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Bust Éireann

oppenheimer1

According to reports today, Bus Eireann has about 18 months left before it goes insolvent. The company lost 7m last year on top of accumulated losses for previous years.

What future does the company have? Looks like service cuts and forced redundancies are on the way at a minimum. Do you think they will sell off expressway?

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Bass Reeves

Yourself isit wrote: »

I doubt that is true for state owned companies. Else how could any state owned company survive in Europe?

Because you don't have people in sections of society working in ordinary jobs getting middle class wages. In most of Europe they understand that a bus driver cannot earn 60k/ year for driving a bus on what in european term is a short haul drive. On one hand we have union environmentalist on about public transport but ingnoring it cost versus the taxpayer capibility to fund such services. If we want to develop a public transport system we have to accept that workers in such a system cannot be paid above market rates. We cannot have people earning 50k+ and skiving off or hogging buses to achieve a higher than normal living standard.

Jimmy Garlic

n97 mini wrote: »

Bus Eireann managed to block competition on school bus routes.

There are private operators on school routes. BE just haven't given up the routes that they service. Not a whole lot of money in it anyway so I doubt private operators are salivating thinking about BEs school routes.

Yourself isit

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What about Apple? The commission contend that Ireland interfered in the market by giving Apple a tax break that amounted to illegal state aid. If Ireland gives BE state aid, directly or indirectly them any one of the private operators or the Commission could take Ireland to the European court and they would win too.

Whataboutery :rolleyes:

I doubt that is true for state owned companies. Else how could any state owned company survive in Europe?

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

Bus Eireann managed to block competition on school bus routes.
ESB managed to block transfer of the network to Eirgrid.

Wake up man, this is Ireland!

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it did happen, I really hope it does not but when push has come to shove over the years normally people have caved in, this is what happened in the past when big disputes between the government and unions and the company and unions have played out and Seamus Brennan certainly knows a thing or two about what happens when you dare to face down the unions and put the public first.

I still believe they are hoping for an election before this comes to a close, knowing FF's record in government last time around and their nature of writing blank cheques to sort out every single problem in the country and to kick it further down the road to avoid solving the underlying problems because it creates short to medium term positive headlines that they are sorting the countries problems out, however as we have seen time and time again, this only works for so long then after a while the whole thing explodes in their face and a much worse crisis is revealed.

It's what frustrates me about this country. I mean I love living here but we really are terrible about sorting our problems out. The health service is another perfect example, despite all the time that has passed in the last 20 years or so, is it any different now to what it was then? It just feels that the same problems are going on over and over again and nobody really has the balls to deal with it properly.

n97 mini

Bus Eireann managed to block competition on school bus routes.
ESB managed to block transfer of the network to Eirgrid.

Wake up man, this is Ireland!

devnull

n97 mini wrote: »

What way do these things always end? The taxpayer. If I were a betting man I'd say the govt will get a derogation on the rules that prevents subsidies.

Which would then no doubt lead to private operators then mounting a legal challenge.

The trouble is if they do get bailed out, essentially it will mean that the unions will have successfully managed to put their interests before that of the public at large both financially and when it comes to public transport services whilst at the same time the unions will still be pointing figures at those evil private companies who they will claim will never improve services because they don't care about the public and the unions do.

There will be no longer any incentive for innovation in the marketplace or for companies to start ground-breaking new services because they will know that the state funded competitor will have have the ability to use taxpayer money to take them out by whatever means necessary, even if they did not have any interest in the routes at all before the privates started them. Therefore companies will simply not bother to innovate.

Past history has shown that BE rarely innovate when left to their own devices without any viable competition, so services will be at a standstill, just like they were 10 years with no development or incentive to improve them. A dominant operator with grossly inefficient working practices backed up with what now would be illegal state aid would then lead to much higher fares and the public will lose out.

But as long as John can work 9.5 hours a day, claiming 1.5 hours in overtime for driving a bus for little more than 50% of the time he is being paid for, earning over 60k a year, working no weekends or anti-social hours, whilst his junior colleagues have to take all the crappy shifts, have little prospect of overtime or the gravy train rotas that the more senior drivers have got, who cared

n97 mini

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A quick question for those on the side of the BE Unions. How do you propose that this impasse be solved seeing as the company is four months from insolvency?

