tayto lover wrote: » Link please?
schemingbohemia wrote: » You're doing the same thing that Troy and Munster did. You're conflating two separate things. Currently if services by Expressway (Non PSO) drop towns then there's nothing NTA can do, the exact same as any other licensed service. If there's no licensed service to a town and there is a public transport need, then the NTA will examine tendering for it for inclusion in PSO services. BE will be able to tender for this like any other bus company just like they were allowed tender for the previous routes that had been Expressway and changed to PSO. If there's no demand for a service then there may be no need for a PSO service either. Or if it's already being served by another PSO service - Rail (Westport - Athlone) then there's no need for a doubling up of PSO services. BE management failed to adapt to the new licensing arrangements, staff make it impossible for real change to be affected to the cost base due to the over-payment going on and strict adherence to "custom and practise".
devnull wrote: » If I wanted to spin for the opposite side to Munster, I'd write it like this: "There is no guarantee that intermediate Towns currently served by private operators, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any public operator, if public operators are to take over any routes that are currently served by private operators." But that is spin, implying something that is not true by only telling half the story and It's still deception by omission and now you are doing the same because you are being entangled in either their web of spin or their lack of knowledge of the situation, since it is clearly one or the other who are only telling half of the story. The correct way to look at it, re-writing your post to the reality i: "There is no guarantee that any intermediate Towns currently served by Bus Eireann Expressway or any other Commercial operator, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any commercial operator, be that Bus Eireann Expressway, or a private commercial operator, if Bus Eireann Expressway or another commercial operator are able to take over any routes that are currently served by Bus Eireann Expressway or a private commercial operator." Bus Eireann Expressway and private operators are both considered exactly the same and have exactly the same rules under the eyes of the regulator in every respect. The politicians might not be saying it but it is true.
Brendan Bendar wrote: » Hmm .......walls of text on this one, excellent discourse. However bottom line, company is going bust, the unions won't budge, only one answer......let it go to the wall. Don't waste taxpayers money. No wall of text there.
horseburger wrote: » I am referring to the possibility that private companies would have no interest in serving many of the routes currently operated by Bus Éireann, for example bus services connecting villages to towns within counties.
If they didn't serve Dublin Airport, would they operate as many services to and from Dublin, at night, or even during the day?
Deputy Robert Troy: "Ms Graham would seem to be at variance with the Minister who said on a radio programme in Waterford on 17 February that replacement services by the NTA may not be as frequent or as comfortable as those of Bus Éireann". Ms Anne Graham: "Obviously, we would try to ensure that the towns are served to the level the demand requires. It may not be the case that one would have the same level of service as an Expressway but it could be the case that one might have better connections to one's local towns or the larger towns with good onward connectivity. Our responsibility is to ensure that the level of connectivity is continued to the level required for the communities in those areas"
Thomas Pringle - in this Dail debate on 31st January 2017 - and Imelda Munster on LMFM on 23rd February, have both highlighted that Bus Éireann has been receiving less and less government support in recent years for its services.
"This must be taken into account when considering the cost of the service A total of 30% of Expressway passengers have the free travel pass. As stated by Deputy Brendan Ryan, the Department of Social Protection pays only 41% of the cost of a ticket for a passenger using free transport. Bus Éireann has a disproportionate number of free travel pass passengers on its Expressway service as against private operators because it operates with a large social responsibility and part of its service is social".
It provides services to provincial towns and villages which private operators will simply will not provide.
Because private operators go from point to point such as from Galway to Dublin along the motorway network, they have a disproportionately high number of paying passengers who pay to travel from Dublin to Galway, without any thought being given to the service element required to be met by Bus Éireann.
The NTA refuses to recognise this because, as has been said, it is driven by a market-led competition mantra and grants licences to compete with Bus Éireann services which affect the future viability of Bus Éireann.
We have to properly subsidise and support Bus Éireann and recognise once and for all the social aspect of the business it operates as being viable and desirable..
Arcade_Tryer wrote: » How can a company make profits on non-profitable but necessary routes? Or should the people in need of services be the ones to lose out in the long run?
http://nbru.ie/union/index.php/staff-notice/nbru-notice-to-members-on-the-bus-eireann-crisis/
union, Feb 1 wrote: Unions will exclude Bus Éireann passengers with no alternative transport services from strikes when they announce a game plan for industrial action this week.
