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Bust Éireann

oppenheimer1

According to reports today, Bus Eireann has about 18 months left before it goes insolvent. The company lost 7m last year on top of accumulated losses for previous years.

What future does the company have? Looks like service cuts and forced redundancies are on the way at a minimum. Do you think they will sell off expressway?

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jimmycrackcorm

joeysoap wrote:

Might be mis-understanding this, but could anybody tender for a route, get the contract and then drop intermediate stops off that route within a few months? Said operator never really intending to make those stops but including them only to make the tender 'attractive' knowing they could drop them easily enough within a short timeframe. Is that possible?

The expressway 32 service to letterkenny used to take the N2 via Slane and Collon. Now it takes a more direct route via the M1. So it would seem fair to be able to take off stops for commercial reasons where not a PSO .

devnull

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The expressway 32 service to letterkenny used to take the N2 via Slane and Collon. Now it takes a more direct route via the M1. So it would seem fair to be able to take off stops for commercial reasons where not a PSO .

No commercial service is a PSO. The two terms are mutually exclusive.

There are two types of commercial license on Intercity services

– Express services– with no intermediate stops or limited intermediate stops at major towns or cities on the route (e.g. Cork-Limerick-Galway)
– Multi-stop services– with numerous intermediate stops between the terminal points.

Also Interurban Express service must have 30 minute time separation from other interurban express service and multi-stop services must also have 30 minutes time separation from other multi-stop services to avoid predatory running and a timetable in the interests of the public.

Two per corridor of each service are allowed. If a service that is a multi-stop wants to become an express, it can only do so if the two express licenses are not already taken.

horseburger

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I'm not sure whether it's ignorance or wilful spinning but Imelda Munster doesn't seem to know how Expressway works at all.

I think, Robert Troy and Imelda Munster were asking quite general questions about both Expressway services and PSO services.

Their questions were better than Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick's contribution to the discussion, where he was talking about being very unhappy about whoever it was that started spreading rumours and speculation, about a charge of 50 euros being placed on people who have a free travel pass.

He said opposition parties were suggesting that this may be a possibility.

He asked Mr. Tim Duggan, assistant secretary of the Department of Social Protection, about this, who replied that "There are no plans whatsoever to change the free travel scheme or impose charges of any kind".

Robert Troy reminded him that it was Fine Gael TD Jim Daly who started speaking about the possibility of bringing in such a charge!:)

http://www.thejournal.ie/free-travel-pass-jim-daly-fine-gael-fianna-fail-bus-eireann-3213373-Jan2017/

http://www.thejournal.ie/cash-bus-bus-eireann-3201304-Jan2017/

Robert Troy responded to Peter Fitzpatrick by saying - with reference to that night's Fine Gael parliamentary meeting where Simon Coveney and Leo Varadkar failed to get rid of Enda Kenny - "With regard to the Department of Social Protection, I remind my colleague here on the committee that it was his party colleague, Deputy Daly, who first mooted the introduction of a €50 charge for the free travel scheme. If he wants to tackle anybody about scaremongering, therefore, he might bring it up later at the parliamentary party meeting, although I think they have more pressing issues to discuss".

Peter Fitzpatrick also asked Anne Graham of the NTA about talk going around about a possible closure of the bus depot in Dundalk, to which she replied that that was nothing to do with the NTA, but a matter for Bus Éireann.

Either way, what ever one thinks of the quality of the questioning by Robert Troy, Imelda Munster, or Peter Fitzpatrick, I think is clear, from the response by Anne Graham to the questions by Imelda Munster and Robert Troy, that there is no guarantee that intermediate towns currently served by Bus Éireann, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any private operator, if private companies are to take over any routes that are currently served by Bus Éireann.

Anne Graham stated:

"The Deputy has asked me to address a number of issues. I indicated that a private operator which has a licence service is not obliged to continue that service if it is unviable on a commercial basis. It could be for other reasons that it would want to withdraw from the service. This is covered by the legislation under which we operate on behalf of the Government".

"There is no doubt that there is more protection for services that are subject to a PSO contract and any changes in regard to those services needs our approval. The only time we would want to consider that would be if we were not in a position to fund services. We try to protect as many public transport services as we can because it is in our interest to make sure there are as many people as possible using public transport, but we do not have the same level of control over a licence service as we do over a subsidised service".

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/TTJ2017022200002?opendocument

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=34662&&CatID=127

https://media.heanet.ie/player/bad0cd63dfd2c5b66a5c400a3c4b358f

Jamie2k9

The bigger issue would be shared BE/IE locations.

Not been a problem before, why would it be now?

schemingbohemia

horseburger wrote: »

Either way, what ever one thinks of the quality of the questioning by Robert Troy, Imelda Munster, or Peter Fitzpatrick, I think is clear, from the response by Anne Graham to the questions by Imelda Munster and Robert Troy, that there is no guarantee that intermediate towns currently served by Bus Éireann, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any private operator, if private companies are to take over any routes that are currently served by Bus Éireann.

