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"Why I did not report my rapist"

LightlyGo

Has anyone read Rosemary McCabes blog post "Why I did not report my rapist?" ?
It's been widely shared on facebook today and other platforms so I'm assuming she's ok with it being discussed.
It feels to me like a widening of the definition of rape to include sex that she did not refuse for politeness sake as opposed to the more traditional notion of rape as sex she was too afraid or too intimidated to refuse.

As a woman I find it really troubling, not only the content but the comments in response on twitter and on the article where scores of women almost universally respond with tears and praise for her bravery in sharing the story and an "it happened to me too". There's no acknowledgement of nuance in the situation or even somewhat glaring issues with defining it as an assault. It's aim is to highlight sexual abuse and assault but it feels like it's actually devaluing it to something relatively banal and easily preventable. This new consensus would damage men, women but very much so victims of abuse too.

To me the story was a cautionary tale of the importance of taking responsibility for yourself and your decisions, we all make mistakes after all particularly when we are young, but it is important we learn the right lesson from them. I haven't had sex when I didn't want to but I've made mistakes when I was too immature to cope with a relationship, I've even gone out with someone I wasn't into lest I hurt his feelings by rejecting him. I look back now though and see that was my problem, I was the only one responsible for not taking care of me regardless of my motivation. I find that idea empowering, it means I can now change my behaviour and be safer even if I'd rather never have the awkwardness of a "sorry I don't feel that way about you" chat.

I was wondering if the responses on facebook and twitter etc are representative of the general opinion on this so I'm asking you all for your opinions.

This is the story she posted of her rape :

He and I had known each other a few weeks – we were in college together – and had kissed a handful of times. The weekend before, after a drunken night in a neighbouring apartment playing cards, we had ended up in bed together. Afterwards, he told me he’d been hoping this would happen – he really wanted to cuddle and I felt really uncomfortable.

I had recently broken up with my boyfriend and, I think, in that moment I realised that he was a rebound. I liked him a lot, but I didn’t really fancy him, and I most definitely didn’t want to go out with him. I was kind of disgusted with myself – I felt like the evil men I read about in women’s magazines, who slept with women and then, once they’d “got what they wanted”, realised they weren’t that into them anyway. I felt guilty.

The following week, we found ourselves socialising with a group of friends in the local. I spent the night avoiding him; I was afraid he’d try to kiss me again, and I was too much of a coward to be upfront and tell him I wasn’t into him.

Later, back in our apartment, he and a few of his friends came back for more drinks. We all sat on our couch, drinking from glass bottles (remember when it was cool to drink those tiny bottles of French beer?). When it came time to go to bed – I was always one of the first to fold, which may be part of why I don’t really drink anymore – he followed me into my room and asked if he could kiss me. I was in my pyjamas.

Once again, I was too ashamed – of my own meanness to say no. I remember thinking, he’ll get the message eventually. We kissed. He tried to undress me. I said no. He tried again – my top came off. I told him I didn’t want to have sex. We kissed some more. He tried to take off my bottoms. I said no.

He wasn’t pushy – at least not physically – but he was stubborn. After several “no”s, I remember thinking, ‘it would just be easier to let him do it.’ So I stopped saying no, and I lay there, and he had sex with me. At no point did I shove him away, or scream at him, or tell him to get out of my room. (I wish I had.) I didn’t behave like a rape victim should behave.

http://rosemarymaccabe.com/i-didnt-report-my-rapist/

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tomwaterford

ibarelycare wrote: »

It's such a pity that Feminist has become such an ugly word because of people like Rosemary. I was talking to my bf about this last night...I consider myself a feminist as in I want equal rights for women. In fact I want equal rights for everyone. However it seems like some of the most vocal modern-day feminists are man haters who want men to suffer just because they've had the "privilege" of being born male (and/or white, straight, etc).

And another line that a lot of these feminists spout is that women should support each other, seemingly no matter what the subject matter is. I'll support anyone who I agree with, regardless of their gender, race, sexual orientation. The fact that Rosemary is deleting comments on FB from FEMALES who disagree with her (but not men) backs up this silly idea.