Remember, the state cannot give aid to the company as that is illegal. Remember also that the terms of employment of the staff far exceed those of similar private operators.

I'd love to hear some solutions from those that say cuts and redundancies are not the answer.

What way do these things always end? The taxpayer. If I were a betting man I'd say the govt will get a derogation on the rules that prevents subsidies.

oppenheimer1

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What then would you call what they gave to Apple?
I'm sure there will be redundancies going forward. Companies that size tend to
be overloaded and of course changes to work practices. Routes also will probably
get hit but changes have to happen if they want it to survive!

What about Apple? The commission contend that Ireland interfered in the market by giving Apple a tax break that amounted to illegal state aid. If Ireland gives BE state aid, directly or indirectly them any one of the private operators or the Commission could take Ireland to the European court and they would win too.

Whataboutery :rolleyes:

devnull

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What then would you call what they gave to Apple?

This isn't a politics forum but I'll bite. The benefits are obvious in Ireland, we have at the last time of checking the fastest-growing economy in Europe driven by the exports of about 1,000 multinationals that employ a large amount of the workforce and generate nearly a quarter of our economic output.

The government realised that multi-national companies provide a huge amount of jobs to this country, because whether you like it or not, as a small country we need such companies here to provide jobs to our students and to help grow our economy stop the situation that happened in the 80s and 90s where people could not find jobs here so emigrated to the UK or other places because they simply felt they could not find work here.

If the government did not appeal the ruling about this it would result to a lot of the companies who have similar arrangements possibly pulling out which would cost tens of thousands if not more jobs in this country which would make a massive spike in unemployment which could be beyond even what was seen during the last recession. This would cause the tax base to collapse and would no doubt put the country into another recession as it would cause the economy to collapse.

I can't say I really like the fact companies use Ireland to set up here to avoid paying tax or paying very little tax. However at the end of the day I realise that the reason the government is allowing them to do so is that without such companies opening up headquarters and offices here, we would have mass unemployment and families would have no choice in some sectors but to emigrate or find it very hard to find jobs in this country and possibly have to sign on the dole.

I'm not easy with it at all, but all I will say is look at past unemployment issues before the multi-nationals came and the levels of people leaving these shores for the UK and other countries to find work then versus what we have now where many more young professionals who graduate are able to find jobs in their own country in the sectors they wish to work in.

TheQuietFella

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A quick question for those on the side of the BE Unions. How do you propose that this impasse be solved seeing as the company is four months from insolvency?

Remember, the state cannot give aid to the company as that is illegal.
Remember also that the terms of employment of the staff far exceed those of similar private operators.

I'd love to hear some solutions from those that say cuts and redundancies are not the answer.

What then would you call what they gave to Apple?
I'm sure there will be redundancies going forward. Companies that size tend to
be overloaded and of course changes to work practices. Routes also will probably
get hit but changes have to happen if they want it to survive!

devnull

i believe we are all important to the functioning of society and the country.

But you believe that some people are more important than others.

As usual with you it's always rhetoric with very little substance.

i have all ready said either in this thread or another that the loss making expressway routes need to be cut or dropped and the management look for new markets to operate. that is what management should have been doing, seeking new opportunities. that way redundantsies wouldn't even be an issue, as there would be work for drivers.

Of course management are not innocent in all of this, but at the same time they are not to blame for all of this either. I don't think anyone believes that the unions are solely to blame, but at the same time the view by the NBRU and SIPTU that it's everyone elses fault and they won't take any share is not going to work.

What's happening now is basically a company is in bad trouble and needs to cut costs and the staff are saying that they are not going to take any cuts whatsoever. The even more laughable thing is today there was reference they were looking for a pay rise and compensation for lost earnings in the last week or two. Only in Ireland when a company is in risk of insolvency would people look for more money!

For what it's worth the plans I have seen so far from Bus Eireann are very sensible, they will scale back management, clerical grades, inspector grades, marketing, scale back investment in vehicles to around 10 a year for Expressway,, they are not just hitting the drivers, they are taking an axe across the company to make the business sustainable.

