Bust Éireann

devnull wrote: »

One question, do you have any connection to Sinn Fein or Imelda Munster? If you keep saying what she says all of the time, in every post it makes it look like you are her or someone connected to her and if you do have a conflict of interest you really should register it.

No - because the only people who think it will is the unions who are scaremongering people. No licensing authority has ever said that it would happen. That is the whole reason there is a Transport Regulation Act 2009 to prevent it. Why would a regulator be formed if the plan was to de-regulate? It makes no sense.

Just because someone says it in the Dail doesn't mean it's true. Bus Eireann's CASH subvention was increased from €33m in 2013 to €34m in 2014, to €40m in 2016. Whilst the subsidy was cut back in 2009, services were also cut back, so of course the fact is that they got less money, any contract works like that and it should as well since the payment is in return for services provided, less services = less money.

Also the other spin with this is that in most other European countries operators pay for their own vehicles to run the services. In Ireland that is not the case. Operators have vehicles bought for them as capital investment and of course the people who claim that Ireland subsidy is low forget the tens of millions of capital investment the country makes on their behalf of which otherwise the company would have to find the funds for itself.

BE got €50m of investment in new vehicles last year and Dublin Bus also got around €40m in capital investment as well in buses. Also the NTA does a lot of things which operators in Europe have to fund themselves, which takes some costs out of the business as well, so you need to look at the overall taxpayer contribution to those services, not just the cash subsidy since cash is only one part of the taxpayer contribution.

Interesting that when referring to their own pay they only quote basic pay but....

....when referring to the cuts they quote the overall cut from the take home pay.

Dishonest figures at the very best.

More scaremongering, I don't know of any bus driver who is on minimum wage with a reputable large company. This is meaningless rhetoric which has nothing to back it up and no foundation. I'm not quite sure where your posts are going, but you seem to be a mouthpiece for Munster, if you are her or are a serving TD, why not just come out and say it?

More meaningless words. Maybe there are extremely valid reasons for rejecting such plan. Maybe the demands that were made by the company were unrealistic and bad for the taxpayers, the traveling public and the people in this country. The one thing that Munster is very good at is speaking a lot of rhetoric and a lot of vague and misleading and spun statements without any real back-up to any of them

No. I have no connection to Imelda Munster, Robert Troy, or Thomas Pringle. It just so happens that they were the particular public representatives debating in the Dáil debate, on 31st January and the Joint Committee Meeting on 22nd February, to which I referred.

I could have also included part of Michael Fitzmaurice's contribution to the debate on the Dáil motion, moved by Robert Troy, on 31st January 2017,
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2017-01-31a.662
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-01-31a.634

Michael Fitzmaurice:

"Putting myself in the shoes of a private bus operator, I would not choose a route that was likely to see me losing money. Bus Éireann, on the other hand, is obliged to do the good, the bad and the in between. Private operators, meanwhile, will not even buy a bus unless they are sure of making money. That is the problem we are seeing across the country. In recent years, the National Transport Authority seems to have adopted a stance whereby it envisages privatising the entire bus service. As other speakers noted, in parts of rural Ireland there is absolutely no bus service. When it comes to the school transport service, we are fighting day in and day out to ensure people can access the service. Children are being told that even though their brother or sister went to a particular school, they cannot access transport to that school because of the new rules".

"It was alarming to hear Bus Éireann's acting CEO, Mr. Ray Hernan, speaking about insurance and the need for an efficient service. If changes are required, including in legislation, we need to make them. Everybody supports an efficiently run bus service but we cannot drop the hatchet on it. Since 2009, the public service obligation funding to the bus companies has reduced, even though some one third of citizens are now covered under the free travel scheme. No company can sustain that type of pressure. The Minister for Social Protection should be here today to deal with this aspect of the problem. The bus is pulling out of town and if the Government does not get on it, Ministers will be hiring another bus in the coming months for the purpose of canvassing around the country. That is what will happen if bus services are cut".

I thought it would be useful to include the quotations from the Dáil transcripts, in my recent posts, as reference points.