Modern day feminists (SJWs I guess) are undoing the good work that the Suffragates did for women, and it hugely bothers me that they have adopted the term and turned it into something so negative.

When did feminists cross over into the type of messing this wan is at

As tbh....in 99% of cases I imagine feminism (equality seeking) to be obsolete.....at least among people of my age

neonsofa

ibarelycare wrote: »

It's such a pity that Feminist has become such an ugly word because of people like Rosemary. I was talking to my bf about this last night...I consider myself a feminist as in I want equal rights for women. In fact I want equal rights for everyone. However it seems like some of the most vocal modern-day feminists are man haters who want men to suffer just because they've had the "privilege" of being born male (and/or white, straight, etc).

And another line that a lot of these feminists spout is that women should support each other, seemingly no matter what the subject matter is. I'll support anyone who I agree with, regardless of their gender, race, sexual orientation. The fact that Rosemary is deleting comments on FB from FEMALES who disagree with her (but not men) backs up this silly idea.

Modern day feminists (SJWs I guess) are undoing the good work that the Suffragates did for women, and it hugely bothers me that they have adopted the term and turned it into something so negative.

Exactly. And if you speak up against what "feminism" has become or refuse to identify as a feminist, you are labelled as a, what was it? Man's right activist??? Or a woman hater or an idiot. I absolutely believe in what feminism was. I cannot stand over what it has become, and that does make me sad as a woman. When I read people complaining about "feminism" and I know exactly what they're referring to and imo that is not feminism. But my saying that is viewed by people like her as evidence of patriarchy. Very frustrating.

PistolsAtDawn

Smell of leftists off this thread

midlandsmissus

Has everyone missed the part where she said , 'I told him I did not want to have sex with him'.

A woman says she was raped, and she is torn apart online and on social media. Quelle surprise.
That's never happened before - no wait, it"s happened to nearly every woman who has spoken publicly ever about this.

An important conversation to have would be why do some men think its ok to keep pushing ahead when you have told them no?

I certainly remember incidents as a teenager where I said no numerous times, and the man kept pushing, pushing, pushing.

It almost seems like some young men expect you to say no, totally discount it as par for the course, and keep chancing their arm anyway.

Its this that needs to be analysed in this country.

sbsquarepants

Boom_Bap wrote: »

They done a TED talk together recently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyPoqFcvt9w

I watched this at the weekend and I really don't know what to make of it. I genuinely don't.

I just can't wrap my head around it whatsoever.

It doesn't sit easy with me any way - if it happened exactly as they say, I just can't buy into him also being a victim in some way or other, or her being so forgiving (I don't really do forgiveness!)
They meet in south Africa for a week, she's married in Iceland - now I know you don't own your wife, before the inevitable comments - but I don't care, my wife is not flying half way around the world to spend a week with her rapist, not a fúcking chance!
Then write a book, do promos and so on - Not happening.

I don't know if this girl is just a hot Icelandic rosemary or truly remarkable woman or what. All I can be sure of is she's nothing like me whatsoever. I just don't know what to make of the bloke at all. The whole thing has genuinely unsettled me!

Penny Tration

midlandsmissus wrote: »

A woman says she was raped, and she is torn apart online and on social media. Quelle surprise.
That's never happened before - no wait, it"s happened to nearly every woman who has spoken publicly ever about this.

I can think of two off the top of my head that it hasn't happened to - the lady who's boyfriend raped her while she slept, the lady who was raped by the asshole who had the whole village out shaking his hand. They both received pretty much unwavering support online.

Women who have been raped tend to receive gentle treatment online, because everyone knows how horrific it is to go through that. This thread is a shining example of it - so many women here have admitted to being raped, and none of them have been received anything but sympathy, encouragement and support from other posters.

An important conversation to have would be why do some men think its ok to keep pushing ahead when you have told them no?

Perhaps if one means "no," one should say it and NOT continue to suck face. No followed by wearing the face off the person isn't a clear, unambiguous no.

It almost seems like some young men expect you to say no, totally discount it as par for the course, and keep chancing their arm anyway.

You mean like many young women do, too? This isn't about men. It's about people. Men aren't the only ones capable of sexual assault.