The trouble is the union are more interested in ensuring their members can extract as much money as possible for as little work as possible and to keep structures and processes in place which can maxmise the amount of non core payroll earnings even if these costs are not sustainable for the company itself.

all i can do now is hope everyone sits back around the table and a solution is found. only the staff and management can decide how this proceeds, not me you or anyone else.

Very unlikely since the union say they are not going to take any cuts to anything which basically means they feel there is nothing wrong with the way the company is running and everything should carry on as it is as far as they are concerned.

end of the road

salonfire wrote: »

It's no coincidence this Government put Ross in Transport.

Well considering the ministers before him also stayed out of disputes, i would suggest ross's employment as transport minister isn't anything to do with not getting involved in disputes.

ThisRegard

salonfire wrote: »

It's no coincidence this Government put Ross in Transport.

Problem is he's no longer the bombastic opposition TD who's vocal when it comes to all things public sector. Real politicking has muted him and he's been pretty poor in the portfolio so far. He may surprise me yet but I wouldn't hold out hope.

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

only the staff and management can decide how this proceeds, not me you or anyone else.

But the unions are trying to drag you, me and everyone else into it by requesting the Transport Minister gets involved and open the State Chequebook. Sensibly, he is keeping well out of it.

It's no coincidence this Government put Ross in Transport.

oppenheimer1

end of the road wrote: »

you got an answer to this question in the original thread where it was discussed. i believe it was the luas thread.

i believe we are all important to the functioning of society and the country.

i have all ready said either in this thread or another that the loss making expressway routes need to be cut or dropped and the management look for new markets to operate. that is what management should have been doing, seeking new opportunities. that way redundantsies wouldn't even be an issue, as there would be work for drivers.
all i can do now is hope everyone sits back around the table and a solution is found. only the staff and management can decide how this proceeds, not me you or anyone else.

I don't get it. You're saying cut expressway routes, yet the will be enough work for drivers that currently drive 5.5 hours of the 9 that they're paid per day? You also mention new markets, but what new market can BE realistically get into?

Even if BE could find this El Dorado of a new market, it's not going to save them from the solvency crisis that's going to hit in May. The savings need to be big and immediate, new markets don't offer that in the near term.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

you got an answer to this question in the original thread where it was discussed. i believe it was the luas thread.

No I didn't and this a bus specific thread. Answer the question please. Quote an example of a strike in the private bus sector in Ireland.

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

So any news on when there were strikes in the private bus sector, just so you can actually back up what you have said.

Well????

you got an answer to this question in the original thread where it was discussed. i believe it was the luas thread.

devnull wrote: »

The greater good is a common expression which refers to the fact that you are doing something that most likely will not benefit you but many other people will benefit. I just thought I'd underline that because you appear not to know what the phrase means.

The difference between myself and you is that I believe that a public transport system should put the public first and improve the level of services to the public and this is the greater good and considered as improvements.

You seem to believe that the interests of the staff are more important than that where they come into conflict with that of the public, the staff should be deemed as more important, which basically undermines the whole reason public companies are set up in the first place.

i believe we are all important to the functioning of society and the country.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A quick question for those on the side of the BE Unions. How do you propose that this impasse be solved seeing as the company is four months from insolvency?

Remember, the state cannot give aid to the company as that is illegal. Remember also that the terms of employment of the staff far exceed those of similar private operators.

I'd love to hear some solutions from those that say cuts and redundancies are not the answer.

i have all ready said either in this thread or another that the loss making expressway routes need to be cut or dropped and the management look for new markets to operate. that is what management should have been doing, seeking new opportunities. that way redundantsies wouldn't even be an issue, as there would be work for drivers.
all i can do now is hope everyone sits back around the table and a solution is found. only the staff and management can decide how this proceeds, not me you or anyone else.

oppenheimer1

A quick question for those on the side of the BE Unions. How do you propose that this impasse be solved seeing as the company is four months from insolvency?

Remember, the state cannot give aid to the company as that is illegal. Remember also that the terms of employment of the staff far exceed those of similar private operators.

I'd love to hear some solutions from those that say cuts and redundancies are not the answer.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

there is no, nor was ever, any holding of the state/country or anyone to ransom by strikes. strikes cause inconvenience but sometimes it is necessary for the greater good of improving things.