You seemed to question, in an earlier post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102743258&postcount=659, whether or not I had quoted, correctly, the comments made by Robert Troy and Imelda Munster on LMFM, with regard to what Anne Graham, CEO of The NTA, stated at the Joint Committee meeting. In response, I then included the relevant text from the transcript of the Joint Committee meeting on Wednesday 22nd February, of the exchanges between Imelda Munster, Robert Troy and Anne Graham - the meeting that both Robert Troy and Imelda Munster discussed on LMFM on Wednesday 23rd February.

horseburger wrote: »

No, no connection to Imelda Munster, or Robert Troy, it just so happens that they were the particular public representatives debating in the Oireachtas debates, on 31st January and 22nd February, to which I referred.

Sorry for asking, but the fact that nearly everything related to Transport that she has said has been posted in the last few pages I had to ask because it was increasingly looking like otherwise to me. All for a debate but just think if there are any vested interests they should be declared in the interests of everyone who is reading. It is appreciated though that you post links to back up the points you are making though because it provides for better debate!

ixoy

I'm curious as to how many Bus Eireann workers would prefer to face the reality and adapt to cuts as opposed to increasingly risk losing it all? I know the NRBU and SIPTU voted for strike action but are many having second thoughts? They can't all be that oblivious?
I know there are some who aren't caught up in the madness. They don't like it - why would they - but they do understand that something has to be done. What percentage they are is an unknown.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Strike on Monday.

Adios BE.

Still can't see it ending in any pay cuts, job losses or other real change at the company. And I'm still convinced the taxpayer will end up footing more of the bill.

I can see it going to the brink in government though with FF threatening to pull support of the minister doesn't produce the chequebook. Too many rural constituents will be looking for "dem up in Dublin" to cough up.

jimmycrackcorm

horseburger wrote:

In this item, in The Journal, Imelda Munster is quoted as saying "Whatever way you want to dress it up, this is the start of a privatisation plan".

Doesn't need to be if the workers just accepted that they are in no different a position than any other employee whose employer has to cut costs.

Aer Lingus workers had to accept the inevitable and the company transformed itself.

For once I'm glad Shane Ross is the transport minister who won't bail out BE.

If the strike continues, I think the NTA should move quickly and take the PSO off BE and offer it commercial operators who will provide the service that the taxpayers require and pay for.

n97 mini wrote: »

I can see it going to the brink in government though with FF threatening to pull support of the minister doesn't produce the chequebook.

And if they do, I'd hope the EU would throw the book at us!

Brendan Bendar

n97 mini wrote: »

Still can't see it ending in any pay cuts, job losses or other real change at the company. And I'm still convinced the taxpayer will end up footing more of the bill.

I can see it going to the brink in government though with FF threatening to pull support of the minister doesn't produce the chequebook. Too many rural constituents will be looking for "dem up in Dublin" to cough up.

You could very well be right.

The transport unions spotted a weakness and aided and abetted by the usual 'present at every picket' lot Coppinger, Murphy, Smith et al went for the jugular at Luas, and Dublin bus.

Buoyed up by some success there they went for the hat trick .

If they succeed in fleecing the taxpayer, IE will be next.

Time to put a halt to this and ignore those populist voices who will never have to implement anything but have no problem advocating the waste of taxpayers money.If they had their way Aer Lingus would still be charging €250 for a one-way to London

Time to cry stop here.

Time to move on.

Here are the measures that are to be implemented by management that the unions resist.

There is plenty of changes to be made and a few eye openers there as well since some of these things I am surprised were either in place, or in others were not in place already.

Issues covered by company letter of 16th January will continue to be applied
1. Non-essential spend will be identified and eliminated. This relates to non-payroll items and nothing is excluded.

2. Bus Hire; stricter controls have been put in place and the need for pre-authorisation will continue to apply.

3. Overtime; all unplanned and un-rostered overtime is banned. We will continue to drive down and eliminate such overtime.

4. Recruitment; approval is required in advance from CEO.

5. Annual leave; there is no entitlement to carry over annual leave and the company are stopping this practice. Staff who have un-used entitlements will be scheduled to take it all within the leave year ending March 2018.

6. Flexi-time; Staff have been communicated with and accommodation has taken place to agree fixed starting and finishing times to suit the individual and the department in question.

7. Driver’s hours of work are being averaged on a weekly basis over the duty rotations. This is in accordance with the current union agreement.

8. Spare driver utilisation is as per the current union agreement.

9. First-user check is a legal requirement and in line with current union agreements. Drivers are required to carry out the first user check.

