women in fake taxis who were abducted and raped. I think women get frustrated that some men don't understand this because they take their safety for granted.

I know there are some major disadvantages about being male too. The high rate of suicide among young men and custody of/access to children in case of separation or divorce children are two I can think of off the top of my head. We can recognise the difficulties for each sex without diminishing the experience of the other.

EDIT: Excuses the typos. I'm normally bad at finding them but even worse on a Friday evening.

The J Stands for Jay

midlandsmissus wrote: »

There are no words to describe how nonsensical your post is. Why are you so terrified of letting a woman talk?

They want you to talk.

Wibbs

Humria wrote: »

On regards the rape culture thing, it's a bit of a loaded term really.

More than bit loaded, it's a hysterical nonsense when applied to Ireland and Western cultures in general.

I don't accept the argument that because there is far more rape in African countries that it's not a problem here.

We have a very low rate of murder here compared I dunno Syria. One quite simply can't equate the two. This goes for "rape culture".

It's cases like this that make me think that we still have a ways in how we think about rape:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

Not this one trotted out again. That was far more to do with small town parish pump idiocy aimed at an "outsider" than it was about rape. If the same guy had beaten a traveler to a pulp I'd bet he'd have got similar support. Oh and when this case is trotted out, yet again, the part that is almost always ignored is the huge groundswell of countrywide support of that woman and the universal disgust and condemnation at how those ignorant muppets acted. And as has been noted by a prison officer on this thread, that rapist will have to kept apart from the main prison population because rapists are held in such high contempt that his safety would be at serious risk. Now pray tell me, how does this equate to an Irish "rape culture". Loaded indeed.

So, I want you to try picture something for me. Imagine a girl walking home at after a night out. She gets attacked and raped. Is there a part of you thinking that she shouldn't have been walking home by herself? I know there is a part of me that does.

Not in my thinking I'm afraid.

Now, picture a mean walking home by himself after a night out. He get attacked and beaten up. Do you blame him for walking home alone or do you think he was just really unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? I know I think about them different, even if I'm annoyed that I do it.

Again and only speaking for myself I would equate both in roughly the same way, namely really unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time* and both would have my sympathy.

As a women I feel like I constantly have to think about my safety. I was really restless last night and would loved to have gone for a walk to relax. I didn't though because it was late and I remembered the story of a women who was attacked in the area while out running in the dark. If I go out at night, I have to plan my return home well in advance. Who will I be with, where do they live, how far is it to the taxi, am I safe in the taxi? I think of stories of women in fake taxis who were abducted and raped.

Or - and since we're sharing our inner thoughts I have to put it out there TBH - some women, or more women are more paranoid outa the box on this score? You say you have to think about your safety? When the indisputable fact is me as a man is far more likely to be assaulted by random strangers. I have had a few attempts and a couple that connected too, yet I don't then go into full defensive mode. Maybe around the time soon after, but I don't live my life that way.

I agree that it's a good idea to be wary of threats.

I think women get frustrated that some men don't understand this because they take their safety for granted.

Yet you seem to completely ignore the massively skewed risk for men, men who don't go about in a near permanent state of fear. For fun visit any major city casualty dept any day of the week in the evening. Extra bonus for weekend nights. And you will be near guaranteed to see a queue of men with the heads thumped off them. If a woman gets a savage beating it is pretty likely to hit the media, yet ask any of the hospital staff the reality on the ground.

So yeah, feminism isn't always the "man hating" fanaticism that's it's sometimes portrayed to be. The majority of us just want a better society for both sexes. I do identify as a feminist because it's really the only movement that seems to aim to create real change in how we treat each other based on gender.

pretty much entirely on feminism's terms of reference. Its akin to a politic and philosophy based on the conundrum of toilet seat up, or down. It's a man's role to make the environment better for women. Eh, you're supposed to be an adult, put the damn seat down yourself, or god forbid raise it for a man.