You're doing the same thing that Troy and Munster did. You're conflating two separate things.

Currently if services by Expressway (Non PSO) drop towns then there's nothing NTA can do, the exact same as any other licensed service.

If there's no licensed service to a town and there is a public transport need, then the NTA will examine tendering for it for inclusion in PSO services. BE will be able to tender for this like any other bus company just like they were allowed tender for the previous routes that had been Expressway and changed to PSO.

If there's no demand for a service then there may be no need for a PSO service either. Or if it's already being served by another PSO service - Rail (Westport - Athlone) then there's no need for a doubling up of PSO services.

BE management failed to adapt to the new licensing arrangements, staff make it impossible for real change to be affected to the cost base due to the over-payment going on and strict adherence to "custom and practise".

markpb

schemingbohemia wrote: »

If there's no licensed service to a town and there is a public transport need, then the NTA will examine tendering for it for inclusion in PSO services. BE will be able to tender for this like any other bus company just like they were allowed tender for the previous routes that had been Expressway and changed to PSO.

How does ticketing work on those PSO routes? Is there any cross-acceptance of tickets between PSO operators (including Bus Eireann)? While I'm generally okay with tendering for public transport, I wonder could customers be at a disadvantage if they travel on a route which requires a connection between two PSO operators?

road_high

I think it was inevitable once the new Motorways opened that small towns and villages would suffer.
Looking at my own neck of the woods, the likes of Urlingford, Castlecomer and Thomastown etc had hourly or so services to/from Dublin courtesy of Expressway to/from bigger centres. There was no way these were going to stay on the old slow routes once the M9 or M8 motorways opened, an unintended consequence if you like.

n97 mini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not been a problem before, why would it be now?

I was curious about places like Athlone where the train and bus station share the same site. If BE woorkers are picketing with IE staff stay out?

XrayGolf

n97 mini wrote: »

I was curious about places like Athlone where the train and bus station share the same site. If BE woorkers are picketing with IE staff stay out?

This would be interesting as IE workers not crossing the picket in Athlone could close down the Sligo/Galway/Mayo/Waterford lines.

loyatemu

n97 mini wrote: »

I was curious about places like Athlone where the train and bus station share the same site. If BE woorkers are picketing with IE staff stay out?

presumably depends on whether it's a IÉ depot and the train drivers have to cross a picket to get to their trains.

Jamie2k9

n97 mini wrote: »

I was curious about places like Athlone where the train and bus station share the same site. If BE woorkers are picketing with IE staff stay out?

They haven't before nor have BE when IE were striking in places such as Athlone, Limerick, Tralee etc.

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

I think is clear, from the response by Anne Graham to the questions by Imelda Munster and Robert Troy, that there is no guarantee that intermediate towns currently served by Bus Éireann, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any private operator, if private companies are to take over any routes that are currently served by Bus Éireann.

If I wanted to spin for the opposite side to Munster, I'd write it like this:
"There is no guarantee that intermediate Towns currently served by private operators, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any public operator, if public operators are to take over any routes that are currently served by private operators."

But that is spin, implying something that is not true by only telling half the story and It's still deception by omission and now you are doing the same because you are being entangled in either their web of spin or their lack of knowledge of the situation, since it is clearly one or the other who are only telling half of the story.

The correct way to look at it, re-writing your post to the reality i:
"There is no guarantee that any intermediate Towns currently served by Bus Eireann Expressway or any other Commercial operator, on different routes, will still definitely be served by any commercial operator, be that Bus Eireann Expressway, or a private commercial operator, if Bus Eireann Expressway or another commercial operator are able to take over any routes that are currently served by Bus Eireann Expressway or a private commercial operator."

Bus Eireann Expressway and private operators are both considered exactly the same and have exactly the same rules under the eyes of the regulator in every respect. The politicians might not be saying it but it is true.

devnull

markpb wrote: »

How does ticketing work on those PSO routes? Is there any cross-acceptance of tickets between PSO operators (including Bus Eireann)? While I'm generally okay with tendering for public transport, I wonder could customers be at a disadvantage if they travel on a route which requires a connection between two PSO operators?

All of the tenders that are currently out there for Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann involve them accepting the same tickets and a cross operator ticketing system. The NTA are currently working on introducing this when the winners for the tenders that are currently out and announced.

In addition they have recently awarded a contract to a supplier for bus stop infrastructure, timetable displays and other on street information, in view of them taking over the full provision of on street information in 2018.

devnull

road_high wrote: »

I think it was inevitable once the new Motorways opened that small towns and villages would suffer. Looking at my own neck of the woods, the likes of Urlingford, Castlecomer and Thomastown etc had hourly or so services to/from Dublin courtesy of Expressway to/from bigger centres. There was no way these were going to stay on the old slow routes once the M9 or M8 motorways opened, an unintended consequence if you like.