10. Fuel efficiency; activation of Telematics to improve efficiencies and eco-driving systems will take place.

11. Absence management; current procedures continue. It should be noted that the level of absenteeism at approximately 7% is having a serious detrimental impact on costs.

Other cost saving and efficiency improvements
1. Duty efficiency – all duties will be reviewed to ensure maximum efficiency and compliance with relevant regulations, to include maximisation of driving time.

2. Roster efficiency – all rosters will be reviewed to ensure that all work is rostered in a way that meets the business needs, fair to all staff and compliance with relevant regulations.

3. DAWT - all rosters paid according to Daily Average Work Time rules.

4. Roadside bookings/breaks – Drivers will start, break, restart and finish at designated roadside locations to ensure minimum number of vehicles are used for service and duty efficiency is maximised (on-street changeovers).

5. Appropriate non-revenue travel time – All non-revenue generating paid travel time (walking, public transport and Driving) will be reviewed and adjusted to reflect average actual journey times.

6. Appropriate loading / recovery time – Loading time will be reviewed and adjusted to reflect average actual loading, to include recovery time.

7. Unpaid breaks – The current agreement of 2:45 will be fully implemented.

8. Average late running allowance – late running payment will be paid based on AVL data only.

9. Work rest day ban - No rest day working allocation to apply within 3 weeks of a sick day.

10. The existing national agreements supersede all local arrangements. Examples include;
a. Additional boarded OT outside of planned operation
b. Meal Allowance payments that don’t meet qualification criteria

11. Cessation of duty hours claim - payment for actual hours worked only.

12. Flexible spare planning and daily utilisation – All roster vacancies will be filled and spare levels for cover will be entirely at management discretion. .

13. Single spare cover panel – Should a panel of spare drivers be required the drivers will be available to cover all reasons of non-attendance. This panel will rotate to include early, middle and late requirements.

14. Out-based Operations (Spare Drivers) Bus Éireann has operations from out-based locations around the country. Drivers and vehicles are based at these locations (start and end depot). The majority of operations from these locations are part of Public Service Contract (PSO).

15. All Short term absences (up to 3 days) will be covered as heretofore with the attendant expenses allowances.

16. All absences of over 3 days will be covered with spare drivers from the area who have expressed an interest in working from the out-based location. No travel allowance or overnight expenses will be paid in respect of this work.

17. Where no spare driver has expressed an interest in working from the out-based location, the junior driver from the spare panel will be allocated the work. Overnight expenses will be paid for first and last day only.

18. The payment of a flat days pay in respect of the first rest day away from home depot will be discontinued.

19. Reclassification of the Under and Over 64km rule to one class, i.e. all locations

20. Elimination of the travel or Out-based Relief payments and replaced with Overnight payments. Overnight payment only to apply.

21. Payments for non-working rest-day overnights will be discontinued.

22. The payment of a flat days pay in respect of the first rest day away from home depot will be discontinued.

23. No driver out-based/overnight expenses for travel to out-based locations within 10km of his/her home, irrespective of operating base or period of cover.

24. Expenses for first and last day only when relieving any board in out-based locations – whether illness or leave relief.

25. Allocation of duties – All drivers will be required to work their rostered duties unless a change is approved by the local management

26. Subcontracting – The Company may on a short or longer term basis subcontract services in order to eliminate or avoid creation of inefficient vehicle or duty workings. To minimise commercial risk, the company will have the option of sub-contracting on existing or new services.

27. Part-time and Temporary drivers – Part-time and temporary drivers will form part of the weekly coverage of rosters. A minimum fixed hour working arrangement will be agreed in advance with PT/Temp drivers. Payment will be for revenue hours covered. The Company may on a short or longer term basis utilise part time or temporary staff to avoid creation of inefficient duty workings and/or for staff vacancies.

28. Driving Hours Recording - Compliance with all company policy and statutory requirements relating to digital and analogue tachograph recording system in use for all EU driving, non EU driving and other work.

29. Cleaning –cleaning of buses as required.

30. Fuelling - fuelling buses as required.

31. On-vehicles Systems - Use of all on-board IT systems including all new fleet technologies which would benefit the business.

32. SDA Review - Safe Driving Award Scheme to be reviewed but subject to compliance with Driver check, satisfactory attendance, driving hour’s regulations, eco driving/telematics performance.