The greater good is a common expression which refers to the fact that you are doing something that most likely will not benefit you but many other people will benefit. I just thought I'd underline that because you appear not to know what the phrase means.

The difference between myself and you is that I believe that a public transport system should put the public first and improve the level of services to the public and this is the greater good and considered as improvements.

You seem to believe that the interests of the staff are more important than that where they come into conflict with that of the public, the staff should be deemed as more important, which basically undermines the whole reason public companies are set up in the first place.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

there is no, nor was ever, any holding of the state/country or anyone to ransom by strikes. strikes cause inconvenience but sometimes it is necessary for the greater good of improving things. i believe here a strike isn't the way to go but i have to trust that the bus eireann staff have weighed up the pros and cons and have made their decisian based on the facts availible and have decided they haven't an option, rightly or wrongly. it can still be called off and i hope it will. the breaking up of CIE will come down to whether the government wishes to pay more over all.

So any news on when there were strikes in the private bus sector, just so you can actually back up what you have said.

Well????

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

We all remember strikes at Aerlingus, Eircom, etc. holding the country to ransom.

Well those state run monopolies have all be broken up and now tell me what was the last time there was a strike at a telecoms company?

In fact all these industries have gone from strength to strength. It is incredible that one of the largest airlines in the world is an Irish company. That Dublin airport is one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. That Ireland is the world leader in managing the rental and registration of aircraft from all over the world!

Public transport is one of the last state run monopolies that is a pain in the governments backside, with constant strikes, threats and holding of the state to ransom.

I've a feeling that CIE might be up for the same break up treatment soon. It might not be exactly this time, but it is going to happen and it will be a bumpy ride!

Breaking up CIE is long long overdue. The late Seamus Brennan was the last to mention it. Came to nothing after the usual union BS that resulted in the infamous no fares day in the early noughties. Politicians are afraid of it and skirt around the issue. Nearly 70 years of the toxic dose that is the CIE group and I make no apology for saying that.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

We all remember strikes at Aerlingus, Eircom, etc. holding the country to ransom.

Well those state run monopolies have all be broken up and now tell me what was the last time there was a strike at a telecoms company?

In fact all these industries have gone from strength to strength. It is incredible that one of the largest airlines in the world is an Irish company. That Dublin airport is one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. That Ireland is the world leader in managing the rental and registration of aircraft from all over the world!

Public transport is one of the last state run monopolies that is a pain in the governments backside, with constant strikes, threats and holding of the state to ransom.

I've a feeling that CIE might be up for the same break up treatment soon. It might not be exactly this time, but it is going to happen and it will be a bumpy ride!

there is no, nor was ever, any holding of the state/country or anyone to ransom by strikes. strikes cause inconvenience but sometimes it is necessary for the greater good of improving things. i believe here a strike isn't the way to go but i have to trust that the bus eireann staff have weighed up the pros and cons and have made their decisian based on the facts availible and have decided they haven't an option, rightly or wrongly. it can still be called off and i hope it will. the breaking up of CIE will come down to whether the government wishes to pay more over all.

jmlfc

Trade in all the new 2015-2017 reg buses

We all remember strikes at Aerlingus, Eircom, etc. holding the country to ransom.

Well those state run monopolies have all be broken up and now tell me what was the last time there was a strike at a telecoms company?

In fact all these industries have gone from strength to strength. It is incredible that one of the largest airlines in the world is an Irish company. That Dublin airport is one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. That Ireland is the world leader in managing the rental and registration of aircraft from all over the world!

Public transport is one of the last state run monopolies that is a pain in the governments backside, with constant strikes, threats and holding of the state to ransom.

I've a feeling that CIE might be up for the same break up treatment soon. It might not be exactly this time, but it is going to happen and it will be a bumpy ride!

end of the road

Bellview wrote: »

But the union gained zero for the drivers as the offer accepted by drivers cost same as original offer from luas.

they got a pay review after a certain amount of time for new drivers. doesn't sound much to us but it's a good bit for them i should think

Bellview

Grandeeod wrote:

Careful now. EOTR will be along shortly to remind you that despite not being controlled by CIE and operated by a private company, luas still went on strike. Of course he won't mention the myriad of reasons it happened.