nbru wrote: Members will be aware that Bus Éireann staff may soon be engaged in an all-out indefinite strike
horseburger wrote: » I included the texts to indicate, and include the link for - the Dáil debates to which I was referring, rather than making statements with no references to what i was writing about, and the Dail debates, to which I referred. Can you provide details, or examples of other countries, to show how letting Bus Éireann "go to the wall" would be a positive move? It would seem, that in England, increasing privatisation, at the expense of previously run public bus services, wasn't all positive:https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buseshttp://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/160314_Building_a_World-class_Bus_System_extended%20summary%20report_FINAL4_for_web.pdfhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/21/why-nobody-complaining-bus-services-deregulationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_deregulation_in_Great_Britain#Bus_wars
horseburger wrote: » Can you provide details, or examples of other countries, to show how letting Bus Éireann "go to the wall" would be a positive move? It would seem, that in England, increasing privatisation, at the expense of previously run public bus services, wasn't all positive:
devnull wrote: » Bus Eireann run rural and unviable services under the Bus Eireann name because they are paid to do so and given free vehicles to do so under contract to the state. Privates don't because up until now with very very limited exception they were not given free vehicles or subsidy to do so. That's it. This belief that Bus Eireann runs rural routes out of some romatic notion they care about people is false. They do so because the state pays them to. I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but you have to recognize that Bus Eireann and Expressway are two different arms, operating in very different environments, to to very different rule books and regulations. You cannot compare a Bus Eireann service to a private commercial service. They are two totally different things and it's like comparing apples with oranges and you're falling for the trap that the politicians want you to. Bus Éireann operates services like these in rural areas. You will find that the traffic going to the airport is far less than the traffic which is going to the city center. That is why reliefs on a lot of those routes tend to be short workings that only run from city center to city center and do not serve the airport and the fact that some operators have scheduled services that at certain times don't serve the airport. I think that it is entirely sensible to provision services based on demand and need for said services and destination. That is the sign of an operation that is efficient. The fact was a lot of these intercity services for some time around 2010 a combination of 80% people going end to end and 20% people going to and from the Towns. What has happened now is that it has been proven that the services before were not meeting the needs of the majority of the public? How can we tell this? Because of the fact that volumes on many of the key corridors have gone up hugely since the start of motorway services. This means that previously a large number of passengers were being disadvantaged for a smaller number of passengers between the Towns which were being overserved. What I object to is this silly talk about the local towns now having minibuses and a smaller coach rather than a long coach and this being a downgrading of the service. Every service should have a vehicle and capacity which matches its demand and passengers. If there are only single digit or low two digit passengers on some of these rural services than a vehicle size should be reflected to accept that. What rural passengers have to realise is that if you are living in a small village between for example Dublin and Cork where there are a couple of thousand people living there you should not expect to get the same level of service that two cities get between each other. Certainly you should still get a service, but at the same time that service should reflect on the population, it's needs, the demand and the cost effectiveness of such services. Forcing two cities with over a million people in them between them, to go through every single town en-route to please a few thousand people in villages is not the sign of a good public transport system or one that delivers for as many of the public as possible. Those people in the villages still need services and should be provided them, if they are not commercially viable then a PSO route needs to be created, but the few should not hold back the majority. Incorrect, state support and capital investment increased both in 2015 and 2016 and is said to go up again this year. again the politicians are spinning here and are being selective with years they select in order to try and make a misleading political point. For social services the company is fully remunerated and vehicles provided for free for it by the state. These services are not losing money. Private operators who started route licenses before 2010 were eligible for the free travel pass and operate in exactly the same kind of conditions as BE. In addition, private operators are not allowed to compete with PSO services. Incorrect - there are many examples of this, in some cases, the private operators make more stops than Bus Eireann does. Look at JJ Kavanagh for instance who on many of their routes service stops which BE have abandoned. In addition, a lot of the services the privates provide, are the ones that Bus Eireann claimed would never be successful because their passenger numbers would never stack up,. So the reverse can be argued, the privates provide services that customers have took up in their hundreds of thousands every year that Bus Eireann said would never work out, would be dead after a few months and that they would be unviable and that they can never take that risk with their business, so the reverse can be argued too, that privates provide services that many people want but they simply won't provide. In addition a lot of the Expressway route they serve smaller places on because of the fact that they couldn't get licenses for non stop services because they were too slow to apply so they were left with little choice but to continue serving these or withdraw. Bad management plays a large part of the problem with Expressway, the idea that they didn't change routes because of some idea that they want to serve these places is romantic, but ultimately it's a wet unrealistic dream by some of the extremists on the left. There is no service element required to be met by Bus Eireann. On the Dublin to Galway route they have the same requirements as any other commercial operator and can withdraw or modify routes in line with the same rules that other commercial operator has. This is something you continually refuse to understand. For such routes, there is no difference between requirements for BE Expressway and other commercial operator, the politicians are misleading you when you are simply posting what they say despite the fact it's ainaccurate. No the NTA is driven by it's obligation to the travelling public, and when they assess an application for a commercial licence, they do so with this in mind without fear or intimidation from anyone or favour to any particular organisation and gives equal treatment to both semi state commercial companies and private commercial companies as part of the 2009 Public Transport Regulation act. The regulator is there to look after public transport provision, they are not there to nanny Bus Eireann and neither should they be. It is unfortunate that some politicians are more interested in protecting Bus Eireann than the traveling public, because I believe that public transport itself is far more important and bigger than one company. No, we have to properly ensure that public transport in this country is run in the interests of the taxpayer and the people who use public transport or would consider using it in this country. It is rather telling that in all of the quotes you have posted the traveling public and what they require are not mentioned once. Only what is good for Bus Eireann. I believe in a public transport system that is run for people and where the bigger picture is more important than what is best for any particular company. The states job is to do that and that alone, not to prop up companies, but look at the bigger picture.