33. Telematics & Eco Driving systems - All staff will fully cooperate with initiatives to help reduce waste and improve fuel efficiency.

34. AVL – All staff will fully cooperate with AVL and any other information technology which the company may require to include logon requirements, use AVL communication functions, activate customer announcements and report any technical problems.

35. Seat Reservation – All staff will cooperate fully with all administrative requirements of the seat reservation system and ensure customer satisfaction achieved in this regard.

36. Transfers - No movement or transfer of newly appointed staff to other group companies until Probationary Period (1 year or longer) is completed.

37. No automatic “Seniority right” for a staff member to be a successful applicant for vacancy in another group company. Suitability of staff member (Based on current file- Absenteeism, Accidents, Customer Complaints, Driver shorts etc.) to be reasonable grounds to refuse application
a. CMO Appointments - Standard Payment (Hours) agreed for drivers to attend C.M.O
appointments.
b. Inspectors

38. No automatic right for Inspector to be allocated rest day work / OT ahead of Acting Inspector

39. Acting Inspector panel will be fully utilised as the needs arise.

40. Inspectors who take up secondments to be paid the hours/conditions attached to the seconded work. No automatic right to maintain current earnings if earnings are reduced with secondment, e.g. RP Inspector covering schools

41. Acting Inspectors to be paid Inspector allowance per day of Acting up – No requirement to pay full weeks acting up allowance if only covering for a number of days.

42. Acting Inspectors can be utilised on half day driving/half day Inspector cover where requirement is for a few hours cover only.

43. Full flexibility to move inspectors from operating areas, rosters / duties in order to cover shortfall in other areas.

44. Full review of Inspectors rosters and rotations to take place in all sections.

45. Training allowance payment to be withdrawn

Training
47. Training will be delivered locally where possible, in order to reduce the need for staff to travel. This will be facilitated by increased use of technology.

48. Training of staff (including Drivers) to be carried out by any suitably qualified training Instructor (from any grade of staff)

49. Training of staff to be carried out by external resources where practical

50. All Training staff to co-operate and assist with the training of Private Operators who operate Road Passenger work on behalf of Bus Éireann.

Overtime/Allowances
52. No OT payment for training

53. No OT payments for staff attending meetings

54. School trips operated by RP drivers will be transferred to school transport.

55. If board working time varies between winter and summer it should be paid as per actual working time and not same pay all year round

Routes
The following routes will close on these dates
X7 Dublin - Clonmel: March 12th
21 Athlone - Westport: April 16th.
33 Dublin - Derry: May 28th

The number of daily services on Dublin- Limerick(X12), and Dublin – Galway(20/X20) will be reduced from March 12th
.
Any staff impacted by these announcements will be redeployed.

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Any company losing €1.9 a month deserves to go to the wall

Do you seriously expect the taxpayer to bankroll legacy conditions and ignore the fact that the transport industry has moved on from the 1985 and 1986 .

Would Aer Lingus still be viable if it didn't "see the light" and move into the 21st century?

Can't have way above industry norms of sick leave and absenteeism and expect the taxpayer to endorse that rubbish.

Time someone stood up for those who foot the bills and dump this rhetoric and cant.

Again, as you well know, I was referring to the report and item that detailed changes to bus and rail services in the UK, that were implemented in 1985, 1986, and then 1994 - 1997.

I suspect you are attempting to distract from the question I asked you, which was:

If Bus Éireann is let "go to the wall" - a move you are advocating - what type of transport service, for bus and rail users, would you put in its place, taking into consideration that the privatisation in the UK, that occurred in 1985, 1986 with bus services, and then 1994 - 1997, with rail services, has resulted in many negative consequences.

https://weownit.org.uk/reasons-against-privatisation

https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buses

https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/railways

http://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/120630_Rebuilding_Rail_Final_Report_print_version.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/21/why-nobody-complaining-bus-services-deregulation

Brendan Bendar

horseburger wrote: »

Again, as you well know, I was referring to the report and item that detailed changes to bus and rail services in the UK, that were implemented in 1985, 1986, and then 1994 - 1997.