But the union gained zero for the drivers as the offer accepted by drivers cost same as original offer from luas. Interview between pat Kenny and union lad was a great debate a few months ago..where union lad bluffed and stuttered through straight questions

Pity come to this but why union feel tax payers should tolerate a blank cheque for bus e is just crazy.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

nope, i take things on a case by case basis and judge them by similar examples and how they have worked out.

So on a case by case basis, can you please quote an example of a strike in the private bus sector in Ireland? You have lots of operators to choose from.

end of the road

QUOTE=devnull;102696356]In other words if what happens in the UK suits your argument, you will be happy to bring it into your argument and say it is a valid point and the countries are going to be the same but if it doesn't you will say that it cannot be compared as it is not a valid point as the countries are different? Over the years, you have done that a lot, which is what I am pointing out.[/QUOTE]

nope, i take things on a case by case basis and judge them by similar examples and how they have worked out.

devnull wrote: »

The correct term is fleet cascading and you will find that it happens all of the time between private operators who deploy vehicles from one part of their operation to the other depending on demand and win/loss of contracts etc. Aircoach have done it in the past and Citylink have also done it in the past

i'm well aware what it is called thanks.

devnull wrote: »

A monopoly is never cheaper than a competitive tender since in a monopoly situation there is no incentive to keep costs low if you know that the state or the contracting body has no choice but to accept your bid or not get the services at all.

in our case or the case of the average business that would be correct but in the case of public services i have saw nothing that convinces me that what you stated is correct.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

the statement was that privatization doesn't stop the things it is usually said it does stop. strikes, fare rises, staff seeking pay rises. i provided a country that fully relies on such a model which still has those issues. what i actually said over the years is that ireland is different in some ways and similar in others to the uk.

In other words if what happens in the UK suits your argument, you will be happy to bring it into your argument and say it is a valid point and the countries are going to be the same but if it doesn't you will say that it cannot be compared as it is not a valid point as the countries are different? Over the years, you have done that a lot, which is what I am pointing out.

devnull wrote: »

What you are basically saying is you are cobbling a few things together to try and make a point in absence of any direct proof. Which is basically clutching at straws.

I can't remember the last time you ever posted a source to back anything up. You constantly just post opinion as fact and never have anything direct to back it up. If anyone does something good and they are a party you are not a fan of, you then resort back to the usual "It would happen anyway."

i find it unlikely that would happen. it's unlikely they have busses and drivers lying around and i doubt they are going to move busses from potentially more lucrative routes to come over here.

The correct term is fleet cascading and you will find that it happens all of the time between private operators who deploy vehicles from one part of their operation to the other depending on demand and win/loss of contracts etc. Aircoach have done it in the past and Citylink have also done it in the past

and i suppose i would then be expected to hand over more tax money to clear up the fall out and pay for multiple companies to operate the services rather then 1

A monopoly is never cheaper than a competitive tender since in a monopoly situation there is no incentive to keep costs low if you know that the state or the contracting body has no choice but to accept your bid or not get the services at all.

The fact that drivers are earning 1.5 hours overtime a day and are spending 4 hours a day without even driving suggests that there are massive cost reductions to be made, especially when some staff are earning 25k in overtime, so it could be done a lot cheaper.

By BE own calculations, in a proper rostered workforce they could run the same level of service with 350 less drivers which would make a huge cost saving by eliminating the crazy amounts of overtime which is currently paid which is grossly inefficient.

Overtime should be used as a tool to cover being short staffed or to cope with delays or unforseen demands or once off events. In BE it's used as a way to operate everyday services at massive cost to the company and to cover unsustainable rotas and poor use of resources within the company.

Overtime should be a last resort when the business has been structured in a way to ensure they are getting the best value out of their employees, in BE the staff are making the company as unsustainable as possible with rotas, in the knowledge that unsustainable rotas = less work and more money in overtime, which is taking taxpayers for a ride.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

i provided a private sector transport company who went on strike here in ireland. i provided a country which relies fully on a private model and has strikes. the fact you don't like the examples given doesn't change the over all point and it's validity.

There is no validity. The luas is irrelavent here. This is a thread about a bus strike within BE. Once again please provide an example of strikes within the private bus sector in Ireland.