Mountainsandh

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Has everyone missed the part where she said , 'I told him I did not want to have sex with him'.

A woman says she was raped, and she is torn apart online and on social media. Quelle surprise.
.

Have you missed the rest of it ?
The kissing, the unsaid way clothes "came off", and the decision to go ahead with sex ?

Wibbs

Dynomutt wrote: »

I honestly don't know if she's a hypocrite or if she just has a bit of a want in her (as my Granny would say), but she definitely gives off mixed messages.

I recall similar nonsense from one of The Guardian "feminists" whose name mercifully escapes. On the one hand bleating on about wolf whistles as sexual harassment, followed by another article bemoaning the loss of said "harassment" as she got older. Patriarchy or somesuch. It was still men's fault, so bathe in male tears.

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

She's screaming about sexual harassment and objectivification while actively objectifying men in the same breath.

These traits are extremely common among the pro and semipro loudhailers of modern "feminism", as is attending therapy, while being fashion and male obsessed(again with the ironies going on). Pretty much every one of them*, here and abroad follow this mould, to the degree where if one of them had a mind to it might make a good case for mass plagiarism. Though it all goes back to the egg of the white middle class American college 80's "left" and social "sciences", so they're all singing from the same secondhand hymn sheet.

This "feminism" paints women as precisely the kind of nebulous, never satisfied, overly emotional, solipsistic, sexually confused, inconsistent, agentless individuals that those men opposing women's rights in the past believed all women to be. That's what really pisses me off about what feminism has become in the last 30 years.

I have more hope than I had mind you. More and more people, women and men, are seeing this adolescent nonsense for what it is and are calling shenanigans on it.

*I would say that one of them, Una Mulally, while coming out with stuff that makes my eyes cross, is at least more consistent and appears more genuine. Though given the field involved I'd not be shocked to find these traits making an appearance.

sbsquarepants

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I certainly remember incidents as a teenager where I said no numerous times, and the man kept pushing, pushing, pushing.

It almost seems like some young men expect you to say no, totally discount it as par for the course, and keep chancing their arm anyway.

Its this that needs to be analysed in this country.

I think there is a tendency there alright - I've been guilty of it myself in the past. But there is a clear line between a small bit of persistence and actual rape. There's body language and so on - it's generally easy enough to tell if someone is into it or not. If she had of stopped playing along, not kissed him back, or pulled away or anything like that he most likely would have stopped, she knows this, she went along with it "out of politeness" - her reasons for going along with it aren't really important, she went along, that's what matters. If you go along with it, which rosemary clearly did by her own admission - then you went along with it.
Regretting it 10 years later doesn't change anything.
We've all regretted sleeping with someone or other - that's just part of life.

Wibbs

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I watched this at the weekend and I really don't know what to make of it. I genuinely don't.

I just can't wrap my head around it whatsoever.

If we remove the rape aspect of it for a moment, what it comes across to me as is this exaggerated need borne from the popularity of therapy for confession. The more public the better. The Oprah Effect™ as it were(she and other talk show hosts built a career from it). The sexual aspect is almost immaterial, though a major "trigger word" like "Rape" makes for better material and more attention*. Jeremy Kyle style car crash viewing wrapped up in more muted tones. If one views it through that prism it makes more sense.

*this does not mean that it isn't heartfelt, or genuine, but it is about the public confession thing.

mzungu

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Close enough

https://twitter.com/RosemaryMacCabe/status/764559413986357248

#FeminstTheoryYouGuysJustDontUnderstand :pac::pac::pac:

bullvine

As a husband of someone who was violently raped as a 14 year old girl, I am disgusted by that blog, she has managed to belittle every girl that has ever been raped.

Samuel T. Cogley

The Thanks in these threads can be very telling. A very non-scientific look at them shows roughly a 50/50 split on whether it's rape or not. Understandable IMHO, I'm torn on it myself. However it's about time women admitted their role in all of this. Stop looking to be chased, stop looking for the 'man to make the first move' stop with all this seduction, will I won't I will I won't I bull****. If you want to ****, ****.

It seems to me that alcohol and sex go hand in hand in this country, why? Because of this stupid notion that sex is somehow dirty and a girl is a slut for enjoying it. Just quit it. Be forthright and ideally sober, that applies equally to both sexes.

