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Bust Éireann

oppenheimer1

According to reports today, Bus Eireann has about 18 months left before it goes insolvent. The company lost 7m last year on top of accumulated losses for previous years.

What future does the company have? Looks like service cuts and forced redundancies are on the way at a minimum. Do you think they will sell off expressway?

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Bass Reeves

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

[

Am I missing something with this whole argument in 2015 BE received €33.7 million in subvention from the government but paid back €59 million to the government through taxes so that's a net return of €25.3 million back to the taxpayer, how is the taxpayer been ridden ragged ? The government are getting the €33.7 million back plus the €25.3 million back so the net cost to the government is €0, then again they will blow that money on another Eircode type scheme. I will ageee that there is inefficient work practices that need to be sorted.

Yes you are missing everything else these taxes pay for. Do these drivers children go to national, secondary and third level and get children allowances. Do there parents if they are over 66 not get the old age pension. Are these drivers excluded from the health service, as well for the two weeks on average sick leave per year do they claim sick benefit if entitled to it.

Yes eircom was a disgrace but then this is typical of quango planning just like BE. What you are giving is a crap argument . We all pay tax and I agree that a lot of that tax is wasted but that is no reason to waste more or not to try reforming the system. And if I remember right it was a labour minister that was in charge of that department at the time.

ted44

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Bus eireann is withdrawing services from those routes altogether. That's why the NTA are stepping in.

Your missing the point!!!#

Cookie_Monster

horseburger wrote: »

So, you want one private company, "a company" to operate all of Bus Éireann's services, "the exact same services"?

Would it not end up being just as expensive to run? Or quite possibly more expensive?

stop twisting my words to suit yourself, I in no way implied a single company to run every single route

ted44

ted44 wrote: »

Your missing the point!!!#

The NTA are bus eireann? Dublin bus? Irish rail!!!.
So when bus eireann goes insolvent!. OVER 9 million, and the department of transport can't cover up its shocking shortfall,
And a month down the road, Irish rail staff come looking for 21 percent. What happens then :-)

markpb

ted44 wrote: »

Bus eireann. Is a test case!.
Why did the NTA not step in and cover the Dublin city area, ? With private operations,
When Dublin bus went out on strike.

ted44 wrote: »

The NTA are bus eireann? Dublin bus? Irish rail!!!.
So when bus eireann goes insolvent!. OVER 9 million, and the department of transport can't cover up its shocking shortfall,
And a month down the road, Irish rail staff come looking for 21 percent. What happens then :-)

Is there any chance you could write what you're thinking instead of asking us to read between the lines, question marks and exclamation marks?

Shurimgreat

Time to curb the pay of what are effectively low skilled workers earning more pay and pension entitlements than most high skilled private sector workers.

The pay of state employees should reflect their skills, not the bargaining power of their unions.

end of the road

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Time to curb the pay of what are effectively low skilled workers earning more pay and pension entitlements than most high skilled private sector workers.

The pay of state employees should reflect their skills, not the bargaining power of their unions.

not time to curb the pay of people just because others can't get the pay. if one can't get good pay that is their problem and not those who can. the fact workers are low skilled yet earning decent pay is just tough.

oppenheimer1

Theres been no real activity on this story for the past few days, nothing of note since the strike was called.

It seems like a phoney war at the moment.

devnull

I've seen very little new over the past few days apart from the same things being argued over and over again round and round in circles without anything else really happening. It seems that nobody is blinking right now, apart from Bus Eireann management who are going ahead implementing route timetable changes.

The only other thing going on a false narrative from Sinn Fein who arguing that cuts on the X7, and X12 are leaving communities behind with no bus service, whilst simultaneously arguing the NTA are to blame for having too many services on the corridor when ironically a lot of the services serve places they claim won't be served.