It's far more about what the men must do to fit feminism's/a particular section of women's view on things. Masculinity is regular seen and described as "toxic". And it is almost always men's "fault", women are almost always faultless. Even when women disagree with the narrative, it's usually down to them not supporting their "sisters" and absorbing the culture of the "patriarchy". Men's much higher risk of suicide - Patriarchy. Men dying younger - Patriarchy. Men falling behind in education - Patriarchy. Divorce bias and access to children - Patriarchy. Yet when women for example receive far softer sentencing in courts, no mention of the P word and this is often celebrated by feminists. Some of whom have publicly called for even softer sentencing. I've heard all these arguments before. And more and more, more of us, men and women are asking questions about that and often when answers are forthcoming calling shenanigans.

*if the guy chose to walk home drunk as a lord through a well known dodgy area, I'd still have sympathy and his attackers would still be scum, but I would think "what was he thinking?".

Wibbs

Humria wrote: »

I take your point about the risk of unprovoked assaults. I'm not aware of the statistics.

I'm not surprised TBH, like I say bias goes both ways and ignorance of bias does too.

My point was more about blame than risk. Taking your point, that men are more likely to be assaulted.

OK...

Should men be taking more risks to ensure their safety?

I presume you mean precautions?

If they are getting attacked when they are drunk, would they be less likely to be attacked if they were sober?

Yes. Drunkenness in both attacker and attacked is a pretty common factor, if not the commonest.

If so, are they more to blame if they get attacked when they are drunk because maybe if they were sober they would have seen to drunk aggressive guy looking for a fight?

Simplistic blame is for binary thinkers, however personal responsibility comes into it as far as I'm concerned. If being drop down drunk increases one's risk of being beaten up, then it would be prudent to take precautions and avoid getting drop down drunk in public. If some areas are more likely to be violent, then it would be prudent to take precautions and avoid them. Mark me well, precautions or not, this does not excuse any attacker. They remain violent scum the second they chose attack(and scum will always be with us*), but one can take reasonable precautions. Not live in constant fear though. But the answer you're looking for is if a guy is off his head and spouting guff and gets attacked by scum, then he is still a victim, but partially a victim of his own lack of personal responsibility. This goes triple if a man is getting into regular fights of a night out because he's drop down drunk. Any repeated mistake starts to look like a choice.

*that's another thing I notice with feminism. The tendency towards the notion of a perfect world and a blind spot to the realities, only if we could change it by some sort of social engineering(and a complete dismissal of some aspects of inbuilt human nature). Common in other philosophies dreamt up in the 60's and 70's. The nurture notion, the humans as black slates to be moulded to this order.

mzungu

Humria wrote: »

On regards the rape culture thing, it's a bit of a loaded term really. I don't accept the argument that because there is far more rape in African countries that it's not a problem here. Our health system is much better too but that doesn't mean we all think it's great. Obviously a very small proportion of men are rapists and men can also be victims of rape. Again, I would argue that it's about OUR beliefs about rape. Often, women can be harsher critics of other women than men can.

That was not the argument. The argument was that places like the DRC and Ethiopia would be examples of countries where rape is normalised and accepted as a part of life in those societies. Ireland is nothing like those countries.

That said, nobody would deny there is a serious problem with rape in Ireland. But that does not make it a "culture", no matter how much some people wish to say otherwise.

Humria wrote: »

It's cases like this that make me think that we still have a ways in how we think about rape:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

Not too sound glib, but the amount of dining out that has been done on that particular incident would be enough to feed a small third world nation. There was uproar about that at the time, and rightly so. Whomever shook his hand should hang their heads in shame.

Humria wrote: »

I actually think the main problem is with the judicial system. Our justice system makes defendants witnesses in their own trials. It's not just a problem in rape cases. A male acquaintance of mine was attacked in a nightclub and sustained some really bad injuries. The case went to trail and he said the experience was really traumatic. He said it felt like he was on trail. The prosecution tried to destroy his character and reputation. So it's not limited to rape victims but it does contribute towards the lack of prosecutions.

On this I agree, to a point. Need to crack down on bail for violent offenders, lenient sentences, getting time off for "good behaviour" etc. Also it seems there is not much going on as regards rehabilitation while they are behind bars, stuff like that needs to be looked at. In general, things need to change and get a hell of a lot tougher. Regarding the rest of your point, that would be how the judicial system works, it needs to be that robust so they can be sure of making the right decision. It is not pretty, but it is the lesser of two evils.