Brendan Bendar wrote: » No , sorry I can't. All I can produce is figures which say the company is losing money hand over fist and unless action is taken they will go to the wall. That all I can do.
horseburger wrote: » But I also wonder, how private companies can keep some services going, if on their routes where they don't serve intermediate towns, there is often only a handful of people on an particular service, for example an Aircoach service I got from Belfast recently.
I was saying that, there was no certainty in what Anne Graham said in the Joint Committee meeting, in her response to Robert Troy and Imelda Munster, that intermediate stops would continue to be served, in cases where private companies may take over particular routes that were served by Bus Éireann.
horseburger wrote: » Do you not think that if you state that it should "go to the wall", that you should provide details to argue your case that letting it "go to the wall" would be a positive move?
devnull wrote: » There's several huge differences between the UK and Ireland bus markets. In the UK there is a full de-regulated market, that simply does not exist here. In the UK operators can register a service and run buses whenever they want on whatever routes they want without any licenses or application process. Essentially it is a free for all and operators can do whatever they like. This has led to Bus Wars and predatory pricing, predatory services and people running at below cost etc. None of that is possible in Ireland because we do not have de-regulation so using the UK model as an example isn't even valid because we don't have that model here and nobody has even proposed it. The one thing I will say in the UK though, is that costs are much lower than they would be in Ireland because of this and in many cities the overwhelming majority of the services are operated commercially and without public support, whereas in Dublin for instance, every single city bus route is deemed to be needing public funding.
Brendan Bendar wrote: » What about losing €1.9 million for January. Other than reducing costs or screwing the taxpayer I can't see a way out. And I really don't want to pay to keep a bloated company in business. Legacy conditions are so 1970.
horseburger wrote: » I asked you to provide an example, to show where letting it "go to the wall", would be a positive move. You haven't answered that question.
Brendan Bendar wrote: » I'm sorry , I have. Not wasting taxpayers money on a basket case would be very positive in my opinion.
road_high wrote: » So in relation to the X7 Clonmel service, if the worst comes to the worst and no more BE on this route- what are the chances of say Dublin Coach stepping in here? They already do Kilkenny/Waterford to Dublin, they could take up the slack by adding some extra services to/from Clonmel or feeder services? How likely is it that it will come to this drastic conclusion? Very? Once they start doing this then, other routes will become vulnerable and so on?
horseburger wrote: » Do you reckon there is a possibility of full deregulation in Ireland? What would stop it occurring?
In the Dail debates to which I referred, it was stated by some of the public representatives, that government support for Bus Éireann has decreased in recent years. Imelda Munster stated in the debate on the Fianna Fáil motion on 31st January that: "PSO funding has been slashed from €49 million in 2009 to €33 million this year. That is a huge cut in funding for a public service in which we were supposed to invest and enhance. The public transport network in Ireland has the lowest subvention level in Europe".
Bus workers with 20 years' experience on €624 are targeted but where is the punishment for those who created the crisis?
It included a 30% cut in average pay.
While the company brings in contract drivers on the minimum wage. In the same breath, Bus Éireann classes itself as a premium employer. What we have seen transpire in recent weeks is a semi-State company being directed by the Government to instigate a race to the bottom for workers' rights and conditions. That is shocking".
An RTE news item, dated Tuesday 31st January 2017, states that "Bus Éireann has presented three restructuring plans to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, its CIE parent company and the New ERA government body since 2015 - but none have been accepted, resulting in losses continuing to accumulate".
n97 mini wrote: » Might see a boost in demand for the Limerick Junction to Waterford train service.
road_high wrote: » So in relation to the X7 Clonmel service, if the worst comes to the worst and no more BE on this route- what are the chances of say Dublin Coach stepping in here? They already do Kilkenny/Waterford to Dublin, they could take up the slack by adding some extra services to/from Clonmel or feeder services?
horseburger wrote: » You know well, that I asked you to give me an example of another place where letting a public bus company, and its services "go to the wall", resulted in an improvement of bus services. The items I included, as links in my post, argue the case, that overall in England and UK, taking away the public bus transport services in 1985 and 1986, and rail services in the 1994 1997 period, have led to much negative aspects of the bus and train services.https://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/buseshttps://weownit.org.uk/public-ownership/railwayshttp://www.transportforqualityoflife.com/u/files/120630_Rebuilding_Rail_Final_Report_print_version.pdf