They have made a huge deal of the Limerick cuts, despite the fact there is very little cuts there really and very little impact. The biggest irony was the comment I read about "removing the peak time 16:30 from Dublin Airport" this doesn't even serve anywhere else apart from Limerick and Anacotty, there is an all stops one half an hour before it.

marienbad

end of the road wrote: »

not time to curb the pay of people just because others can't get the pay. if one can't get good pay that is their problem and not those who can. the fact workers are low skilled yet earning decent pay is just tough.

The issue is how they achieve those pay levels and at whose expense .

Shurimgreat

Allow Bus Eireann go to the wall, like all inefficient businesses, state run or not.

Then put every route out to tender and award to the most competent and efficient private operator.

The important thing here is to remove the chokehold of unions, so we are not all held over a barrel everytime they want a payrise or refuse to give up their perks.

Shurimgreat

end of the road wrote: »

not time to curb the pay of people just because others can't get the pay. if one can't get good pay that is their problem and not those who can. the fact workers are low skilled yet earning decent pay is just tough.

Striking to get pay and perks way above what you are entitled to based on your skillset is essentially blackmail. Its the type of blackmail that has screwed the taxpayer for generations in this country.

Brendan Bendar

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Striking to get pay and perks way above what you are entitled to based on your skillset is essentially blackmail. Its the type of blackmail that has screwed the taxpayer for generations in this country.

Like I said earlier there are a number of tactics in operation here.

1. The unions are trying to peddle the view the the country will be reduced to a desert if the routes are cut, see the fliers posted earlier.

2. The rural TDs in the 'opposition ' ranks are trying to up the anti to be seen to be for the little man. They seem to have no problem advocating taxpayers money be shunted into a highly inefficient and badly run company.

3.The Unions are also ignoring the fact that core pay will not be touched,just the arcane work practices and conditions which have the company on the brink of insolvency.

4. The unions are very anxious to drag the Minister into this.
So far he seems to have the sense to remain away from the front lines.
They are also banking on support from DB and IE for this indefinite strike, an event not common nowadays.

There will be severe pressure from the vested interest groups and the freeloaders from the opposition benches and those who seem to have no interest in supporting the taxpayer but try to peddle their view with emotive words like 'downtrodden' 'get off your knees' rural disaster' kind of rhetoric which has no basis in reality.

I simply cannot comprehend that kind of mentality to be honest.

Mebuntu

They are also banking on support from DB and IE for this indefinite strike,

Any employee of DB and IE refusing to work while BE workers are on strike should be sacked. Refusal to work is a very serious matter and the BE dispute is none of their business.

Brendan Bendar

Mebuntu wrote: »

Any employee of DB and IE refusing to work while BE workers are on strike should be sacked. Refusal to work is a very serious matter and the BE dispute is none of their business.

Rest assured Meb the Unions will have those bases covered.

My opinion is that opting for an 'all out indefinite strike ' in BÈ by the Unions was indicative of the fact that they had IÈ and BAC on board.

To me it's like a win or bust punt, they have bet the house.

A lot depends on Minister Ross, and those of us who sled up and down the Fiddy every day to earn a crust to see that we are being set up to be ' ridden bareback' by the Transport Unions.

Wake up taxpayers!!

sofireland

IE confirmed to me they won't be honouring BE Leap Cards within the Dublin Zone, so not only am i paying for my annual pass, i've to fork out another €40 a week plus fuel for the 30 odd km each way trip to M3 Parkway.

tayto lover

end of the road wrote: »

not time to curb the pay of people just because others can't get the pay. if one can't get good pay that is their problem and not those who can. the fact workers are low skilled yet earning decent pay is just tough.

Indeed. They should suck it up if they haven't the balls to fight for better pay and conditions themselves. All they seem to do is whinge about what others are getting.

devnull

Friend of mine on the Dublin Bus home tonight heard two drivers talking at Parnell Square for a driver change discussing how many people are calling in sick on Monday 'so far'

Be prepared.

oppenheimer1

end of the road wrote: »

not time to curb the pay of people just because others can't get the pay. if one can't get good pay that is their problem and not those who can. the fact workers are low skilled yet earning decent pay is just tough.