FishOnABike

Deer wrote: »

I had a bit of a chat with my daughter over the weekend due to this subject.

It's ridiculous. There was a pair of them in it and it certainly wasn't rape.

Anyway it's been a useful tool for me to illustrate to my daughter exactly why if she's not interested then she needs to put a stop to proceedings and if she chooses to proceed then it's a mistake that's on her. We also had a chat about being crystal clear in the messages we send out... Ie don't say no but keep kissing when we really mean no. She agreed with me (for once) and I hope she remembers it in the future.

I unfollowed R because I just don't have patience for this kind of nonsense.

If RMC's blog post (and the discussion it has provoked) has achieved nothing more than this in households and schools arcross the country then it has achieved something worthwhile.

The original blog and the nuanced discussion around it (here and probably elsewhere) would be far more educational than the all too frequent black and white views rolled out in relationships or SPHE talks at home or in schools.

[Deleted User]

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The Thanks in these threads can be very telling. A very non-scientific look at them shows roughly a 50/50 split on whether it's rape or not.

They really, really dont

infogiver

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Has everyone missed the part where she said , 'I told him I did not want to have sex with him'.

A woman says she was raped, and she is torn apart online and on social media. Quelle surprise.
That's never happened before - no wait, it"s happened to nearly every woman who has spoken publicly ever about this.

An important conversation to have would be why do some men think its ok to keep pushing ahead when you have told them no?

I certainly remember incidents as a teenager where I said no numerous times, and the man kept pushing, pushing, pushing.

It almost seems like some young men expect you to say no, totally discount it as par for the course, and keep chancing their arm anyway.

Its this that needs to be analysed in this country.

Why do you keep ignoring any replies to any of your posts which counter your assertions?
You keep repeating yourself over and over. Its been pointed out to you that if you don't want people to disagree with you that you shouldn't post publicly, and that its not just a question of her saying no and him pressing ahead. But you ignore these points, ignore the fact that posters here on boards have been hurt by Rosemarys blog. Why is this?

hatrickpatrick

Omackeral wrote: »

If you're happy enough working off assumptions then why doesn't that come into play when she says "I let him have sex with me". That there itself implies her consent.

Because I don't and I never have agreed that not resisting = consent. Consent is active, not passive.

hatrickpatrick

Omackeral wrote: »

Since you seem to use analogies, here's one and it illustrates non verbal consent I guess. My brother asks me can he borrow my car to fly to the shops like he did last week. This time I say no. He asks me again. I say no. My keys are right there in my hand and he goes to take them out of my hand. I actually just let him take them cos I don't wanna have an awkward row with him. Off he goes in the car.

If I didn't want him to take the keys I'd say "here listen you're not going in it" and I'd take the keys away if he persisted. I wouldn't loosen my grip on them just so he can have his own way.

That in my view is theft. He takes the keys out of your hand after you've told him he can't have them? Theft, plain and simple. Whether you fight him off is irrelevant, you haven't given him permission to take them.

hatrickpatrick

jameorahiely wrote: »

Well she's back agreeing that some actor at the Oscar's is a ride

Isn't that objectifying men?

LexieOnRale wrote: »

oh no that's ok, it's only wrong when men objectify women because men are big evil bastards and women aren't capable of hurting or intimidating men.

"Male privilege" means that men are not to be afforded the same rights as women in these scenarios.

(No, seriously, this is what SJW-feminists actually believe. Look it up and have a dustbin ready to catch your puke. :mad: )

retro:electro

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Because I don't and I never have agreed that not resisting = consent. Consent is active, not passive.

So I'm sure before you have sex with someone you always stop and ask them "do you want to continue and have sex or do you want to put a halt to this and stop?". I'm just going by what you've outlined above there.
People have sex through consental body language all the time. That does not make someone a rapist.

hatrickpatrick

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

You want him charged with undressing a woman who is lying on a bed kissing him??

Eh, Rosemary has said:

Tell me how does someone remove a person's clothes (that doesn't want them removed) without being "pushy"?