I suspect you are attempting to distract from the question I asked you, which was:

If Bus Éireann is let "go to the wall" - a move you are advocating - what type of transport service, for bus and rail users, would you put in its place, taking into consideration that the privatisation in the UK, that occurred in 1985, 1986 with bus services, and then 1994 - 1997, with rail services, has resulted in many negative consequences.

https://weownit.org.uk/reasons-against-privatisation

https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buses

https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/railways

http://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/120630_Rebuilding_Rail_Final_Report_print_version.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/21/why-nobody-complaining-bus-services-deregulation

The only thing I am "advocating" is that changes are made in BE to arrest the catestrophic and fatally damaging losses which will result in a fatal cash deficit projected for May.

That's the only thing I am advocating.

Karsini wrote: »

And if they do, I'd hope the EU would throw the book at us!

The get of of jail card is flipping unprofitable Expressway routes over the fence into PSO routes. If I was a betting man this is where my money would be.

horseburger wrote: »

If Bus Éireann is let "go to the wall" - a move you are advocating - what type of transport service, for bus and rail users, would you put in its place, taking into consideration that the privatisation in the UK, that occurred in 1985, 1986 with bus services, and then 1994 - 1997, with rail services, has resulted in many negative consequences.

But, as mentioned above, we're not the same as the UK. We have a regulator. Putting PSO routes out to tender for private operators is perfectly OK with me. Zero regulation is not. Bus Éireann don't deserve a bailout at my expense.

n97 mini wrote: »

The get of of jail card is flipping unprofitable Expressway routes over the fence into PSO routes. If I was a betting man this is where my money would be.

I'm sure the private operators would have a case to make in that situation.

I'm not disagreeing with you by the way, it's very plausible but I'd hope it doesn't come to that.

PeadarCo

horseburger wrote:

Again, as you well know, I was referring to the report and item that detailed changes to bus and rail services in the UK, that were implemented in 1985, 1986, and then 1994 - 1997.

How similar is the current system under the NTA compared to what was done in the UK?

The current system in Ireland seems to working well. For socially necessary but uneconomical routes there's a public service subsidy. For profitable routes there's regulated competition that seems to result in a sustainable and innovative service.

The mistake Bus Eireann management have made and unions are still making is that they think/thought the bus network wouldn't work without the company. Personally I don't think most people care who provides the service providing its there and they can travel in a reasonable degree of comfort.

horseburger wrote: »

Again, as you well know, I was referring to the report and item that detailed changes to bus and rail services in the UK, that were implemented in 1985, 1986, and then 1994 - 1997.

The problem is a lot of your articles are not studies or views of independent people, they instead are people with a political agenda or politicial organisations. I wouldn't consider that weownit.org.uk as an independent voice in these matters, neither is other politically focused interest groups, they are opinions, not facts, just some peoples views.

I can put a list of links up that will show opinions to the opposite such as the MASSIVE growth in rail passengers in the UK and what wasn't happening before privatization But I don't because it only gives one side of the story and besides, I'm not sure what relevance to the debate what happened in the UK has because we do not have such a system and nobody proposed it.

If Bus Éireann is let "go to the wall" - a move you are advocating - what type of transport service, for bus and rail users, would you put in its place, taking into consideration that the privatisation in the UK, that occurred in 1985, 1986 with bus services, and then 1994 - 1997, with rail services, has resulted in many negative consequences.

I'm not sure the relevance of what you continue to post here, however whilst I accept that you have no connection with Imelda Munster, I am coming round to the idea that you have some political connection with some political party of interest group since a lot of what you say seems to bore out of political agenda rather than a desire to actually debate. about the topics at hand.

What happens in the UK and what is going on here has no real relevance since the system that happens in the UK has never been proposed here by anyone with any power, you seem to be giving the impression if BE ends we will left with a system like the UK that in your view has has failed, however there is nothing to back it up whatsoever, it just seems to be political posturing and scaremongering on your behalf.

If Bus Eireann goes to the wall that happens. The unions have a way out of it by agreeing to the cuts, if they don't agree to the cuts that can happen. The staff know that at the end of the day even though they are hoping that it will not get that far because the taxpayer will bail them out. At the end of the day the workers will decide the fate of the company, at the moment they are hoping for a bailout by a taxpayer which at this point at least is not forthcoming.

Karsini wrote: »

I'm sure the private operators would have a case to make in that situation.