Well that attitude should cut both ways shouldn't it. But no, you had the union's cribbing about "relativity" after the Luas dispute.

oppenheimer1

devnull wrote: »

Friend of mine on the Dublin Bus home tonight heard two drivers talking at Parnell Square for a driver change discussing how many people are calling in sick on Monday 'so far'

Be prepared.

Each and every worker that phones in sick should be made undergo an assessment by the company doctor and face sanction if found not to be ill.

Additionally, NBRU should be sued out of existence of this happens.

end of the road

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Allow Bus Eireann go to the wall, like all inefficient businesses, state run or not.

Then put every route out to tender and award to the most competent and efficient private operator.

The important thing here is to remove the chokehold of unions, so we are not all held over a barrel everytime they want a payrise or refuse to give up their perks.

no thanks, not let bus eireann go to the wall. this tax payer doesn't personally wish to pay for their routes to be put out to tender, especially when it is only wanted by someone because they are upset that they can't get good pay like the bus eireann drivers. there is no chokehold by unions, and i'm certainly not held over a barrel by them and never have been, dispite being a keen user of public transport for years. if you want good pay, then join a union. otherwise you can't complain that others are doing better then you.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Striking to get pay and perks way above what you are entitled to based on your skillset is essentially blackmail. Its the type of blackmail that has screwed the taxpayer for generations in this country.

they aren't striking for things way over what they are entitled to, as if they weren't entitled to what they earned they wouldn't have it. like i said if you can't get what they get that is your fault and your problem and not theirs. and no it isn't blackmail.

Mebuntu wrote: »

Any employee of DB and IE refusing to work while BE workers are on strike should be sacked. Refusal to work is a very serious matter and the BE dispute is none of their business.

to sack them for not crossing a picket would be against workers rights, it is against one's rights to be forced to cross a picket against their will. IE and DB won't be going out on strike anyway, unless there are issues with the pension down the line which would effect all the companies.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Each and every worker that phones in sick should be made undergo an assessment by the company doctor and face sanction if found not to be ill.

Additionally, NBRU should be sued out of existence of this happens.

to sue them out of existence would be a waste of money, as they could likely have a number of ways around the issue.
they could possibly refund the members and therefore have no money and cannot pay, and they could probably relaunch after a little bit and remove all liabilities of the former union. whatever would happen, the NBRU wouldn't be going anywhere.

oppenheimer1

end of the road wrote: »

to sue them out of existence would be a waste of money, as they could likely have a number of ways around the issue.
they could possibly refund the members and therefore have no money and cannot pay, and they could probably relaunch after a little bit and remove all liabilities of the former union. whatever would happen, the NBRU wouldn't be going anywhere.

Do you really think the courts wouldn't be wise to that? They would freeze their accounts and prevent funds being transferred out. If funds weren't available to meet the judgement then the trustees are on the hook. The members of the Union from other companies might not be so happy to see their funds sqandered for a lost cause.

It is true the workers could set up another union, but without any money in the bank for strike pay, they would be fairly weak.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

no thanks, not let bus eireann go to the wall. this tax payer doesn't personally wish to pay for their routes to be put out to tender, especially when it is only wanted by someone because they are upset that they can't get good pay like the bus eireann drivers. there is no chokehold by unions, and i'm certainly not held over a barrel by them and never have been, dispite being a keen user of public transport for years. if you want good pay, then join a union. otherwise you can't complain that others are doing better then you.

I believe that providing good public transport services is the most important thing. Ultimately who provides the service doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Right now they are paying for the equivalent 650 more staff members than the company feels it needs at the moment and the average pay is €45,000 at the driver grade. You are saying that private operators have the same level of fat and excess in them that BE has? Since you seem to suggest that the company is very efficient compared to private operators?

Bus Eireann said in a full costed and written report that there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day which equals the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone is a shocking statistic and must be addressed.

Essentially the company is saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they can save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is staggering.