Humria wrote: »

So on a different point. I want you to try picture something for me. Imagine a girl walking home at after a night out. She gets attacked and raped. Is there a part of you thinking that she shouldn't have been walking home by herself? I know there is a part of me that does. Now, picture a man walking home by himself after a night out. He get attacked and beaten up. Do you blame him for walking home alone or do you think he was just really unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? I know I think about them differently, even if I'm annoyed that I do it. But I'm aware of it, that's the point.

I always wonder to myself what thug has attacked an innocent punters on their way home. Quickly followed by the hope that the Five-O will do the needful and take whomever it was off the streets. The only person responsible is the perpetrator.

Also, statistically speaking, there is a greater risk that the man will get the crap beaten out of him on the street. whilst women are more likely to be attacked in their own home or by a partner.

We can all take steps to protect ourselves. Not straying in harms way needlessly is always a good start (dodgy areas after dark etc). People who attack people are scumbags and will do it no matter what. Not much we can do to stop them. Except take the small but necessary precautions to minimise risk. After that things are out of our hands.

Humria wrote: »

As a women I feel like I constantly have to think about my safety. I was really restless last night and would loved to have gone for a run to relax. I didn't though because it was late and I remembered the story of a women who was attacked in the area while out running in the dark.

FWIW I don't go out late on my own either.

Humria wrote: »

If I go out for a night out I have to plan my return home well in advance. Who will I be with, where do they live, how far is it to the taxi, am I safe in the taxi? I think of stories of women in fake taxis who were abducted and raped.

I haven't heard of those cases, can I get a link to the newspaper articles on that please?

Regarding taxis in general, your best bet is to always go with a reputable company with a good reputation. That's what everybody I know does, both men and women. You can be assured that you will be safe doing things that way.

Humria wrote: »

I think women get frustrated that some men don't understand this because they take their safety for granted.

I don't take my safety for granted. Far from it. And the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is a higher chance that of a man getting attacked than you. However, one can't live their life under constant fear of attack.

Humria

Wibbs wrote: »

. We have a very low rate of murder here compared I dunno Syria. One quite simply can't equate the two. This goes for "rape culture"

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Are you saying you can't compare two countries or rape culture and health care?

Wibbs wrote: »

Not this one trotted out again. That was far more to do with small town parish pump idiocy aimed at an "outsider" than it was about rape. If the same guy had beaten a traveler to a pulp I'd bet he'd have got similar support. Oh and when this case is trotted out, yet again, the part that is almost always ignored is the huge groundswell of countrywide support of that woman and the universal disgust and condemnation at how those ignorant muppets acted. And as has been noted by a prison officer on this thread, that rapist will have to kept apart from the main prison population because rapists are held in such high contempt that his safety would be at serious risk. Now pray tell me, how does this equate to an Irish "rape culture". Loaded indeed

Look, you're right about the words, they're wrong. I don't want to imply we have a culture with particularly high instances of rape. It's a crime with a 10% -20% report rate 18% according to the Rape Crisis Centre). Does that not seem like there is something wrong? We have other difficulties in this country but that doesn't mean that we don't need to look at what's going on there.

I think you're probably right, if he assaulted a traveller he may have got similar support. I take your point about the particulars of the case.

It's great the he was condemned in public but that doesn't change what actually happened. The girls sat there and saw them all go and shake his hand. The public may condemn something but it's how people are treated that matters.

Wibbs wrote: »

.Not in my thinking I'm afraid. Again and only speaking for myself I would equate both in roughly the same way, namely really unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time* and both would have my sympathy.

You are obviously open minded. I've had discussions with people who would treat them differently

Wibbs wrote: »

.Or - and since we're sharing our inner thoughts I have to put it out there TBH - some women, or more women are more paranoid outa the box on this score? You say you have to think about your safety? When the indisputable fact is me as a man is far more likely to be assaulted by random strangers. I have had a few attempts and a couple that connected too, yet I don't then go into full defensive mode. Maybe around the time soon after, but I don't live my life that way

Wary is one thing, being paranoid to the point where it is affecting one's life is the near definition of a personal problem. As I said, maybe more women than men are naturally more anxious. It certainly seems that way when one considers the far higher risk men take when they go out.