I'm not disagreeing with you by the way, it's very plausible but I'd hope it doesn't come to that.

Compared to BE (unions) the private operators are fragmented and weak. They don't really have a voice. He who shouts loudest and all that...

Yourself isit

Why does anybody think that the EU is opposed to state funded transportation?

Yourself isit wrote: »

Why does anybody think that the EU is opposed to state funded transportation?

They're not opposed to state-funded transportation if done within the rules, but they are opposed to favouring one provider over another. Bailing out Bus Éireann would benefit their commercial operations over those of other operators and would be considered illegal state aid.

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

The only thing I am "advocating" is that changes are made in BE to arrest the catestrophic and fatally damaging losses which will result in a fatal cash deficit projected for May.

That's the only thing I am advocating.

You said that Bus Éireann should be "let" "go to the wall".

You said of, Bus Éireann:

"However bottom line, company is going bust, the unions won't budge, only one answer......let it go to the wall".

Here, in case you have forgotten, is the link to the message you wrote, and the text you wrote, at 6.32pm earlier today, Monday 27th February 2017, in which you also smart arsedly made a comment about me including text, in a message I had written, - text from discussion in a Dáil Joint Committee meeting - to which I had referred, in a previous post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102758576&postcount=724

"Hmm .......walls of text on this one, excellent discourse.

However bottom line, company is going bust, the unions won't budge, only one answer......let it go to the wall.

Don't waste taxpayers money.

No wall of text there."

devnull wrote: »

The problem is a lot of your articles are not studies or views of independent people, they instead are people with a political agenda or politicial organisations. I wouldn't consider that weownit.org.uk as an independent voice in these matters, neither is other politically focused interest groups, they are opinions, not facts, just some peoples views.

I can put a list of links up that will show opinions to the opposite such as the MASSIVE growth in rail passengers in the UK and what wasn't happening before privatization But I don't because it only gives one side of the story and besides, I'm not sure what relevance to the debate what happened in the UK has because we do not have such a system and nobody proposed it.

I'm not sure the relevance of what you continue to post here, however whilst I accept that you have no connection with Imelda Munster, I am coming round to the idea that you have some political connection with some political party of interest group since a lot of what you say seems to bore out of political agenda rather than a desire to actually debate. about the topics at hand.

What happens in the UK and what is going on here has no real relevance since the system that happens in the UK has never been proposed here by anyone with any power, you seem to be giving the impression if BE ends we will left with a system like the UK that in your view has has failed, however there is nothing to back it up whatsoever, it just seems to be political posturing and scaremongering on your behalf.

If Bus Eireann goes to the wall that happens. The unions have a way out of it by agreeing to the cuts, if they don't agree to the cuts that can happen. The staff know that at the end of the day even though they are hoping that it will not get that far because the taxpayer will bail them out. At the end of the day the workers will decide the fate of the company, at the moment they are hoping for a bailout by a taxpayer which at this point at least is not forthcoming.

You are incorrect in your thinking, that I am involved in a political party or interest group.

I gave the example of the reports about the privatisation of services in the UK, as they indicate that removing its public transport services didn't work out that well.

The report that I included in the links, indicated, that after privatization, parts of the UK, ended up with a lessening of services.

A lessening of services is what might result in Ireland. What sort of service is going to replace the number X3/33 Derry Dublin Route? Will it cover the various intermediate stops?

http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1470909505-33.pdf

As an example, if the X3/33 Dublin Derry bus is ended, will Bus Éireann have to start a separate Dublin - Monaghan service to and from Dublin City Centre, and also have this bus serve Dublin Airport, considering that many passengers for Monaghan would take either the 32 Letterkenny or X3/33 Derry Bus to Monaghan from Bus Aras or Dublin Airport?

Bus Éireann used to run a 177 bus between Monaghan and Dublin but that ended a few years ago.

It comes back to what resulted from the discussion in the Oireachtas Joint Committee meeting on 22nd February. There was no certainty, from the statements by the NTA spokesperson CEO Anne Graham, that services that may be brought in to replace services like the Derry Dublin service, will continue to serve all the same stops previously covered.

This item in the Derry Journal includes a quote from a Bus Éireann spokesperson that the 32 Letterkenny Dublin service could be used as an alternative for intermediate stops at Strabane and Omagh, but then that puts more pressure on the 32 service and more chance of buses being full before they pass intermediate towns, for example if you were waiting at the Ardee bypass stop looking to go to either Dublin or Letterkenny, you have no real way of knowing if there is space for you.