But realistically, there has to be services to match demand and the only reason those services were viable was that the larger number who were traveling from bigger centre to bigger center. The people taking the more local routes were tiny in comparison.

I'm not saying that those people in Urlingford, Castlecomer and Thomastown do not deserve a service, they certainly do, but they were over-served previously as areas where there is more demand are always going to have more regular and higher capacity services as more efficient use of capacity.

Jamie2k9

Changes to take effect from 6 March...

devnull

Statement:
http://buseireann.ie/news.php?id=2248&month=Feb

Due to the perilous state of the Company’s finances and the failure to reach agreement with unions at the Workplace Relations Committee (WRC) last week, the Board of Bus Éireann considered the matter in detail at its meeting today and approved proposals for immediate cost savings to be implemented from Monday, March 6th.

These measures are vital to ensure that the Company remains solvent, and can continue to trade as a going concern.

The Company must deal with its challenges directly, and the Board have a duty to ensure Bus Éireann is financially sustainable and therefore must take the necessary steps to secure this.

Further dialogue aimed at urgently resolving these challenges would be welcome.

SweetCaliber

devnull wrote: »

Statement:
http://buseireann.ie/news.php?id=2248&month=Feb

So I take it a strike will be happening soon?

n97 mini

...about knock on effects

http://nbru.ie/union/index.php/staff-notice/nbru-notice-to-members-on-the-bus-eireann-crisis/

Aside from the strange use of capitalisation throughout, it seems to be full of hidden messages and double meanings.

hufpc8w3adnk65

What exactly are they proposing to implement to save money?

Jamie2k9

Routes Closing:
* Dublin/Kilkenny/Clonmel - ends 12 March
* Athline/Westport - ends 16 April
* Dublin/Derry - ends 28 May

Frequency Cut (from 12 March)
* Dublin/Galway
* Dublin/Limerick

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0227/855768-bus-eireann/

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

...about knock on effects

http://nbru.ie/union/index.php/staff-notice/nbru-notice-to-members-on-the-bus-eireann-crisis/

Aside from the strange use of capitalisation throughout, it seems to be full of hidden messages and double meanings.

Essentially go ahead and do illegal strikes, it's nothing to do with us, honest guv?

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Routes Closing:
* Dublin/Kilkenny/Clonmel - ends 12 March
* Athline/Westport - ends 16 April
* Dublin/Derry - ends 28 May

Frequency Cut (from 12 March)
* Dublin/Galway
* Dublin/Limerick

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0227/855768-bus-eireann/

I like the bit where the unions claim that BE are issuing an ultimatum, the ultimate in irony and hypocrisy from a group of people who are taking strike action!

devnull

MrMac84 wrote: »

What exactly are they proposing to implement to save money?

Essentially to make the business more efficient make more people spend more of their time driving rather than little over half and stopping drivers earning up to 30k in overtime and additional perks on their basic pay to make the business more cost effective.

There is also to be large cuts in the clerical department where staff are earning 45k and there is an inverted pyramid of seniority whereby in most companies the higher up the ladder you get the less staff there are but Bus Eireann are the opposite.

In addition there is to be overnight maintenance of vehicles, a cut back in marketing and also cuts to terms and conditions for management and other grades. In addition there is said to be over 100 non driver staff being laid off, including management and executive staff.

hufpc8w3adnk65

30K in overtime is mental. Also only spending half the day actually driving is madness aswell

oppenheimer1

devnull wrote: »

Essentially go ahead and do illegal strikes, it's nothing to do with us, honest guv?

So what they're saying is that they are not calling for an official strike on the other CIE companies but are warming that their members are going to have difficulty crossing pickets. Not withstanding this they are not going to allow DB to move buses away from striking depot's to avoid this situation arising.

NBRU want their cake and eat it. If DB drivers refuse to work and call their own strike I hope DB sues the Union out of existence.

A judgement of one or two days lost revenue to DB against NBRU would be enough to sink this lot and finally see the end of NBRU

ixoy

Did the unions offer any proposals of their own to save money? Or are they solely assuming a bail out. Surely some of their members must realise that there's a very dangerous gamble here.

Jamie2k9

ixoy wrote: »

Did the unions offer any proposals of their own to save money? Or are they solely assuming a bail out. Surely some of their members must realise that there's a very dangerous gamble here.

They demanded pay rises.....

RedXIV

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They demanded pay rises.....

you couldn't write it. God bless the unions with these dreams

hufpc8w3adnk65

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They demanded pay rises.....

Ha ha ha that's mental! It's not like it rocket science either just it's just stop and go. Surely a wage of 400 take home after tax would be fair.. anything else is a bonus

tayto lover

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They demanded pay rises.....

Link please?