Tell me also why someone who has had their clothes removed against their will would then carry on kissing that person, even when they do not feel threatened by them?

Quite frankly, I think it's absurd to believe this guy should be charged with removing her clothes when by all accounts she didn't try very hard to stop him from doing so.

Is she a paraplegic or something?

What she should be doing is writing a blog directed at young girls giving them tips on how to be assertive if and when they ever find themselves in a situation where a guy is trying to convince them to have sex when they themselves don't want to. She should be citing her story as an example of what not to do as she regrets letting a guy she didn't fancy have sex with her just because she couldn't muster the courage to tell him so.

Not trying to stop somebody does not equal consent. This is not complicated. Consent does not mean the absence of refusal, it means the active giving of permission.

Dyr

What I find fascinating about all this is the language people use is peppered with the american jargon that they imported alongside this whole nonsense from the states

Not an original thought in a lot of peoples heads

sadie06

Reading this thread the main thing I feel is huge worry for my 13 year old son as he tries to navigate this minefield in a few years time. The burden on young men is immense as far as I can see.

hatrickpatrick

anna080 wrote: »

So I'm sure before you have sex with someone you always stop and ask them "do you want to continue and have sex or do you want to put a halt to this and stop?". I'm just going by what you've outlined above there.

Usually it's not necessary to actually ask it in the form of a question, because there would have been dirty talk beforehand about what we're going to do to eachother

If somebody said "I don't want to do this" repeatedly then at that exact moment I would immediately take that at face value and assume this encounter goes no further than it already has. Come on, have you never had an encounter which progressed to a certain level of sexual activity but the person wasn't ready to have actual sexual intercourse at that time?

Since I seem to be in the minority here regarding verbal communication, I'm wondering if it's possible that my views on this have been crystallised by the fact that I've always been into some very kinky stuff ever since I hit puberty and that definitely requires verbal communication or else people can get seriously hurt. Just a thought. Like, no matter what my body language might be saying, if I use a safe-word during a BDSM game and it is ignored, that's widely agreed to constitute a non-consensual violation by people who engage in that kind of sex, and I'm pretty sure there is a legal precedent for this at least in some countries.

Of course, there are contexts in which verbal communication is impossible and other signals are a requirement, such as when a lady is sitting on your face and you're running out of air :pac:

retro:electro

sadie06 wrote: »

Reading this thread the main thing I feel is huge worry for my 13 year old son as he tries to navigate this minefield in a few years time. The burden on young men is immense as far as I can see.

It's really worrying, and as you say, the burden is completely on the male: "do I stop this make out session and ask if sex is going ahead even though it would seem like it is, or do I ruin the moment and make her say out loud "yes I am consenting" will I make her sign something? or do I just feed or her body language, what if she regrets it in the morning and tells people I raped her?.." People have been having implied consensual sex for thousands of years and now because a few perpetual victims are crying rape people think it's wrong.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

But surely dirty talk is implied consent? She could be just trying to get you going to shoot you down.

hatrickpatrick

sadie06 wrote: »

Reading this thread the main thing I feel is huge worry for my 13 year old son as he tries to navigate this minefield in a few years time. The burden on young men is immense as far as I can see.

I've never found this aspect of it a minefield myself tbh - someone says no, they mean no. The minefield is coming from other sources - the idea that regret after the fact is rape, the idea that drunk sex is rape (in which case I've been raped who knows how many times :pac:), the idea that guys should make the first move but somehow know how the other person is feeling before doing so, etc.

hatrickpatrick

LexieOnRale wrote: »

But surely dirty talk is implied consent? She could be just trying to get you going to shoot you down.

That's what I'm saying, like if someone tells you that they want you to f*ck them, that's consent. If someone literally says "I don't want to have sex" and then they never actually say that they've changed their mind, that's very definitively not consent.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

ibarelycare

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I'm saying, like if someone tells you that they want you to f*ck them, that's consent. If someone literally says "I don't want to have sex" and then they never actually say that they've changed their mind, that's very definitively not consent.

But if their body language implies that they've changed their mind, where do you stand on that?

It would would help a lot if Rosemary was willing to clarify the recurring questions here, as we're just going around in circles.