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/transport/bus-eireann-plan-to-scrap-derry-to-dublin-service-1-7837612

http://www.derryjournal.com/news/bus-eireann-to-slash-derry-dublin-route-on-may-28-1-7841980

It also mentions the Ulsterbus Dublin Derry X4 service, as a possible alternative for passengers at intermediate stops, but as a comparison, the last X4 from Derry to Dublin is at 5.30pm and the next X4 is at 6am,

The last X3/33 Bus Éireann / Translink Ulsterbus bus from Derry to Dublin is at midnight and then the next is at 4.15am.

If the X3/33 bus goes, there will be less connections available to Dublin Airport for anyone between Derry and Dublin Airport.

I understand what you are saying about how the same can be argued about whether or not Bus Éireann would cover routes currently operated by private coaches, but if Bus Éireann are deciding to end a Dublin Derry Expressway service, what sort of service would take its place?

http://journeyplanner.translink.co.uk/ext_webpdf_desk/TTB/20170220-145146/nir/EFA01__0700X4y15_TP.pdf

http://buseireann.ie/timetables/1470909505-33.pdf

road_high

Bottom line, what's goin to actually happen BE? In my naivety before I'd have read stuff here and elsewhere I'd have thought them to be a pretty good semi state company and service. Never had an issue the odd time I use them, nice buses and courteous drivers. No issue with the punctuality either.
Will it come to it Expressway will go and private operators will pick over the carcass of routes left behind and step in to replace what's viable in the market?

gbob

n97 mini wrote: »

The get of of jail card is flipping unprofitable Expressway routes over the fence into PSO routes. If I was a betting man this is where my money would be.

I still think this is all a deliberate plan by the Gov/NTA/CIE to force BE staff to the gate so they can blame unions for collapsing public transport, Expressway will be folded, NTA decides to bring the majority of BE routes under the PSO and puts them out to tender, BE wins majority of tenders (with funding) and hires new drivers on lower rates, privates get some tenders and everybody wins. NTA comes out smelling of roses.

Remember, Expressway was only created as a brand 2 yrs ago and has apparently had three rescue attempts failed in that time.. Expressway was created to fail !

Bus Eireann as a brand lives on unscathed.

end of the road

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So what they're saying is that they are not calling for an official strike on the other CIE companies but are warming that their members are going to have difficulty crossing pickets. Not withstanding this they are not going to allow DB to move buses away from striking depot's to avoid this situation arising.

NBRU want their cake and eat it. If DB drivers refuse to work and call their own strike I hope DB sues the Union out of existence.

A judgement of one or two days lost revenue to DB against NBRU would be enough to sink this lot and finally see the end of NBRU

really? have you saw their accounts to be able to make such a statement?

MrMac84 wrote: »

Ha ha ha that's mental! It's not like it rocket science either just it's just stop and go. Surely a wage of 400 take home after tax would be fair.. anything else is a bonus

no . there is a lot more to it. the pay is what it is because it's a responsible job.

devnull wrote: »

One question, do you have any connection to Sinn Fein or Imelda Munster? If you keep saying what she says all of the time, in every post it makes it look like you are her or someone connected to her and if you do have a conflict of interest you really should register it.

hardly. he is simply asking for clarification on issues and posting the information he is seeking clarification on. no conflict of interest on his part.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If the strike continues, I think the NTA should move quickly and take the PSO off BE and offer it commercial operators who will provide the service that the taxpayers require and pay for.

the PSO routes aren't commercially viable, so to take them and give them to commercial operators would mean those routes gone as soon as. the routes have to be paid for as they are loss making and must remain as PSO routes and funded accordingly. out of interest, did you believe transdev should have lost the contract when luas went on strike?

end of the road wrote: »

the PSO routes aren't commercially viable, so to take them and give them to commercial operators would mean those routes gone as soon as. the routes have to be paid for as they are loss making and must remain as PSO routes and funded accordingly. out of interest, did you believe transdev should have lost the contract when luas went on strike?