Corca Baiscinn

I understand why it would be counter-productive for the Minister to go riding in on his white charger brandishing a chequebook but I'm curious re the veracity of his answers at the Oireachtas committee yesterday re the subsidy to BE. He claimed that the subsidy increased this year and last year by X% or X million euro. But does anybody know if that figure is an absolute increase or simply covers the increase in the numbers entitled to free travel? We keep being told of our rapidly ageing population so is the increased subsidy just taking account of that?
Also he keeps saying that the loss-making element is the commercial inter-city sector but is that not because of the pso obligation to stop at every hamlet between Sligo and Dublin say even on an "express" service

horseburger

devnull wrote: »

Nobody is threatening with making the company insolvent if it doesn't cut back on services. A company being insolvent is not something that somebody does to spite the other side or threatens to do to score a cheap point or a dig over the over side it's something that happens when a company performs financially in a way that it cannot meet it's obligations as a company. A way of avoiding this is reducing costs, which the unions prevent them doing.

The people in the unions and on the drivers side fail to grasp this, the company is in the mire, the company are not just calling their bluff that it is the case of using it as a tool to beat the staff with to push through reforms, it is true, and the sooner the drivers come out of cloud cuckoo land and start to realise that sooner or later it's going to be cuts or jobs, and with the route closures it's probably already heading towards the later.

Just reading back the thread.

You did not read my post.

I said:

"Bus Éireann is threatening that the company will be insolvent if it doesn't cut back on the services, that it has proposed discontinuing, which are the services to which I was referring".

I did not say that Bus Éireann threatened to make the company insolvent, if the proposed cutbacks were not implemented.

You implied that I said that Bus Éireann will make the company insolvent, if it doesn't implement the proposed cutbacks. I did not say that.

You implied I said something which I did not state, and started questioning me about insolvency. But I guess that was an attempt by you to divert the discussion.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102774131&postcount=869

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Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Friend of mine on the Dublin Bus home tonight heard two drivers talking at Parnell Square for a driver change discussing how many people are calling in sick on Monday 'so far'

Be prepared.

It isn't the first time Bus Eireann have gone on strike there have never DB or IR issues in the past. Apart from one time when DB and BE were both on strike at the same time. Unions scaremonger everytime a CIE company goes on strike saying that they will get the others involved. Nothing has ever happened.

devnull

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

I understand why it would be counter-productive for the Minister to go riding in on his white charger brandishing a chequebook but I'm curious re the veracity of his answers at the Oireachtas committee yesterday re the subsidy to BE. He claimed that the subsidy increased this year and last year by X% or X million euro. But does anybody know if that figure is an absolute increase or simply covers the increase in the numbers entitled to free travel?

Free travel is on top of subsidy, the figures that he is quoting are just cash subsidy, they don't include assets, vehicles, free travel scheme payments, capital investment by the government etc. Once you include all of these for 2016, the total taxpayer funding is around €100m. The unions of course, will not tell you this.

Subvention for these services by the NTA to Bus Éireann increased from €34m in 2014, to €40m in 2016. And that figure is likely to go up again in 2017, however the exact figure will not be known until the end of the year because payments are made throughout the year depending on levels of services.

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

Just reading back the thread.

You did not read my post.

I said:

"Bus Éireann is threatening that the company will be insolvent if it doesn't cut back on the services, that it has proposed discontinuing, which are the services to which I was referring".

I did not say that Bus Éireann threatened to make the company insolvent, if the proposed cutbacks were not implemented.

You implied that I said that Bus Éireann will make the company insolvent, if it doesn't implement the proposed cutbacks. I did not say that.

You implied I said something which I did not state, and started questioning me about insolvency. But I guess that was an attempt by you to divert the discussion.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102774131&postcount=869

Nobody can threaten that a company will be insolvent, it simply is when it cannot meet it's obligations that is the point I was making. Lets just agree to leave it at that.

Arthur Daley

We subsidise all sorts nowadays. Practically every farm in the country. Property developers, landlords, banks. It's the way this country has always worked.
So not sure why an example is being made of bus eireann. And why now.