Yet you seem to completely ignore the massively skewed risk for men, men who don't go about in a near permanent state of fear. For fun visit any major city casualty dept any day of the week in the evening. Extra bonus for weekend nights. And you will be near guaranteed to see a queue of men with the heads thumped off them. If a woman gets a savage beating it is pretty likely to hit the media, yet ask any of the hospital staff the reality on the ground. [/QUOTE]

I'm guessing you're implying I'm paranoid which is a bit unfair. For a lot of women that fear is breed into us, that we have to look after ourselves. A lot by our parents and society. We are all a product of our environment and our conditioning. There is a lot of literature about how men and women are treated differently from birth. I can look it up from you if you like. There's actually a garda advert to that effect at the moment but I can't find it. Maybe someone else can? It's like got your phone, got your lippy, how are you getting home tonight? An ad aimed at women basically saying that we need to make sure we can get home safe. You may think the fear is paranoid but it's not being created out of thin air, it's a message women are given.

Wibbs wrote: »

pretty much entirely on feminism's terms of reference. Its akin to a politic and philosophy based on the conundrum of toilet seat up, or down. It's a man's role to make the environment better for women. Eh, you're supposed to be an adult, put the damn seat down yourself, or god forbid raise it for a man.

It's far more about what the men must do to fit feminism's/a particular section of women's view on things. Masculinity is regular seen and described as "toxic". And it is almost always men's "fault", women are almost always faultless. Even when women disagree with the narrative, it's usually down to them not supporting their "sisters" and absorbing the culture of the "patriarchy". Men's much higher risk of suicide - Patriarchy. Men dying younger - Patriarchy. Men falling behind in education - Patriarchy. Divorce bias and access to children - Patriarchy. Yet when women for example receive far softer sentencing in courts, no mention of the P word and this is often celebrated by feminists. Some of whom have publicly called for even softer sentencing. I've heard all these arguments before. And more and more, more of us, men and women are asking questions about that and often when answers are forthcoming calling shenanigans.

.

There is a certain brand of feminism that echos this but that doesn't mean it's the view of an entire spectrum. I've offered you another perspective on it and if you don't accept that, it's fine. I'm not defending the above because wrote a long post saying something very different.

Humria

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not surprised TBH, like I say bias goes both ways and ignorance of bias does too.

So...yeah, that was the entire point of my first post. We all have biases.

[QUOTE=Wibbs;102804252I presume you mean precautions? Yes. Drunkenness in both attacker and attacked is a pretty common factor, if not the commonest. Simplistic blame is for binary thinkers, however personal responsibility comes into it as far as I'm concerned. If being drop down drunk increases one's risk of being beaten up, then it would be prudent to take precautions and avoid getting drop down drunk in public. If some areas are more likely to be violent, then it would be prudent to take precautions and avoid them. Mark me well, precautions or not, this does not excuse any attacker. They remain violent scum the second they chose attack(and scum will always be with us*), but one can take reasonable precautions. Not live in constant fear though. But the answer you're looking for is if a guy is off his head and spouting guff and gets attacked by scum, then he is still a victim, but partially a victim of his own lack of personal responsibility. This goes triple if a man is getting into regular fights of a night out because he's drop down drunk. Any repeated mistake starts to look like a choice. [/QUOTE]

I actually agree with you. I was just making the point that some people treat it differently based on gender.

*that's another thing I notice with feminism. The tendency towards the notion of a perfect world and a blind spot to the realities, only if we could change it by some sort of social engineering(and a complete dismissal of some aspects of inbuilt human nature). Common in other philosophies dreamt up in the 60's and 70's. The nurture notion, the humans as black slates to be moulded to this order. [/QUOTE]

I'm not advocating that the world is perfect. It's never going to be. But we have to be aware of what the difficulties are to try and address them. Say positive discrimination. If you are black in America, positive discrimination goes nowhere near addressing the socio economic disadvantages of being black but it's better than nothing. I'm not comparing gender to race, just in case someone thinks I am just an example. I'm just saying that if we know what the biases are at least we can try address them. For example if we look at how courts favour mothers maybe we can put procedures in place to make it more difficult to discriminate against fathers.