That's why they're PSO routes. Nobody is suggesting handing the PSOs to privates without subsidy. I personally don't see the difference between (for example) the NTA paying Bus Éireann to do a Galway-Sligo route and them paying Citylink/Callinan to do the same thing. I don't see Bus Éireann as having a special status when it comes to PSO routes. They definitely should not.

road_high wrote: »

Bottom line, what's goin to actually happen BE? In my naivety before I'd have read stuff here and elsewhere I'd have thought them to be a pretty good semi state company and service. Never had an issue the odd time I use them, nice buses and courteous drivers. No issue with the punctuality either.

Will it come to it Expressway will go and private operators will pick over the carcass of routes left behind and step in to replace what's viable in the market?

Too late to answer it in full detail

But here is regulators view:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/no-rural-communities-will-left-behind/

The rest of it comes down to licensing and BE not adapting to a system which put consumers first and drove a large increase of public transport users on intercity routes, management not developing the services and commercial mismanagement of many of the intercity routes which saw them decide that certain routes and express services were not viable, only for the competition to prove they are and take passenger numbers away from them.

Then you add in costs in the business, the overtime culture, staff who are not driving a bus for much more than 60% of their paid working hours, inverted pyramids in the clerical department where the higher up the tree you go the more staff there are, poor working practices and inefficiencies, low staff productivity, a company over-burdened with too much management, poor control of spending on marketing, there are many things which make up this issue.

Karsini wrote: »

That's why they're PSO routes. Nobody is suggesting handing the PSOs to privates without subsidy. I personally don't see the difference between (for example) the NTA paying Bus Éireann to do a Galway-Sligo route and them paying Citylink/Callinan to do the same thing. I don't see Bus Éireann as having a special status when it comes to PSO routes. They definitely should not.

Which is why I asked do BE get the PSO routes by default or are they put out to tender!

gbob wrote: »

I still think this is all a deliberate plan by the Gov/NTA/CIE to force BE staff to the gate so they can blame unions for collapsing public transport.

I simply believe they are trying to make the taxpayer get value for money. Simply put the working practices in that company are outdated and not using taxpayers money in a sustainable way.

Remember, Expressway was only created as a brand 2 yrs ago and has apparently had three rescue attempts failed in that time.. Expressway was created to fail ! .

Expressway has been a brand for a lot, lot longer than that. The difference is that it has only been shouted about and painted in a very distinctive livery with a big EXPRESSWAY on the side whereas before it was cobranded with Bus Eireann on the side and a smaller Expressway logo.

end of the road

road_high wrote: »

Bottom line, what's goin to actually happen BE? In my naivety before I'd have read stuff here and elsewhere I'd have thought them to be a pretty good semi state company and service. Never had an issue the odd time I use them, nice buses and courteous drivers. No issue with the punctuality either.
Will it come to it Expressway will go and private operators will pick over the carcass of routes left behind and step in to replace what's viable in the market?

unfortunately the answer is nobody knows yet what will happen.

Karsini wrote: »

That's why they're PSO routes. Nobody is suggesting handing the PSOs to privates without subsidy. I personally don't see the difference between (for example) the NTA paying Bus Éireann to do a Galway-Sligo route and them paying Citylink/Callinan to do the same thing. I don't see Bus Éireann as having a special status when it comes to PSO routes. They definitely should not.

unfortunately the poster did write "give them to commercial operators" . so, i could only answer on what he wrote. bus eireann don't have a special status but i wouldn't have an issue with them doing so, as we all own it.

end of the road wrote: »

the PSO routes aren't commercially viable, so to take them and give them to commercial operators would mean those routes gone as soon as. the routes have to be paid for as they are loss making and must remain as PSO routes and funded accordingly. out of interest, did you believe transdev should have lost the contract when luas went on strike?

Whether a route is sustainable on not depends on the cost of providing it versus the revenue that it brings in. If a route right now is mildly loss making, an operator with lower costs could turn it into a small surplus.

Nobody is denying that some routes will never be commercially sustainable and will need subvention no matter who operates them, but the public have a right to ensure that the companies are operated in a way that gives them value for money and makes the best use of both staffing and resources at their disposal.

I posted a document a few pages back with all of the changes in that are proposed, a number of those are very sensible and will produce a more customer focused company and ensure that the company operates using it's resources better, without reducing staffs core pay.

By the way, Transdev won a competitive tender. They did not get a contract by default.